V:tM Question Concerning Torpor, Ghouls, and Vampire Lobotomies

[gom jabbarwocky]

I had an idea for a villain for a oWoD game, but it seems like the RAW are a little hazy on some of the finer points, so I want to make sure this concept will work. I thought maybe the forum would have some fun troubleshooting this.

Basically, the idea is that this villain is a powerful independent ghoul. In order for this ghoul to have access to higher level disciplines, the idea is that this ghoul is able to acquire the torpid body of a Methuselah, kept them in torpor with a stake in the heart, and perform a crude icepick lobotomy on it. The idea is that without access to most of their higher cognitive functions, ghoulie won't have to worry about the blood bond. Finally, they use the body as a blood siphon, turning lame old human blood into precious, precious Methuselah blood, allowing our villain to work upper-level disciplines while still being able to enjoy getting a tan.

The problem is, there are a lot of places where I'm a little shaky. Can a vampire in torpor still use blood to heal themselves somehow? How does torpor effect the blood bond? Would a lobotomy even work on a vampire? Does this sinister plan seem at all feasible to anyone well-versed in V:tM lore? I'm really curious to hear any feedback.

[LibraryOgre]

Seems reasonably feasible, though it's questionable how he'd stake a Methuselah. Really, that's the least believable part of it.

[Sith_Happens]

Seems reasonably feasible, though it's questionable how he'd stake a Methuselah. Really, that's the least believable part of it.

It sounds more like he'd have found one already in torpor, and stuck the stake in to keep it that way.

[TheCountAlucard]

The problem is, there are a lot of places where I'm a little shaky.

To be fair, there are a lot of places where the game is a little shaky. More than a couple of inconsistent spots will occur over a game with such a long history.

Can a vampire in torpor still use blood to heal themselves somehow?

Sometimes it's the only way for a vampire to get out of torpor - if they've been beaten down far enough without being outright killed, they won't be getting back up without using some vitae.

How does torpor effect the blood bond?

The bond is still present, but as we've seen, the "love" a bonded ghoul feels can express itself in quite a few ways, which is one reason why smart Kindred don't ghoul mortals frivolously.

(Incidentally, in the last VtM game I played, my vampire chose a psych ward when he went ghoul shopping; a few days on a V8 regimen, and I had a brand-new retainer who had difficulty reconciling his feelings for my PC with being otherwise emotionally dead inside.)

Would a lobotomy even work on a vampire?

Hard to be sure. On the one hand, the Kindred can "heal" it, since missing limbs can be regenerated, and a vampire who gets a tattoo post-Embrace is just wasting money. On the other hand, does a vampire's consciousness exist on a separate level from the physical state of their brain? I'm inclined to say no, since a vampire can project said consciousness to possess animals and people (Animalism, Dominate), or even send it out to observe goings-on in the world (Auspex), but these are all high-end Disciplines.

Does this sinister plan seem at all feasible to anyone well-versed in V:tM lore?

I can't say for sure how feasible it is, but I don't see anything left-handed about it.

[comicshorse]

Ok I'm away from my books at the mo so this is based on what I remember

[QUOTE=gom jabbarwocky;18020674
Basically, the idea is that this villain is a powerful independent ghoul. In order for this ghoul to have access to higher level disciplines, the idea is that this ghoul is able to acquire the torpid body of a Methuselah, kept them in torpor with a stake in the heart, and perform a crude icepick lobotomy on it. .[/QUOTE]

This should work, in fact you don't even need to do the lobotomy. The torpor induced by being staked makes the Vampire incapable of doing anything

The idea is that without access to most of their higher cognitive functions, ghoulie won't have to worry about the blood bond.

This wouldn't. The Blood Bond has nothing to do with the Vampire's cognitive functions, its inherent to the supernatural nature of Vampire blood.
So the Elder is good for one drink (maybe two if you're strong willed) before the Blood Bond starts you doing stupid things like waking your one true love up from Torpor so they can realise they love you.
I remember from the Ghoul book there is a minor underground of free Ghouls, so the villain could try swapping blood from the Elder ( whose potency should make him very valuable) for blood from other Vampires to avoid the Blood Bond
Or of course you could go the weird way. The villain Ghoul is utterly Bonded to the Elder in a very weird protective way. He's decided that keeping the Elder in Torpor is really for the best for him and will do anything to protect his 'precious'

[gom jabbarwocky]

On the other hand, does a vampire's consciousness exist on a separate level from the physical state of their brain? I'm inclined to say no, since a vampire can project said consciousness to possess animals and people (Animalism, Dominate), or even send it out to observe goings-on in the world (Auspex), but these are all high-end Disciplines.

This is an excellent point! I'd have to agree with you on that, based on this, vampires seem to operate on a weird Cartesian model of consciousness. But on a pragmatic level, the lobotomy isn't for eliminating the vampire's consciousness, just the ability for it to issue orders.

The Blood Bond has nothing to do with the Vampire's cognitive functions, its inherent to the supernatural nature of Vampire blood.
So the Elder is good for one drink (maybe two if you're strong willed) before the Blood Bond starts you doing stupid things like waking your one true love up from Torpor so they can realise they love you.

Gotcha. This was precisely the kind of problem spot I was worried about.

Or of course you could go the weird way. The villain Ghoul is utterly Bonded to the Elder in a very weird protective way. He's decided that keeping the Elder in Torpor is really for the best for him and will do anything to protect his 'precious'

This is probably the best solution. As far my players go, it's the least likely to break their suspension of disbelief, and doesn't strain the spirit of the rules too bad.

Or I could just give this dope the "unbondable" merit, for like, 3 freebie points. But that's basically cheating .

[TheCountAlucard]

This is an excellent point! I'd have to agree with you on that, based on this, vampires seem to operate on a weird Cartesian model of consciousness.

Consider also: Diablerists have been stated to occasionally exhibit traits or memories of their victims, even though they're not gouging out pieces of the victims' brains and incorporating it into their own.

[TheCountAlucard]

Don't forget, by the way, that ghouls have a much lower cap on how much vitae they can keep in their system - too much, and it actually kills them.

[gom jabbarwocky]

Consider also: Diablerists have been stated to occasionally exhibit traits or memories of their victims, even though they're not gouging out pieces of the victims' brains and incorporating it into their own.

Although that certainly produces some ideas for a nasty vivisectionist character. ("Let me tell you about the procedure I'll be performing on you today. I'll be removing parts of your brain and incorporating them into my own - don't worry yourself too much, it's not like you were using it very effectively anyway! Mwah-ha-ha-ha!")

[TheCountAlucard]

Part and parcel of Clan Tzimisce, really.

[CombatOwl]

Basically, the idea is that this villain is a powerful independent ghoul. In order for this ghoul to have access to higher level disciplines, the idea is that this ghoul is able to acquire the torpid body of a Methuselah, kept them in torpor with a stake in the heart, and perform a crude icepick lobotomy on it. The idea is that without access to most of their higher cognitive functions, ghoulie won't have to worry about the blood bond.

By the rules: A lobotomy would do nothing, vampires work just fine with gaping holes in their heads. Blood bond would still apply--the ghoul would come to love (or revile) the Methuselah, even if it's in torpor. Could form an interesting sort of madness--think creepy serial killer cooing over whatever makes them tick.

Obviously, Rule 0 applies and you can just throw out the rules for the sake of drama if required.

The problem is, there are a lot of places where I'm a little shaky. Can a vampire in torpor still use blood to heal themselves somehow?

No. But unless they're actually destroyed, the damage does nothing but look horrifying and serves as an inconvenience when they come out.

How does torpor effect the blood bond?

Not one bit. However, while in torpor it's hard to envision the Methusleah actually making use of that consciously. The ghoul will still be hopelessly enthralled. OTOH, VTM lore is filled with hints (or outright suggestions) that Methuselahs in torpor are more psychically active than they seem (especially if they have high level psychic disciplines), albeit perhaps not on a fully conscious level.

Would a lobotomy even work on a vampire?

No, the flesh is completely dead and inert unless blood is spent to make it work. Even when made to work it has no mechanical function other than appearance. Might work on the thin blooded.

Does this sinister plan seem at all feasible to anyone well-versed in V:tM lore?

Sure, but that ghoul is going to be completely insane and in for some major pain if his plan ever falls apart.

I'm really curious to hear any feedback.

Could work, but it should have more impact on the ghoul than giving him super powers. His reasoning and sanity ought to be highly questionable.

[SirAshley]

There is a Merit in one of the books, I can't remember which right now, which renders a character immune to the blood bond.

[TheCountAlucard]

Unbondable. It's in the Core book.

[sktarq]

Then again you're dealing with a Methusela, so any and all rules may or may not apply. Usually any rule bending would be in the ancient's favor and make it harder to pull off though.
Also the very hint of a methusela, especially one only a single step away can do really bizarre things to character & player behavior fyi.

[meschlum]

You could always bring in the Raksha... wait. Wrong universe. Hang a purple at the goldfish, not a left.


Ahem.

The happy, helpful and nice Assamites have a fascinating collection of blood focused rituals, including a few that denature the blood bond while still retaining its power. So by picking up a few ranks of Thaumaturgy, some interesting books, and a few long term enemies who really want to find your source, you're all set!

If you happen to have a little Viscissitude on hand (it's optional, but less messy), you can remove all the Elder's superfluous bits. It is, fundamentally, a set of fangs (optional), a throat (compressible), a stomach (temporary) and a circulatory system (which can be pruned). Brains and limbs are not overly necessary. Next you implant the result under your skin (protection from sunlight), and you're out to help and protect yourself. Seems like a deal. (Not responsible for any physical trauma caused by having an Elder spontaneously grow a new body inside yours. Make sure not to feed it too much).

A much more practical and down to earth solution is to be a tiny bit less greedy and have friends. Well, not really. Get a yummy pet. Extract blood from your comatose Methusala. Exsanguinate the critter, and feed it Elder blood. You now have a (Methusala's Generation + 1) Vampire salmon. Drink all its blood, and feel a rush of love for the tasty, tasty, sashimi. This is an old trick that sensible Diabolists use in order to get their generations up really high if they catch a powerful Elder, and with minimal soul corruption too! Being a villian helps if the ST rules that only humans can acquire vamipirism (visit your local orphanage today!).

[Sith_Happens]

You could always bring in the Raksha... wait. Wrong universe.

Like that's more than a speed bump for them.

[Petrocorus]

You could always bring in the Raksha... wait. Wrong universe. Hang a purple at the goldfish, not a left.

Rakshasa? Is that a VtR joke?

A much more practical and down to earth solution is to be a tiny bit less greedy and have friends. Well, not really. Get a yummy pet. Extract blood from your comatose Methusala. Exsanguinate the critter, and feed it Elder blood. You now have a (Methusala's Generation + 1) Vampire salmon. Drink all its blood, and feel a rush of love for the tasty, tasty, sashimi. This is an old trick that sensible Diabolists use in order to get their generations up really high if they catch a powerful Elder, and with minimal soul corruption too! Being a villian helps if the ST rules that only humans can acquire vamipirism (visit your local orphanage today!).

Could work, but IIRC, you must not extract the blood from the elder, it must go directly to the mouth to allow Embrace. Vitae lose its potential when kept in mundane recipient.

[meschlum]

Rakshasa? Is that a VtR joke?

Probaly not. The Raksha are eldritch abominations in Exalted which appear to find my brain meats especially tasty, and find ways to do rather unexpected things by the book as a byproduct. Translation: semi-inside joke, whereby I poke fun at myself. I think.

Could work, but IIRC, you must not extract the blood from the elder, it must go directly to the mouth to allow Embrace. Vitae lose its potential when kept in mundane recipient.

So you bring your pet to the torpored and staked Methusalah. Not a major issue (just remember to stake it too once it's been fed). Or use Thaumaturgy to make baubles infused with fully empowered vitae and use them instead (there's a ritual for that, typically used to sneak in blood bonds, but creativity is useful). You just need a single critter to undergo the treatment, and then you can use it as a source for all your generation needs - until you're two generations below the Methusala, in which case you can chug it down and contemplate wheher you want to go for the source.

[Petrocorus]

So you bring your pet to the torpored and staked Methusalah. Not a major issue (just remember to stake it too once it's been fed). Or use Thaumaturgy to make baubles infused with fully empowered vitae and use them instead (there's a ritual for that, typically used to sneak in blood bonds, but creativity is useful). You just need a single critter to undergo the treatment, and then you can use it as a source for all your generation needs - until you're two generations below the Methusala, in which case you can chug it down and contemplate wheher you want to go for the source.

The rituals are "Engaging the Vessel of Transference" (lvl 1) and "Principal Focus of Vitae Infusion" (lvl 2), aahh, good times.

Anyway, i now remember that i saw that on the White Wolf Wiki, i've been unable to find the source on an official book with my PDF-fu.