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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    We've seen the downside to not fulfilling a BOoV: not being let into Celestia. What's the upside if you fulfill one?

    It can't be being let into Celestia, since you could get that without taking an Oath. Getting a glowing envelope in the mail is nice, but hardly worth the effort.1 But there must be something, since there wouldn't be any point in creating one in the first place.

    So the floor is open to suggestions. Just getting a lot of extra XP is rather boring. There should be something more "rumbleworthy", so to speak.



    1 I assume there's a requirement that the Oath be made for Vengeance against a puissant being; swearing Vengeance against a 1st level mook, for example, would not be allowed.
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    It serves as a reminder and motivator to fulfill your vengeance.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    It's probably a prerequisite for a feat.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Not sure if there really is an upside.

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    In SoD we see how Eugene gets the Blood Oath. The guy that makes the oath says that it is "serious mojo" and that it would be better to settle for something else. But a totally drunk Eugene can't be convinced otherwise.

    The whole scene (and the "day after") basically treats the Blood Oath like a "lower-back tattoo" done while drunk. So maybe the only upside is that some think it looks stylish?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    *

    The upside is you get to have vengeance!

    *
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    Fan67's Avatar

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I always considered it as a feat like this:
    http://dndtools.eu/feats/drow-of-the...ngeance--3200/

    But more personalized.
    Last edited by Fan67; 2014-08-29 at 03:36 AM.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I'm with ChristianSt. The wording of the original oath that Eugene swore does not mention anything about a reward for fulfilling the oath, just punishment for not fulfilling it. Presumably people swear it just to ensure that they won't forget about it when their anger about whatever happened to them has abated...didn't work that way for Eugene, obviously, but he *was* very, very drunk when he took the oath.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Maybe there is a Badass Prestige Class, and this is a prerequisite?

    No, just kidding.

    I would guess, based on all the other Oaths available in the shop, that maybe it could be a group thing (this is just my imagination running wild, probably not what the Giant had in mind at all); all the members of a group that are seeking vengeance swear the Oath, and then gain a certain bonus as long as they are pursuing the quest together. Likewise, an Oath of Fealty would provide some concrete bonus to those who were serving the same lord together. Eugene's problem was that he never got anyone to swear the thing with him, and didn't bother to ask for details (because, drunk).
    "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." - Joss Whedon

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I'm inclined to agree that it's a motivator for vengeance with no upside. It pretty much serves as an eternal reminder to the person who swore it to enact their vengeance, and that's it. I also agree with ChristianSt's point.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogastreehouse View Post
    *

    The upside is you get to have vengeance!

    *
    I think this pretty much covers it.
    Quote Originally Posted by choken1 View Post
    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

    (Let's just say that deaths, mutilation and cross dressing is involved.)

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I guess a Blood Oath is just a way to say you're really really REALLY serious about it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I suppose the "upside" would be that your descendents are also forced to attempt to fulfill it. Roy got into Celestia because he died trying to fulfill the oath. The implication seems to be that refusing to attempt it would trap any descendents on the cloud just like Eugene. So it's a way of ensuring your goals are fulfilled even after you die.


    But I also think there's simply more to it than we've been shown at this point.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    It can increase your manhood.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    It serves as a reminder and motivator to fulfill your vengeance.
    Not much of an upside, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogastreehouse View Post
    *

    The upside is you get to have vengeance!
    Yeah, but you can get that with swearing any oath.

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    It can increase your manhood.
    So it's like a penis-enlargement spam?


    The real question I'm asking is why does the BOoV even exist? Why did someone create something that has only neutral or negative outcomes? It should at least give the swearer some kind of bonus to help fulfill the Oath. Something like what Fan67 suggested. If not that, then something for when the Oath is fulfilled (at a bare minimum, 500 points on your Adamantium Rewards Card).
    Helix, if everything goes according to plan, the plan has been compromised. -- Sam Starfall in Freefall

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    There are plenty of examples of real-world oaths that don't have an advantage for the swearer. When you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth in a court of law, they don't give you a cookie to congratulate you, you know? As for the downside of the Blood Oath of Vengeance, it only kicks in when you die, and to a young person (as Eugene was at the time) your death is so far distant that you don't worry about it much. Heck, he was so unconcerned about it that he didn't even attempt to fulfil his oath for the final few decades of his life, and it's only when his final death approached that he thought it might be a good idea to inform his children of the legacy he'd left for them!

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    The real question I'm asking is why does the BOoV even exist? Why did someone create something that has only neutral or negative outcomes? It should at least give the swearer some kind of bonus to help fulfill the Oath. Something like what Fan67 suggested. If not that, then something for when the Oath is fulfilled (at a bare minimum, 500 points on your Adamantium Rewards Card).
    I think this would counteract the idea that the oath isn't really a good thing that isn't the best choice to take. If the oath had a large advantage, suddenly it seems more compelling to take it, even with it's draw back. Without one, it requires supreme dedication to its fulfilment.

    I view the Blood Oath as sort of like the Oath of Fëanor. A rash oath sworn without thinking of the consequences that merely worked to make things worse for a lot of people.
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Not much of an upside, if you ask me.



    Yeah, but you can get that with swearing any oath.



    So it's like a penis-enlargement spam?


    The real question I'm asking is why does the BOoV even exist? Why did someone create something that has only neutral or negative outcomes? It should at least give the swearer some kind of bonus to help fulfill the Oath. Something like what Fan67 suggested. If not that, then something for when the Oath is fulfilled (at a bare minimum, 500 points on your Adamantium Rewards Card).
    It exists because someone, somewhere, sometime, wanted vengeance, and wanted to make absolutely certain that no matter what happened to them or how they changed, they would still have a motivation to go for it. That is all there is to it.

    If you think it's not worthwhile, well, then maybe it's not for you. And you know what? That seems to be the popular opinion, as the person who gave it to Eugene tried to talk him out of it.

    If it makes you feel better, remember that people don't always make good decisions.
    Last edited by thereaper; 2014-08-30 at 07:21 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #18
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    I always thought of his blood oath as roys motovation for the comic... No logic needed. Eugene was angry and did the BO. Eugene died so now its on Roy.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Pilgrim's Avatar

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    The upside is, XP Bonus when fulfilled, obviously.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    The major benefit is that when the Oath is fulfilled, some guy shows up and hands you a big glowing golden envelope to confirm the deed really is dead. Imagine if Roy had known that tidbit back in DCF.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    The real question I'm asking is why does the BOoV even exist? Why did someone create something that has only neutral or negative outcomes? It should at least give the swearer some kind of bonus to help fulfill the Oath. Something like what Fan67 suggested. If not that, then something for when the Oath is fulfilled (at a bare minimum, 500 points on your Adamantium Rewards Card).
    It may well have benefits in other cases we aren't seeing.

    For example something with a name like Blood Oath of Vengeance sounds like something Lawful Evil gods might bless you for swearing, but Eugene and Roy are the wrong alignment to get those blessings.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
    It may well have benefits in other cases we aren't seeing.

    For example something with a name like Blood Oath of Vengeance sounds like something Lawful Evil gods might bless you for swearing, but Eugene and Roy are the wrong alignment to get those blessings.
    Yeah, I was thinking something similar to this.

    For instance, we know that failing to fulfill his oath has kept Eugene out of the Lawful Good afterlife, but it probably wouldn't have been a problem for the people who run any of the non-Lawful afterlives.
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    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    For instance, we know that failing to fulfill his oath has kept Eugene out of the Lawful Good afterlife, but it probably wouldn't have been a problem for the people who run any of the non-Lawful afterlives.
    But then, a non-Lawful person would probably be unlikely to swear a binding oath like that anyway, so it's a moot point.

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    "Wanna come back to my place so I can show you my Blood Oath of Vengeance? That's right babe, I'm a mysterious bad boy who spends an inordinate amount of time sexily brooding about my dark and troubled past."

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    "Wanna come back to my place so I can show you my Blood Oath of Vengeance? That's right babe, I'm a mysterious bad boy who spends an inordinate amount of time sexily brooding about my dark and troubled past."
    Im trying to imagine Eugene doing that.... ah! my brain!
    Quote Originally Posted by choken1 View Post
    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

    (Let's just say that deaths, mutilation and cross dressing is involved.)

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    I suppose the "upside" would be that your descendents are also forced to attempt to fulfill it. Roy got into Celestia because he died trying to fulfill the oath. The implication seems to be that refusing to attempt it would trap any descendents on the cloud just like Eugene. So it's a way of ensuring your goals are fulfilled even after you die.


    But I also think there's simply more to it than we've been shown at this point.
    Quoting this for emphasis.

    The upside to the Blood Oath of Vengeance is that, should you die having not accomplished the goal of the Oath, your descendants are compelled to continue in your stead until the goal is accomplished. It assays the full resources of your entire bloodline against the task. That's what you get out of it.

    That this upside is almost trivial compared to the very real possibility that you might trap yourself and an arbitrary number of your own descendants outside of your afterlife for putting insufficient effort into completing it is immaterial; all it means is that swearing a Blood Oath of Vengeance is a really bad move, and OotS has shown us people making really bad moves all the time.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    The real question I'm asking is why does the BOoV even exist?
    Why does anyone swear any oath? To establish a connection between their identity and the truth of the statement that they are attesting to.

    As Robert Bolt put it in his own Introduction to his play, A Man for all Seasons, "There is a special shrug for the perjurer; we feel he has no self left to give."

    A blood oath of vengeance, in a universe of magic, is simply a heightened version of this. The identity being made is not just between one's self, but also one's descendants -- it binds them to the task (whether they want to or not), stressing the importance of the task and the oathmaker's commitment to seeing it done. This extreme affirmation *is* the reward of the blood oath; nothing more is needed.

    If this makes no sense to you, then perhaps the whole concept of someone seriously swearing an oath makes no sense to you. The real issue may not be the *blood* oath, but the blood *oath*...

    On a tangential note, if one considers both the blood oath and familicide, it is interesting that in OOTS, threatening one's family, taking vengeance for the death of one's child, binding one's descendants, and destroying one's line are all portrayed as the most extreme moral situations and acts.

    Roleplaying is centered on one's character. But, a roleplaying character is essentially disposable -- kill the character in circumstances where the character can't be raised and the player (usually) continues playing with a newly generated character. Rich's solution as an author, to lend gravitas to characters in a story told with explicit references to roleplaying, such as the Black Dragon, Roy, and V, is to involve family.
    Last edited by Tom Lehmann; 2014-08-31 at 08:08 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    There is never an upside to vengeance. That's really the whole point of vengeance as a literary trope.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    There is never an upside to vengeance.
    Tell the Avengers that...

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    Default Re: Upside to Blood Oath of Vengeance?

    Maybe it is useful, albeit not for the one taking the oath: a lord could force it upon his knights.
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