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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    There's also not much strength involved in standing with someone on your back. The weight is mostly supported by your skeletal system, likewise with small steps.

    There's no way you could squat 100 kg.

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?

    Personally I like the two to work together rather than against each other. In a world with even a nod towards real world biology / physics Emma Watson is never going to be able to compete in an Olympic power lifting competition, it just isn't going to happen. If I really wanted to play Hermione the Barbarian I would at least come up with an explanation for it such as magical gifts, genetic alteration, some sort of mystic chi training, etc. rather than just stating "Its my character I do what I want!".
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    In a world with even a nod to real physics, a 20-foot-tall person is going to be even less of a contender in powerlifting competitions, and yet, giants.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    In a world with even a nod towards real world biology / physics
    D&D isn't such a world.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    This came up a few campaigns ago for us. I had made a flying mounted archer. Due to load limitations on my mount , I could only weigh 90 lbs to keep my Mount at a light load with a little bit of gear. I wanted to be human, so rather than some sickly 90 lb male, I made it a female. Thing is she had a 16str and I got a hard time from people saying she was too light for that strength. But I ran with it anyway. She was just a lean beefy tough chick.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?
    Almost the opposite, really. It's not "fluff and crunch don't have to match", it's more "my crunch reflects my fluff, which isn't necessarily the same as your fluff, and that's okay".

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    I suppose the best thing I can say is that this is a picture of perhaps the best documented contender for strongest man in the world.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    In a world with even a nod to real physics, a 20-foot-tall person is going to be even less of a contender in powerlifting competitions, and yet, giants.
    A nod to and a perfect model of are not the same thing. Everyone knows that a little kid is going to be weaker than a grown man and a bear or a horse is going to be stronger than him, while an elephant will be stronger still. Bigger equal stronger is, for most people, just common sense.

    Once you get some knowledge of biology and physics you will realize that it isn't always the case, but I would still consider it a good rule of thumb.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Bodybuilders from 60's and 70's that do no look like they had an apparatus pumping them with muscle juice, some of them at least; Dave Draper, Bill Pearl & Larry Scott.
    Anything beyond Arnold's era in general, tends to look like too much. Even Arnold's era has extremes but a few guys make it.
    Bill Pearl would have an "18 Strength" heavy-set look for fantasy settings.
    But even in the enhanced-athlete real world we live in, body weight-mass limits strength. You can't have someone that weighs 70 kg have 18 Strength score. The weight must be much higher, though not ridiculous. 18 would be around 100 to 120 kgs in body weight.
    Olympic lifters, and other strength athletes, of the same decades and prior to them would fit the bill as well.
    Corney Yes, Dorian, No.

    Let's rip off an olympic lifting to make; Chart for Strength/Weight
    Str Score/Body Weight for small to medium-sized humanoids
    12/lowest is 56 Kg
    13/lowest is 62 Kg
    14/lowest is 77 Kg
    15/lowest is 85 Kg
    16/lowest is 94 Kg
    17/lowest is 105 kg
    18/lowest is 106 kg
    18+/add 15 kgs to lowest bw limit

    Frazetta's depiction of muscularity is the best i think. I would go by that.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagesto View Post
    AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?
    Yes, and my player told me that calling the city guard requires me to do a DC 5 Diplomacy check. Not all rules are useful.

    Still, mundane strength should be visible. I am not telling you to picture every character with Str 18 as Schwarzenegger's Conan. But at least SOME visibility should be there. But if you're talking about magical or otherworldly strength increases like templates, magical items or fantastical races then high strength shouldn't be totally visible.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagesto View Post
    AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?
    This is a pretty silly rule; there are lots of hulking constructs out there (e.g. most golems) who have no Con at all.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This is a pretty silly rule; there are lots of hulking constructs out there (e.g. most golems) who have no Con at all.
    Don't forget undead. Zombie have no Con.

    Also, wouldn't this mean that all ghosts are fully invisible? Since your body mass is based off of Str and Con. Any combination of -- and -- is going to result in --.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Bruce Lee himself said "a stronger muscle is a larger muscle". The world's strongest dudes are also some of the largest dudes. The guy that plays Gregor Clegane is 6'9" and weighs over 400lbs (according to google. Also, he's a good example of a guy with more than 18 str, and I'd say he qualifies for powerful build).

    So, no, you will never find someone like emma watson who has a str of 11+. Han could maybe hide 14 str under his clothes.

    I've known people who were surprisingly strong in some ways, but it wasnt meaningful enough to affect their str scores.

    Now, constitution plays a role. Say you have two 15 str guys, where one has 10 con and the other has 14; I'd bet that the 14 con guy is heavier/larger. So, an elf with 10 str will probably weigh less than a human with 10 str, but your 17 str 90lb elf chick is unrealistic.

    All said, I don't care if somebody comes to my table with a 17str 90lb elf chick (I might mention it or occasionally make fun of the fact); it's a game, and a fantasy one at that, where dragons can fly.
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?
    That's not a position put forward by anyone, except by jedipotter in an attempt to make the opposing opinion look absurd.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    Bruce Lee himself said "a stronger muscle is a larger muscle". The world's strongest dudes are also some of the largest dudes. The guy that plays Gregor Clegane is 6'9" and weighs over 400lbs (according to google. Also, he's a good example of a guy with more than 18 str, and I'd say he qualifies for powerful build).

    So, no, you will never find someone like emma watson who has a str of 11+. Han could maybe hide 14 str under his clothes.
    "The strongest guys are the biggest guys" doesn't translate at all into "all small people must be weak."
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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    "The strongest guys are the biggest guys" doesn't translate at all into "all small people must be weak."
    I vaguely recall reading something about "World's Strongest Child" - a very young, very small weightlifter. Not sure how strong they were.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    "when i was a baby, i ate a belt of giants strength +X... it got digested and absorbed into my body which is why i look like a wimp but am actually quite strong. its a part of my body now so its even active in anti-magic fields!"
    or
    "i underwent very speciallized training to maximize the strength of my muscles without sacrificing mobility. so now im as strong as an ox even though i dont look it!"

    these are both examples of perfectly reasonable fluff reasons to look like hermione granger and be as strong as schwarzenegger. i dont see why people are against my playing this way. especially when its a corner stone of a character. "i look really weak so people pick on me all the time, sure im as strong as 10 men but i believe that with great strength comes a great duty to protect others and that i shouldnt use my strength for myself"

    my position is: why punish creative thinking? this isnt a case of having your cake and eating it too. there are downsides to looking like a wimp and there are downsides to looking like the hulk.
    i apologize in advance for being wrong, im not quite there yet!

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Rock Climbers? They tend to be fairly skinny people, but they're capable of doing one-armed pullups under decidedly non-optimal conditions.
    Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
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  20. - Top - End - #140
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Rock Climbers? They tend to be fairly skinny people, but they're capable of doing one-armed pullups under decidedly non-optimal conditions.
    You'll find it's way easier to do chin ups when you're 100 lbs compared to being heavier. They're still weaker.

    Also, there's a difference between pullups and chin ups and I've never seen or heard of a one handed pullup.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post
    You'll find it's way easier to do chin ups when you're 100 lbs compared to being heavier. They're still weaker.

    Also, there's a difference between pullups and chin ups and I've never seen or heard of a one handed pullup.
    For your interest. Depending on the difficulty of the climb, climbers will sometimes be in a position where one hand/arm is the only point of contact and thus the only set of muscles doing any lifting.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by geekintheground View Post
    "when i was a baby, i ate a belt of giants strength +X... it got digested and absorbed into my body which is why i look like a wimp but am actually quite strong. its a part of my body now so its even active in anti-magic fields!"
    or
    "i underwent very speciallized training to maximize the strength of my muscles without sacrificing mobility. so now im as strong as an ox even though i dont look it!"

    these are both examples of perfectly reasonable fluff reasons to look like hermione granger and be as strong as schwarzenegger. i dont see why people are against my playing this way. especially when its a corner stone of a character. "i look really weak so people pick on me all the time, sure im as strong as 10 men but i believe that with great strength comes a great duty to protect others and that i shouldnt use my strength for myself"

    my position is: why punish creative thinking? this isnt a case of having your cake and eating it too. there are downsides to looking like a wimp and there are downsides to looking like the hulk.
    That is awesome and creative and i would not have a problem with it. The people who are arguing they can do whatever they want and don't owe anyone an explanation on the other hand, thats a bit less awesome and welcome.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    You know, as much as I love it when a Jedipotter thread goes to hell, I thought I'd weigh in on this. Can you have a character with eighteen strength that looks like Sheldon Cooper? Yes. Because it is a reasonably well-conditioned actor playing a wimp. That argument on its own defeats itself.
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  24. - Top - End - #144
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    I do more often than not tie Strength to the physique of my character, because if it doesn't make sense in my head I won't be very happy playing him/her. On the off-chance I ever want to play a 5'0'' 90lb female elf with 18 Str, I'd probably try to come up with SOME reason for her strength. Like going the "comic book hero" route, in that she was exposed to some strange radiation (read: magical energy) in the past that made her insanely strong for her appearance. Or bitten by a werebear (or some weird magical beast), cured just in time of lycanthropy and left with unnatural strength and sadly also hair in places elves shouldn't have hair. Or maybe her adventuring mom was stranded on some other plane while she was pregnant (like the early weeks, before she knew it) and it had some weird effects on her unborn child.

    Anyway, you get the idea. I'd like to note that I'm madly in love with the Forgotten Realms (pre-spellplague) and in that setting there are probably dozens of other (and better) reasons why someone grows up to be a lot stronger than they look. As long as it makes a bit of sense I'd roll with it
    Last edited by Undee; 2014-08-30 at 05:10 PM.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?
    Pretty much.

    My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

    I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

  26. - Top - End - #146
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Pretty much.

    My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

    I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''
    In that specific example, I think your player is in the wrong. I don't see why guards in a magical world would risk it.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    For your interest. Depending on the difficulty of the climb, climbers will sometimes be in a position where one hand/arm is the only point of contact and thus the only set of muscles doing any lifting.
    That's a chin up. Pullups use an overhand grip.
    Last edited by ComaVision; 2014-08-30 at 05:49 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    And in that specific situation, the player is in the wrong, but its not for having her own appearance not be big and muscly. Its for trying to be the one who dictates how NPCs react to her. Her appearance is irrelevant.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Pretty much.

    My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

    I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''
    was this ever the situation? because thats not what i remember reading... i still say "no" to high str=beefcake, but the gaurds WOULD put the manacles on both because they WOULDNT risk it. in that situation it makes total sense to put the magic manacles on both characters.
    i apologize in advance for being wrong, im not quite there yet!

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    The arguement there then is that all prisoners are treated equally, and both prisoners would receive the effects, as they are both adventurers so they both get maximum security.

    So really this houserule isnt required at all.

    Oh and to add to the examples of strong small built characters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhZDJdfUBM
    Last edited by gartius; 2014-08-30 at 05:52 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Picturing strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.
    If she wants her character to be a helpless tiny girl, despite her strength, and she had that as part of her character sheet, that seems like a fair maneuver. However, gotta say, if I found a massive beatstick and a tiny unassuming female adventuring together, and I only had one set of manacles, I'd probably put them on Hermoine. You may not recall this from the books, but Hermoine has frigging magic. Dangerous stuff, that.

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