T2+ Mundane Class: What would it take?

[caimbuel]

I think people think mashing class's together will help. Plain and simple while most want skills to be mundane, nothing a mundane can do will compete with a caster, its not that a caster can beat them on skills. They can use spells that go way past skills, soon as a skill mimics "time stops" with a skill, I may say different, but I know I will not be playing any d20.

And even that does not cover the leap, if the mundane can timestop, I also want him to teleport, dominate, and the list goes on for t2. I want him to change on the fly to master and dominate anything in t1. I think to many equate power to tiers, and it never has been that. It is about always having an answer for anything that comes around. The better you are at more things helps, but till you have to measure your actions to not implode your campaign you are not T2+.

[Urpriest]

I think people think mashing class's together will help. Plain and simple while most want skills to be mundane, nothing a mundane can do will compete with a caster, its not that a caster can beat them on skills. They can use spells that go way past skills, soon as a skill mimics "time stops" with a skill, I may say different, but I know I will not be playing any d20.

You do know Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, it just makes you move really fast, right? How is that not an appropriate mundane ability?

Granted, if a skill mimics Planar Binding or Shapechange I'd be pretty confused, unless one was going for a more Exalted/(Xefas Mythic) style game. But Time Stop, really?

[Kennisiou]

Actually, talking about a T2 diplomancy class, here, potentially, is one right now. Made in 3.5 because that's the system I'm more familiar with, but probably could be adapted to PF. Possibly also a tad overloaded with class features, some of which aren't very impressive. I'm kinda throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, a little bit.

Spoiler: Words Before Murds

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Diplomancer
"Words before murds, bro"

Hitdie: d6
Weapon Proficiencies: Sling, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Dagger, Club, Quarterstaff
Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor, all shields except Tower Shields
Table D-1: The Diplomancer

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0	+0	+0	+2	Skill Focus: (Diplomacy), Aura of Confidence, Berate
2	+1	+0	+0	+3	Bonus Language, Good Listener, Bolster
3	+1	+1	+1	+3	Read the Room, Faux Faux Pas
4	+2	+1	+1	+4	Charisma Bonus (+2), Seductive Techniques
5	+2	+1	+1	+4	Winning Smile, Public Speaker
6	+3	+2	+2	+5	Bonus Language, Excellent Leader
7	+3	+2	+2	+5	Smooth Talker, Slick, Always Knows What to Say
8	+4	+2	+2	+6	Charisma Bonus (+4), Informed Diplomacy
9	+4	+3	+3	+7	Slander, All the Right Friends in All the Right Places
10	5	3	3	7	Sphere of Influence, Bonus Language
11	+5	+3	+3	+7	Great Gossiper, He's With Me
12	+6/+1	+4	+4	+8	I Get the Gist of It, Winning Performance, Charisma Bonus (+6)
13	+6/+1	+4	+4	+8	Beseech the Skies, Show-Off
14	+7/+2	+4	+4	+9	Bonus Language, Voice for Many
15	+7/+2	+5	+5	+9	Actoins Speak Loudest
16	+8/+3	+5	+5	+10	Charisma Bonus +8, Swords to Plowshares
17	+8/+3	+5	+5	+10	Bonus Language, Let's Make a Deal
18	+9/+4	+6	+6	+11	Beseech the Heavens
19	+9/+4	+6	+6	+11	Ever-Expanding Influence
20	+10/+5	+6	+6	+12	Speaking From the Heart

Class Skills (4 + Intelligence modifier per level, x4 at first level): Bluff, Craft (any), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Perform, Sense Motive, Speak Language.

Skill Focus (Diplomacy): At first level, the Diplomancer gains Skill Focus: (Diplomacy) as a bonus feat.

Aura of Confidence(Ex): At first level, the Diplomancer and any allies that can see or hear the Diplomancer speak may add the Diplomancer's Charisma modifier to all Charisma checks and Charisma based skill checks. This effect does not stack with any Marshal auras.

Berate (Ex): At first level, the Diplomancer may use their diplomacy skill to negatively effect an enemy's self-esteem. This effect allows her to use Diplomacy to demoralize as Intimidate demoralizes, except that it can only effect targets who are capable of hearing and understanding the Diplomancer and that it does not have any range other than how far her voice can carry (if the Diplomancer can speak telepathically, she may berate a target in such a way).

Bonus Language (Ex): At second level (and again at levels 6, 10, 14, and 17) the Diplomancer may learn another language. This language does not have to be on their race's bonus languages list and doesn't count towards their total maximum number of languages known.

Good Listener (Ex): At second level, the Diplomancer gains a +2 bonus to listen and diplomacy. Additionally, she can use the "Listen to This" skill trick (see Complete Scoundrel) even if she does not normally meet the prerequisites.

Bolster (Ex): At second level, the Diplomancer may use their diplomacy to aid allies in combat. She may choose to substitute diplomacy rolls for attack rolls when using the aid another in combat action.

Read the Room (Ex): At third level, the Diplomancer can make a sense motive check at any time to see what an NPC's attitude is towards someone else, including another NPC or herself. The Sense Motive DC is 15 or the result of an opposed bluff check by the NPC in question if they are attempting to hide their feelings.

Faux Faux Pas (Ex): At third level, if the Diplomancer fails a Diplomacy check and would cause their target's attitude to be shifted downward, she may make a bluff check opposed by sense motive to play off what she said as a joke, instead causing the NPC's attitude to remain the same.

Charisma Bonus (Ex): At fourth level, the Diplomancer gains a +2 Competence bonus to Charisma. This bonus is increased to +4 at level 8, +6 at level 12, +8 at level 16 and +10 at level 20.

Seductive Techniques (Ex): At fourth level, the Diplomancer can use the bluff skill to seduce an NPC to learn the truth as a Swashbuckler (see Dead Level supplements, WoTC website).

Winning Smile (Ex): At fifth level, any NPC the Diplomancer meets automatically has their attitude towards him adjusted one stage higher. This adjustment cannot make their attitude better than friendly. Anyone whose attitude is unfriendly is subject to a will save (DC 10 +1/2 Diplomancer class levels + charisma modifier) to have their attitude not be adjusted. Hostile enemies cannot have their attitude towards the diplomancer adjusted by this ability, however if the Diplomancer adjusts their attitude past hostile, this ability will apply and they will be adjusted up one stage further (or will be subject to a save or have their attitude adjusted if they went from hostile to unfriendly) This bonus does not apply to the Diplomancer's associates.

Public Speaker (Ex): At fifth level, when using the Berate or Bolster actions, the Diplomancer may choose to effect a number of targets with their roll equal to half of their Diplomancer level.

Excellent Leader (Ex): At Sixth level, the Diplomancer gains a bonus to their leadership score equal to half of their Diplomancer level. Additionally, the highest possible level for a Diplomancer's cohort is only one level lower than their current level instead of two levels lower. It the leadership feat is banned, instead this ability gives the Diplomancer a Warrior cohort whose level is equal to the Diplomancer's level minus one. If the cohort is lost, the Diplomancer is subject to EXP loss as though a familiar has been lost and must spend at least one week and 1000 gold per cohort level to gain another cohort.

Smooth Talker (Ex): At seventh level, if the Diplomancer gets caught in a lie by a sense motive check against a bluff, she can use a Diplomacy check to smooth over the lie. The lie will still be disbelieved, but the person with the successful sense motive check will hold no suspicion or negative opinion of her over the lie, after all, she just made a simple mistake. The DC for the diplomacy check is 10 plus the difference between the bluff and sense motive check.

Slick (Ex): At seventh level, if the Diplomancer fails a Diplomacy check, she may roll a bluff check opposed by sense motive. If she wins, she may immediately reroll the Diplomacy check at a -5 penalty.

Always Knows What to Say (Ex): At seventh level, the Diplomancer adds her Charisma modifier to the penalties from being shaken that are a result of her berate as well as to the bonuses that are a result of her bolster.

Informed Diplomacy (Ex): At eight level, the Diplomancer can make a Gather Information check about someone she plans to use Diplomacy on. This check is made in secret, as the Diplomancer does not know the quality of information until it is used. The skill check may backfire as attempting to use information that is easily known mostly will just make you look like you're a know-it-all. She gains a bonus to diplomacy according to the following tables:

Table D-2: Informed Diplomacy Results

Check Result	Diplomacy Bonus
5 or less	-4
6-10	-2
11-15	+0
16-20	+2
21-25	+4
26-30	+6
31-35	+8
36 or more	+10

Table D-3: Informed Diplomacy Gather Information Modifiers

Circumstance	Informed Diplomacy Modifier
Diplomacy Target is world-renowned	+4
Diplomacy Target is nationally-renowned	+2*
Diplomacy Target is locally-renowned	+0
Diplomacy Target is relatively unknown	-2
There is no reason for anyone to have heard of target	-6
You are distant from target's city of residence	-1**
Target lives on a different plane	-10
Target is somewhat secretive (tends not to talk about self much)	-2
Target is very secretive (often swears friends/servents to secrecy over trivial things)	-5
Target is ridiculously secretive (suffers from paranoia, will kill or otherwise silence those that "know too much")	-10

*only if within nation of residence
**Per 10 miles of distance, does not apply to extraplanar entities, cannot surpass -10.

Slander (Ex): At ninth level, the Diplomancer can use her diplomacy skill to negatively effect an NPC's perception of others via slander, shifting an NPC's attitude towards that person downwards on the scale. All modifiers that would normally apply to diplomacy apply to this check, including every Diplomancer class feature that gives you a bonus to Diplomacy. To successfully use this ability, the Diplomancer must either know something about the person she intends to slander that her audience perceives as negative or must succeed on a bluff check opposed by the audience's sense motive. A successful Read the Room check will tell her if she knows anything that the audience would perceive as negative. If she know nothing, she may still attempt to slander by making a bluff check opposed by audience sense motive. The audience must have an indifferent or better attitude towards the Diplomancer before she can attempt to slander. She gain a +2 bonus if your audience is friendly to her, a +5 if they're helpful, and a +20 if they're fanatic. The Once she has the negative fact (or lie) you intend to slander with, the Diplomancer makes a diplomacy check as normal and the results of that check are shown as follows.

Table D-4: Slander Results

	New Attitude	(DC To Achieve)
Initial Attitude	Fanatic	Helpful	Friendly	Indifferent	Unfriendly	Hostile
Fanatic	50 or less*	51-70	71-90	91-110	111-130	131+
Helpful	-	10 or less*	15	20	25	30
Friendly	-	-	10 or less*	15	20	25
Indifferent	-	-	-	10 or less*	15	20
Unfriendly**	-	-	-	-	10 or less*	15

*If you get this result, the NPC's attitude towards you is shifted down one stage as well.
**Hostile is not listed because you cannot make an NPC's attitude lower than hostile, and you cannot use this ability unless you know the NPC attitude towards your slander target.

All the Right Friends in All the Right Places (Ex): At ninth level, the Diplomancer has managed to rub elbows with both high and low society. Whenever entering a new town, she is already going to have at least four NPCs who are helpful as better towards her -- distant relatives, friends of friends, or maybe just fans of her work. One NPC will be a minor government official, such as a bureaucrat, a minor lord, a member of an oligarchy, an aid to a senator, or an adviser to the king. One will be a merchant or innkeeper who is one of the most successful of the town. One will be "streetwise," an orphan who grew up on the streets and is now the leader of a small gang, a well-connected thief, a police officer who works the beat in the slums, or someone else who knows what's happening in the shadier parts of town. The fourth is a member in some standing of the most popular church in town, either a cleric or favored soul or maybe just a wealthy benefactor who the church respects a great deal. These friends are not obligated to help the Diplomancer any more than any other helpful NPC might, and she can negatively effect their attitudes, but they must start out helpful towards her. In a city where everyone is at odds with the Diplomancer for ideological or philosophical reasons (eg, a CG Diplomancer in a LE city looking to overthrow their king), the DM may reduce the amount of helpers the Diplomancer has to two. In a city that ideologically agrees with the Diplomancer, she may know more than four such people. The Diplomancer is automatically assumed to keep in regular contact with these people. She knows their names, a way to easily contact them, and where they work, as well as any other information that would be necessary to the two having a close relationship. If the Diplomancer has the leadership feat, these people do not count as her followers.

Sphere of Influence (Ex): At tenth level, the Diplomancer can establish a sphere of influence within a city. The sphere's radius is equal to 10 miles per Diplomancer level. To establish a sphere of influence, she must spend one week and 1000 GP + another 100 GP for every 1000 population of the area (in particularly high or low population games, DMs may choose to make the extra costs apply every 10000 or every 100, or possibly even further). She must spend that week making a Diplomacy check every day, DC 30 + 1 for every 1000 people within the sphere (again, subject to increase or decrease based on population at DM's discretion). Once a sphere has been established, the Diplomancer must spend at least one period of 24 consecutive hours within that sphere per month, and must make a diplomacy check and spend an additional 100 GP + 10 per 1000 people within the sphere. When the sphere grows when the Diplomancer levels up, she must pay an additional 100 GP for every 1000 population that was added with the sphere's growth in addition to their next maintenance payment. While within one of their Spheres of Influence, the Diplomancer gains a bonus equal to half her Diplomancer level to all charisma checks and charisma-based skill checks, as well as to Sense Motive skill checks. She additionally gains a bonus equal to half her Diplomancer level to any Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History) or Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) checks that have to do with their sphere of influence whether or not she is within it. While within one of their Spheres of Influence all goods and services purchased by the Diplomancer have their prices reduced by .25% per Diplomancer level. Whenever she Bolsters or Berates within one of their Spheres of Influence, the Diplomancer may choose to Bolster and Berate in the same action, and the total number of people that can be bolstered or berated at once is equal to their Diplomancer level, not half their Diplomancer level.

Great Gossiper (Ex): At 11th level, the Diplomancer gains a +3 bonus on all Gather Information, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), and Knowledge (Local), checks, as well as a +3 bonus to any Diplomacy check made to Berate or Slander.

He's With Me (Ex): At 11th level, the Diplomancer may choose to change an NPC's attitude towards another NPC or player character to be the same as that NPC's attitude towards her, as long as their attitude towards the Diplomancer is higher. For this to happen, she must say a phrase in a language the NPC understands that indicates the other NPC or player character is friends with her, for example "Have you met my friend Lidda?" The Diplomancer then makes a Diplomacy roll with a DC equal to half of the normal DC of adjusting an NPC's attitude from whatever their base point was to what the new point will be. For example, Gertrude is an 11th-level Diplomancer and Hoss, the tavern's racist bartender, is helpful towards her. The Tavernkeeper is less friendly with Krusk, Gertrude's half-orc barbarian friend. Hoss regards Krusk with an unfriendly attitude. Gertrude slides up to the bar and notices Hoss eyeing Krusk oddly, she puts her arm around her barbarian friend's shoulders and says "Don't worry about the half-orc, Hoss, he's with me." The DC of taking an unfriendly NPC to helpful is 40, so Gertrude only has to roll half of that, a 20, an easy roll for an 11th level Diplomancer to make. Were she to try to convince her fanatical followers of similar bigotry of Krusk's awesomeness, her DC would be 60, a much more difficult roll to make which she may fail if she doesn't take the proper measures beforehand. Should the roll fail, their attitude remains the same, even if your roll would be high enough to adjust their attitude part way up.

I Get the Gist of it (EX): At 12th level, the Diplomancer may make a DC 30 sense motive check to understand something being said in a language she does not speak. This check will miss the finer details, but gives a broad idea of what they're trying to communicate (for example, they may not understand "don't go down the ravine, it's trapped" but will definitely get "this ravine is a very bad place"). The DC is reduced by 2 for every language the diplomancer speaks that shares an alphabet with the one she is attempting to comprehend.

Winning Performance (Ex): At 12th level, the Diplomancer may make a perform check to make others more susceptible to their sway. She makes a perform roll and gains a bonus to diplomacy checks on anyone who experiences the performance (for a performance that is language-reliant like reciting poetry, they must speak the language, for a performance that requires sight like dancing they must see the performance, etc). The bonuses are shown on the table below.

Table D-5: Winning Performance

Check Result	Diplomacy Bonus
5 or less	-6
6-10	-4
11-15	-2
16-20	+0
21-25	+2
26-30	+4
31-35	+6
36-40	+8
41 or more	+10

Beseech the Skies (Ex): Once per day per point of charisma modifier, the Diplomancer may make a diplomacy check to convince reality to grant her the help of a friendly outsider. In order to make this check, she must have a clear view of the sky and the ability to shout in a loud, clear voice for a minute. This follows all the rules for the Lesser Planar Ally spell except as follows:

There is no hard cap for the creature's hit-dice. Instead, the check DC is 60 +3 for every HD the creature has above your Diplomancer level and -2 for every HD it has less than your Diplomancer level (when requesting the aid of multiple outsiders, use their total HD to determine the DC).

There is no EXP cost. Instead, the Diplomancer must pay an additional 1000 GP compared to the normal costs outlined in the spell Lesser Planar Ally.

The costs are reduced by 100 GP for every 2 points you beat the DC by.

The Diplomancer may make a Winning Performance check as part of this action.

When the action is initiated, the first minute is spent shouting at the sky to gain the attention of the outsider The Diplomancer wishes to bargain with. Their attention is gained, and the remaining nine minutes are spent bargaining and on the Winning Performance if she chose to make one. Afterwards, the check result is matched to the DC and if the Diplomancer succeeds the outsider takes the payment and agrees to help. If she fails, they leave without helping her. If the Diplomancer fails her check by 10 or more, the outsiders will take half of the payment and leave without helping.

Show-off (Ex): At 13th level, the Diplomancer gains a +3 bonus to perform checks as well as a +3 bonus to diplomacy checks made to bolster.

Voice for Many (Ex): At 14th level, the Diplomancer may bolster or berate as though they were within one of their spheres of influence even if they are not, as long as they maintain at least one sphere of influence that contains at least 10,000 people (campaigns may want to adjust that figure based on what constitutes a realistic population in their setting).

Actions Speak Loudest (Ex): At 15th level, the Diplomancer can attempt a diplomacy check on a creature that she does not share a language with. This check is made at a -10 penalty, and as part of it the Diplomancer must do something that shows her solidarity with the creature. If her action comes at a noticeable cost, a significant physical effort, or puts her in a small amount of jeopardy then the penalty is halved. If the action comes at a great cost, requires an incredible amount of physical effort, or puts her in a great amount of jeopardy then the penalty is waived entirely.

Swords to Plowshares (Ex): At 16h level, the Diplomancer may remove the will to fight from everyone capable of hearing her once per day. Everyone who hears her speak must succeed on a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Diplomancer's level + Charisma modifier) or lose all hostile emotions as per the Calm Emotions spell. If any of these people or their friends are attacked, this effect is broken, but hostile feelings are only felt towards the attacker. This effect lasts one hour for every 4 ranks in Diplomacy the Diplomancer has. The DC and duration are both doubled within the Diplomancer's sphere of influence.

Let's Make a Deal (Ex): At 17th level, any time the Diplomancer would make a diplomacy check AND pay a GP cost, the Diplomancer may choose to raise the DC by any amount and lower the GP cost by 100 GP per DC increased, or may choose to increase the GP cost and lower the DC on their check by one for every 100 GP increased.

Beseech the Heavens (Ex): At 18th level, once per day per point of Charisma modifier, the Diplomancer may attempt to ask a god for a favor. This functions as the Cleric spell Miracle, except as explained below.

Beseeching the Heavens takes ten minutes. The first minute is spent shouting at the sky to gain the attention of a deity, the next nine minutes are spent discussing terms and making requests with that deity and making a Winning Performance to adjust the odds in the Diplomancer's favor should she choose to do so.

The DC for this check is 100, with modifiers as detailed below

There is no EXP cst for Beseeching the Heavens, instead the Diplomancer must pay 50,000 GP per beseech attempt.

When using Let's Make a Deal with Beseech the Heavens, each point of DC increased refunds 500 GP and each point decreased costs 500 GP.

The DC is increased by 5 if the deity's alignment is one step from the Diplomancer's and +10 if it is further than that. If the Diplomancer has a patron deity, she gains a +2 bonus on all Beseech the Heavens attempts to ask a favor of that deity but a -1 penalty on attempts with any other deity. The Diplomancer receives a further +2 bonus if the deity's ideologies favor the request and a -2 penalty if they oppose. If the Deity drastically opposes the request, they will refuse outright every time.

Ever Expanding Influence (Ex): At 19th level, the Diplomancer gains all the benefits of being in their Sphere of Influence no matter where they are as long as they have at least one Sphere of Influence maintained except for the bonuses to Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History), and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) as well as their discounts on goods and services. Within their Sphere of Influence, their discounts on goods and services are doubled and they are treated as having diplomatic immunity.

Speaking From the Heart (Ex): At 20th level, the Diplomancer has learned how to communicate effectively even if they do not share a language with the person they want to communicate with. They can hear and understand any language and can speak any language flawlessly, however they are not capable of reading or writing in any languages that are not on their languages known list. Additionally, they cannot understand mindless or emotionless beings unless they are speaking a language on their language list. They gain an additional +4 bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks made in a language that is on their languages list.

The class is a tad weak in combat early on, being a poor intimidator or cheerleader for the first few levels. Ideally this is made up for somewhat by their out of combat utility and abilities as party support, in addition to the fact that it shouldn't be long before they never lack for an ally to help them. At level 6 they gain either a bonus to the leadership feat or a weak cohort to help shore up their combat weakness, and eventually they gain some incredibly powerful combat relevance. They're not totally gamebreaking until they start getting their spheres of influence going, but at that point they're quite capable of campaing-derailingly high diplomacy rolls. Their ability to Beseech the Skies for extraplanar allies and later to Beseech the Heavens for divine intervention give them caster-level utility from that point onwards. The class is definitely T2 mundane, even if you consider their Beseeches to be (Su) and not (Ex).

[Psyren]

I'm fine with mundane time stop.

I disagree, or rather, I think that the downsides should be on a different scale. Magic should be better at some things. For an arbitrary list, maybe flight, AoE damage, divination, and perhaps BFC effects. Mundane should be better at some other things. For a less arbitrary list, for it is based on the stuff that mundane folks can already do, maybe convincing folks of stuff, stealthing about, and single target damage.

Mundane is indeed "better" at stealth. Hide and Disguise can even beat true seeing, but no illusion or darkness spell can do so. However, they are more time-consuming than shapeshifting or illusions.

Mundane is also better at single-target damage, minus extreme mailman-style orb optimization and metamagic shenanigans. Just look at any charger build.

The current issue is that the list of things that magic is better at is far longer than the mundane list, and magic folk can approximate the mundane list far better than the mundane folk can approximate the magic list.

Thing is, I don't see that as being an "issue." Magic is more versatile for a variety of reasons - it just makes sense from a fantasy/narrative perspective, and from a gamist perspective it gives less experienced groups a wider toolbox to solve specific problems. Need to stealth and the rogue isn't available? The bard can go invisible

That requires you to ignore the myriad of ways spellcasters have to get around the things that supposedly shut them down.

To paraphrase Roy: "A spellcaster whose countering the counters to him is a spellcaster who's not winning D&D solo. I'll take two, thanks."

In other words, if they have to devote resources to dealing with things like dispels, counterspells, SR/immunities and antimagic, those are resources they wouldn't have to spend if you weren't using those things on them.

[Thanatosia]

Because this is a game, and some people want to play non-casters, and it's harder to do that in a fun way if the class isn't capable of keeping up.

This is a legitimate issue, and my answer is, you don't have to be a caster to be magic. You can't really make a mundane keep up with magic without something that feels like 'magic under a different name', you can however make magic systems that dont work like spell casting.

That is how magic in D&D 3.5 currently works. That's not at all how magic in D&D 3.5 necessarily has to work. Magic could be not that big of a source of power.

now you are talking about nerfing magic down to mundane levels, not buffing a mundane to be equal to magic. That's certainly a way to go, but I don't think it was the goal of the thread.

[eggynack]

Mundane is indeed "better" at stealth. Hide and Disguise can even beat true seeing, but no illusion or darkness spell can do so. However, they are more time-consuming than shapeshifting or illusions.

Mundane is also better at single-target damage, minus extreme mailman-style orb optimization and metamagic shenanigans. Just look at any charger build.

Indeed, that is why I listed them. The point is that mundane-folk get this short list of stuff over here, while over there casters are rocking a massive list, while still approximating the short list pretty well.

Thing is, I don't see that as being an "issue." Magic is more versatile for a variety of reasons - it just makes sense from a fantasy/narrative perspective, and from a gamist perspective it gives less experienced groups a wider toolbox to solve specific problems. Need to stealth and the rogue isn't available? The bard can go invisible

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that magic need necessarily be more versatile, but even if it is, then magic should be less versatile than it currently is (though more than mundane perhaps), or better yet, less powerful than mundane stuff in general. As is, casters tend to be able to do all of this stuff, and do it about as well as the mundane-folk, if not better. Such is the definition of those higher tiers, after all.

now you are talking about nerfing magic down to mundane levels, not buffing a mundane to be equal to magic. That's certainly a way to go, but I don't think it was the goal of the thread.

The point is that the way you've stated things isn't a necessary quality of magic. At the same time, not having the same potential of magic isn't a necessary quality of mundane stuff. You can go either way, or perhaps best of all, do both.

[aleucard]

Yeah, being a spellcaster and being magical are not permanently glued to each other. Several concepts exist out there that accomplish this; most Castlevania PC's for instance (Leon from Lament of Innocence for standard Castlevania Hunter-type and Hector from Curse of Darkness for Familiars (technically, it's the ID casting, not you)), and most Dragonball Series characters as well, with varying degrees of subtlety.

Me, I think that it would've been better if WotC said that everyone has magic, it's just how they use it; the 'Mundane' classes for instance focus on personal enhancement to push them to post-human levels, while the 'Magical' classes use it more actively. Mundane/Extraordinary abilities work in AMF and such because it's all internal, and if it affected them, it'd have to affect things like golems and undead too. This would put the whole setting wide open for more interesting things for Martials to do, because that 'Mundane<Magic' mental block would be nonexistent as it applies to the setting.

[PsyBomb]

I'm fine with mundane time stop.

Let's take this a bit further. What kind of spell-like stunts would you deem able to act as Mundane?

[Urpriest]

Let's take this a bit further. What kind of spell-like stunts would you deem able to act as Mundane?

To contribute, the Celerity line is another obvious one. Most of the Ranger "I shoot an arrow differently" spells. Any self-buffing psionic powers without obvious visual effects. Any bard spells fluffed to be purely music-based.

And actually, Planar Binding, but that's only from the point of view that spellcasting is something mundane characters can do, while magical characters are those with SLAs/Su abilities/other non-trained magic.

[Psyren]

Because this is a game, and some people want to play non-casters, and it's harder to do that in a fun way if the class isn't capable of keeping up.

Keeping up with what? The Monster Manual? Because that is the only yardstick that matters, and mundanes can keep up with CR-appropriate encounters just fine.

Indeed, that is why I listed them. The point is that mundane-folk get this short list of stuff over here, while over there casters are rocking a massive list, while still approximating the short list pretty well.

Yeah, they can approximate the mundane list - but they must do so with magic, which as I've said previously has inherent disadvantages of its own, such as being detectable and easily removed.

Let's take this a bit further. What kind of spell-like stunts would you deem able to act as Mundane?

It's probably easier to start from what I don't think is mundane. Things like healing others, raising the dead, controlling minds, conjuring creatures and objects, and evoking large amounts of energy over an area.

[eggynack]

Yeah, they can approximate the mundane list - but they must do so with magic, which as I've said previously has inherent disadvantages of its own, such as being detectable and easily removed.

There are indeed disadvantages to approximating the mundane list, small though they may sometimes be. It doesn't really matter that much though. You can factor those disadvantages into the lists, and the caster list will still come out ridiculously ahead. The fact of the matter is, the mundane guy needs things like diplomancy, and he needs more of them than exist currently. Also, the mundane method might be even more troubled than the magic method, as it tends to pull from game-wide resources, whether they be as small as skill point investment, or as huge as feat or level investment. Really, I don't need to argue that casters are way better all that much, because you already very much know that.

[toapat]

You know reading this thread I've been struck by a thought.

As much as we talk about how unbalanced 3.5 is and as much as people talk about the issues of mixing certain concepts together... a lot of people seem to really, really enjoy the fact that a character who isn't a full spellcaster can't compete with someone who is.

with homebrew to allow more feats a Paladin//Spellthief can be pretty ridiculous.

Granted, after a certain point, their power just comes from Number of Nightsticks used to persist buffs + number of wands eaten today

[Mithril Leaf]

Give the class a +1 bonus to skills that increases by +1 per level and stacks with itself (Total of +1 at 1, +3 at 2, +6 at 3, +10 at 4, etc...) as well as a floating bonus feat per level and standard +1 BAB per level, +8 skill points, all good saves.

So would anyone be able to tell me what is actually not Tier 2 about this class? It gets craft GP gain (which increases incredibly fast), Diplomancy, true seeing (or near enough) and enough feats and stats to become an excellent uber-charger. Maybe toss pounce on, but eh. You get damage enough that you can one shot anything, the ability to convert any sentient enemy to you cause, and the ability to destroy WBL. The skills and standard BAB allow it to have decent utility in any average situation as well.

[ben-zayb]

So would anyone be able to tell me what is actually not Tier 2 about this class? It gets craft GP gain (which increases incredibly fast), Diplomancy, true seeing (or near enough) and enough feats and stats to become an excellent uber-charger. Maybe toss pounce on, but eh. You get damage enough that you can one shot anything, the ability to convert any sentient enemy to you cause, and the ability to destroy WBL. The skills and standard BAB allow it to have decent utility in any average situation as well.

It has no familiar.

[NichG]

So would anyone be able to tell me what is actually not Tier 2 about this class? It gets craft GP gain (which increases incredibly fast), Diplomancy, true seeing (or near enough) and enough feats and stats to become an excellent uber-charger. Maybe toss pounce on, but eh. You get damage enough that you can one shot anything, the ability to convert any sentient enemy to you cause, and the ability to destroy WBL. The skills and standard BAB allow it to have decent utility in any average situation as well.

There are two factors working against this being Tier 2. One is mostly a matter of what the Tier system tries to do - its an analysis method that compares classes, not item loadouts. A good item loadout can emulate a Tier 1 character and can be used by a commoner, so if you consider item loadouts as contributing to the tier of a class, it tends to wash out the differences that the analysis is trying to focus on. Because of this, fair or not, items generally aren't factored into the evaluation of the Tier of a class.

The other factor is that Tier is evaluated at equal levels of optimization. That is to say, you don't compare a fireball-wizard to a commoner who is fully exploiting infinite gp loops, Diplomancy, etc. You have to compare the fireball-wizard to someone equally un-optimized.

The class you describe has a reasonable optimization ceiling, but the floor is really low. Someone who is playing mid- or low- op with that class will still not have the versatility or power in their focus that Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters have at the same level of optimization. The reason is that the major pillars of power you're proposing for the class involve things which are a bit too exploitative to belong in a mid-op game: Craft-based gold production loops and Diplomancy. Neither requires that much rules savvy, but both of them are very binary - either you don't use them, or you end up having a character who is going to have a hard time fitting in at a mid-op table.

Its sort of like when people slap a +100 to hit on the Fighter and say 'Tier 3!'. It helps, kinda, but it does so in a way that doesn't really resolve the big issues with the class, and at the same time makes it unlikely to be accepted at most tables.

That doesn't mean that the idea can't be salvaged, but it does mean that relying on the base game's exploits to do it is probably not the best way to go. Instead, its probably best to try to take the idea of Diplomancy and the idea of wealth amplification and remake them as a sequence of more specific, staged abilities such that it can be used well in a low-op, mid-op, and high-op game.

[OldTrees1]

So would anyone be able to tell me what is actually not Tier 2 about this class? It gets craft GP gain (which increases incredibly fast), Diplomancy, true seeing (or near enough) and enough feats and stats to become an excellent uber-charger. Maybe toss pounce on, but eh. You get damage enough that you can one shot anything, the ability to convert any sentient enemy to you cause, and the ability to destroy WBL. The skills and standard BAB allow it to have decent utility in any average situation as well.

I am missing how you get stats out of "Good saves/skills/BAB, a floating bonus feat per level and a bonus of +0.5(L^2+L) to skills".

However it seems like it has most of the components:
Game breakers?: Check(all the skill game breakers)
Universally competent?: With well chosen feats it could engage in any conflict provided it had the stats to do so. This does mean that some feats like [insert feat based flight here] would be feat taxes.

So I would count it as a very low Tier 2 because it has 2 game breaking abilities I can think of.

[Mithril Leaf]

*SNIP*

The floor of optimization actually gives you diplomancy for free if you actually try to use the action. Furthermore the tier system inherently assumes mid tier optimization level. So no to weapon focus line, but yes to power attack and maybe a charge multiplier or two. Wizards also have a very low optimization floor.

To Old Trees, I could toss up a table, but it really would just be a series of copy pastes of class features. It has full BAB, all good saves, a D12, and the 2 class features mentioned which are improved at each level.

EDIT: What would any suggestions be, keeping it simple?

[Lans]

Super detective skills are in the realm of mundane and can replicate things like contact other plane

[icefractal]

You know reading this thread I've been struck by a thought.

As much as we talk about how unbalanced 3.5 is and as much as people talk about the issues of mixing certain concepts together... a lot of people seem to really, really enjoy the fact that a character who isn't a full spellcaster can't compete with someone who is.

For me, it's not that. It's the fact that I see class selection as a buffet. In 3.5, it's a huge pan-cuisine buffet where the chinese food is really tasty, but the sushi is a bit stale, and the salad bar is just terrible. Some people see that as being not a very good restaurant, on average. I see it as being a great chinese buffet with some other stuff that I ignore.

Then in 4E, they really improved the salad bar a lot. There's more variety now. But ... the chinese food just isn't as good. In fact, nothing at the new buffet is as good as that original chinese food was. So I don't go there.

So - boost the non-casters up to parity? Sure, I'd love to see it!
Say that we need to scale the casters way back? Not on board anymore. Even though yes, it definitely would be the simplest way to balance things.

Because at the end of the day, I care more about having 1+ classes to play that are awesome than I do about how many of those classes there are or what aesthetics they have.

[Emperor Tippy]

Good game design would have no Tier 2+ classes as they are defined as classes that outright break the game unless the DM goes to exceptional lengths to work with/around them.

That being said, why in the world should a "mundane" character be able to compete with a magic user?

A magic user has access to powers that, by definition, break the rules that the mundane operates under. Gravity says that individuals can't fly, magic tells gravity to take a hike. Or biology, which says that it takes X amount of time for wounds to heal while magic just tells the body that it is all better now.

Making good melee or even ranged classes that aren't like traditional magic users? That is an entirely different story.

Take a straight Fighter and then have him undergo magical "rituals" as he increases in level. Maybe at level 3 he undergoes a ritual to constantly surge revitalizing positive energy through his body that provides fast healing equal to HD/3. Maybe at level 6 he undergoes a ritual that improves his senses (low light and dark vision at level 6, see invisible at level 9, scent at level 12, True Seeing at level 15, Blindsight at level 18). Maybe at level 9 he undergoes another ritual that let's him ignore the bounds of physics for a time (permanent flight with average maneuverability, increasing to good at level 12 and perfect at 15). And so on.

Hell, let the "Fighter" pick between melee and ranged "ritual paths" with different abilities that are outright magical and are better in their given area than what the various caster classes can generally do but at the expense of being so focused.

You can make a whole bunch of classes that are focused on different areas or with different themes.

How about a Nightcrawler like melee character who's entire focus is tactical teleportation and who's capstone is that anyone he attacks is always treated as flat-footed unless they have an ability that makes them impossible to be flat-footed. Maybe he also gets level*10 feet of free teleportation per turn to use however he sees fit and at level 8 he can use it as an Immediate action (instead of a free action that can only be used on his turn).

Or how about a straight up Juggernaught? Give him "This character is immune to any harm for the rest of the turn, this is an Immediate action that lasts until the start of the characters next turn. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the characters level in this class.". Throw in a number of other synergistic abilities of the same vein so that you end up with a class that can force its self into melee range against most any foe, survive anything that can be thrown at it, and dominate in his own area while being decent in other ways.

Or take the Barbarian. Perhaps Barbarians undergo a ritual to link themselves to the rage and anger of a captured god. Maybe they start relatively "mundane" but a level 20 Barbarian should be the Hulk.

---
Note the common theme in all of that though. None of the classes is "mundane". Why? Because the idea that someone without any beyond normal power can stand toe to toe with someone who makes the very rules of existence their plaything is absurd and needs to die in a fire.

The mistake that WotC made was failing to give the non casting classes nice things that are of comparable utility.

[eggynack]

That being said, why in the world should a "mundane" character be able to compete with a magic user?

A magic user has access to powers that, by definition, break the rules that the mundane operates under. Gravity says that individuals can't fly, magic tells gravity to take a hike. Or biology, which says that it takes X amount of time for wounds to heal while magic just tells the body that it is all better now.

I disagree on this one. Yes, magic users break the rules of reality by definition, but that's not necessarily a thing that's going to be particularly effective. Like, what if you had the ability to fly, but it were in the form of the spell "fly", obtained as a 9th level spell? What if it were like that, and the casting time were an hour? What if that were the upper limit on magic's capabilities, and there weren't so many other spells that wizards would become especially versatile? I wouldn't particularly count out the ability of melee fellows to compete in that circumstance. Hell, you don't even have to go that far. Just make fighters into warblades, and wizards into adepts, and the warblade is probably fully capable of competing.

[Jeff the Green]

I disagree on this one. Yes, magic users break the rules of reality by definition, but that's not necessarily a thing that's going to be particularly effective. Like, what if you had the ability to fly, but it were in the form of the spell "fly", obtained as a 9th level spell? What if it were like that, and the casting time were an hour? What if that were the upper limit on magic's capabilities, and there weren't so many other spells that wizards would become especially versatile? I wouldn't particularly count out the ability of melee fellows to compete in that circumstance. Hell, you don't even have to go that far. Just make fighters into warblades, and wizards into adepts, and the warblade is probably fully capable of competing.

Beyond that, in D&D even mundane characters can break the laws of physics; they just tend to less flashy.

[OldTrees1]

To Old Trees, I could toss up a table, but it really would just be a series of copy pastes of class features. It has full BAB, all good saves, a D12, and the 2 class features mentioned which are improved at each level.

EDIT: What would any suggestions be, keeping it simple?

Well some standard things for mundanes to seek on their trip to/thru Tier 3 are: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11381.0 and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ry-Magic-Items
I would list Flight, Freedom of Movement(and weaker versions), Buffing others, Extra Actions, Debuffing and Miss Chance as easily mundane themed. Of those competent Flight and Debuffing can be reached with feats alone. The others are harder to patch. Although you could do 2 class feature families: a mobility family granting concealment/weaker Freedom of Movement/extra actions and an Aura/Music/Morale family that buffs allies.

However I do not see the point in attempting to reach Tier 2 and Tier 1. By their definitions (I refuse to be blinded by the examples for that devolves into caster vs noncaster rather than Tier vs Tier) Tiers 1 and 2 are differentiated from Tier 3 by a negative game element. Aka the ability to break the game.
On the other hand, that is what the OP requested.

[Emperor Tippy]

I disagree on this one. Yes, magic users break the rules of reality by definition, but that's not necessarily a thing that's going to be particularly effective. Like, what if you had the ability to fly, but it were in the form of the spell "fly", obtained as a 9th level spell? What if it were like that, and the casting time were an hour? What if that were the upper limit on magic's capabilities, and there weren't so many other spells that wizards would become especially versatile? I wouldn't particularly count out the ability of melee fellows to compete in that circumstance. Hell, you don't even have to go that far. Just make fighters into warblades, and wizards into adepts, and the warblade is probably fully capable of competing.

A Warblade can't compete with a Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion, or Cleric even in his specialty (melee combat) if the caster feels like doing it better.

As for the other point, magic is defined as the supernatural. In other words as "things that are unnatural and against the natural laws of the world". Anything that is limited by those natural laws is going to be inferior to someone who does the same thing but is not limited by those laws. And by definition anything that is "mundane" is so limited.

So no, a "mundane" character can't fake a Time Stop. He can't move so fast that he treats the world as if it doesn't move. That would be The Flash and you know where his speed comes from? The universal embodiment of movement. Nor can a "mundane" character do things like steal time from the future or cut a hole in space-time to travel across a continent.

[eggynack]

A Warblade can't compete with a Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion, or Cleric even in his specialty (melee combat) if the caster feels like doing it better.

Yes, definitely. Super-agreed.

As for the other point, magic is defined as the supernatural. In other words as "things that are unnatural and against the natural laws of the world". Anything that is limited by those natural laws is going to be inferior to someone who does the same thing but is not limited by those laws. And by definition anything that is "mundane" is so limited.

No, definitely not. Wizards aren't the whole of the supernatural, after all, and while there are definitely supernatural things in the game that are better than any mundane thing in the game, that is not a thing intrinsic to the designation. A warblade is presumably limited to those natural laws, at least to the extent that you can claim that anything in this game is. A healer is not limited to those natural laws. If we're not talking about a 17th level healer, and we discount sanctified and corrupt spells (they didn't necessarily have to exist, after all), then the warblade is going to be a lot better than the healer, particularly at fighting. In D&D, magic often means power. That doesn't mean that magic in general necessarily means power, or even that D&D magic always means power. The ceiling for magic is obviously higher, but there's a floor there that dips below the ceiling of melee power.

So no, a "mundane" character can't fake a Time Stop. He can't move so fast that he treats the world as if it doesn't move. That would be The Flash and you know where his speed comes from? The universal embodiment of movement. Nor can a "mundane" character do things like steal time from the future or cut a hole in space-time to travel across a continent.

Sure, a mundane character can't fake a time stop. Let's assume that's true. That doesn't mean that the arbitrary supernatural being gets timestop either. The ability to break reality one way doesn't necessarily imply the ability to break reality in all the ways, and some modes of reality breaking are pretty ineffective.

[Friv]

The only real way to do it is for a Tier 1-2 "mundane" character to bend coincidence nearly to the breaking point, with the player acting as the hand of a mischievous Fate, granting routine easy access to absurd tricks that can be used on a resource budget, but which the character doesn't know about.

You can't teleport, but you can stumble across the one wizard capable of casting Teleport in the area, and he just happens to need something you're carrying at the exact moment that you need to get across the continent. You can't control minds, but gosh darn it, this orc bandit is a guy who you went to school with and is naturally Friendly towards you because you two palled around back then. You can't hide in plain sight, but you can retroactively declare that you were hidden the whole time and pop out of a pot when it's most narratively convenient. You fire an arrow, and it hits the one spot on the dragon that's missing a scale, bypassing his AC and killing him instantly. And wow, you just always have exactly the right one-use magical item stored in your backpack for the problem that you're dealing with at this moment. It's amazing, these coincidences. And they all are coincidences. The character doesn't have magic powers, and her utterly absurd luck isn't referenced as such in-game. It's just a class that commands narrative convenience.

Obviously, it would rather strain the idea that the PC is the one in control of their actions, rather than the player, so a lot of D&D players would not be thrilled with it. But it would do the trick, with no actual magic involved.

[Story]

Me, I think that it would've been better if WotC said that everyone has magic, it's just how they use it; the 'Mundane' classes for instance focus on personal enhancement to push them to post-human levels, while the 'Magical' classes use it more actively

Isn't this essentially 4ed?

[OldTrees1]

Sure, a mundane character can't fake a time stop. Let's assume that's true. That doesn't mean that the arbitrary supernatural being gets timestop either. The ability to break reality one way doesn't necessarily imply the ability to break reality in all the ways, and some modes of reality breaking are pretty ineffective.

If you nerf everyone down to the point that 20th level is within mundane(real world) expectations, then you are cutting out a good deal of meat(balance-able power) with the fat(game-breaking power).

However as I type this I get the feeling that I am misinterpreting what you were trying to say. (others may also be misinterpreting)

[eggynack]

If you nerf everyone down to the point that 20th level is within mundane(real world) expectations, then you are cutting out a good deal of meat(balance-able power) with the fat(game-breaking power).

However as I type this I get the feeling that I am misinterpreting what you were trying to say. (others may also be misinterpreting)

My main point is just that there's nothing intrinsic about magic that makes it necessarily better than mundane. I don't think that any of these balancing mechanisms should really be put into place, but the idea that such a balancing mechanism fundamentally cannot exist, because altering reality is so much better than not doing so, seems somewhat ludicrous to me.

[Emperor Tippy]

My main point is just that there's nothing intrinsic about magic that makes it necessarily better than mundane. I don't think that any of these balancing mechanisms should really be put into place, but the idea that such a balancing mechanism fundamentally cannot exist, because altering reality is so much better than not doing so, seems somewhat ludicrous to me.

The very definitions of the words in question make magic better than "mundane".

Again, anything that a mundane character can do is, by definition, something that anyone can do. If that wasn't the case then "mundane" would not be the descriptor.

Magic is, by definition, exceeding and acting outside of those same limitations.