T2+ Mundane Class: What would it take?

[aleucard]

Honestly, possibly the best way to bring Mundanes into the realm of the Tier 1's without giving them magic directly is to draw inspiration from the Superhero-type genre. Magic, Superheroics, and Tech are the only 3 things I can think of that would be able to get to parity with Magic in 3.5 without shattering the suspension of disbelief, and of the latter two only the second gets mentioned at all (ToB and friends). Anyone got a better idea for how to pull something like that off?

[NichG]

Where? Which ones? Why aren't they more popular/compelling/attractive, if this is truly a void people believe needs filling?

If I have an attitude, it's because I'm perplexed by the notion that D&D is somehow "doing it wrong" by assuming magic should be inherently superior, when the folks making that claim have yet to show me an example of a system that does not do this and isn't a critical or commercial flop. In other words, if you're asking "why isn't this done more" the answer could simply be "because people don't find it compelling." But that's not the answer that the "magic equalist" faction doesn't want to hear, so they ignore it.

And if we provide examples, will you just move the goalpost again and say 'anything that isn't D&D is a critical/commercial flop'?

7th Sea: Magic is powerful and highly narrow in focus. You get one gimmick, and it costs you about half of your starting character build points. You can do some neat things with it, but a Panache-focused swordsman will be better at killing stuff/defeating his enemies, etc.

L5R: PC-Mages (Shugenja) get some nice things, but Bushi get the mechanically broken stuff. And there's at least one particular way to make a totally mundane martial character who uses a single skill for any skill check they want (Kakita Descendent, I believe).

d20 Future: There's lots of tech-based stuff which rivals or beats out magic (or 'FX users'), at least for the first ten levels. With splat support it can go either way. Urban Arcana is sort of 'hey, magic isn't broken enough in this d20 product, lets fix that!', but then there's also lots of splats that bring in super-tech.

[Psyren]

We did, yes, but lots of other people don't. I mean, we've all seen Monkday. And there's a surprisingly large number of people on the Paizo forums that sincerely believes that the PF Wizard is in dire need of improvements so it can keep up with things like Barbarians.

Isn't "monkday" just any post related to monks in this subforum on that day? They could be complaining that monks are weak, talking about monks that were particularly strong in one game they had, suggesting a monk fix or anything else really. I'm not seeing the relevance.

Your second statement is actually at odds with your position. If real people in real games are commonly seeing wizards underperform, that indicates the level of capability they show in practice is being exaggerated/overblown.

Veiled insult? I thought it was pretty out in the open. Like. A really direct insult.

I suggest you refamiliarize yourself with these.

In any case, the point there that is "there's nothing mundane about it" seems to be missing the point, because 3.5 mundane doesn't mean mundane. 3.5 mundanes can already do stuff like swim through lava and jump out of airplanes and there's maneuvers that do things like let you take an entire turn as an immediate action. Clearly there's nothing mundane about it.

And that's a license to throw disbelief out the window and let them do anything under the sun, is it? Why even have classes then?

EDIT:

And if we provide examples, will you just move the goalpost again and say 'anything that isn't D&D is a critical/commercial flop'?

Which goalpost did I move? Do you honestly consider cybernetics and computers to be mundane? I'd love to see the commoner rocking those kinds of upgrades.

7th Sea: Magic is powerful and highly narrow in focus. You get one gimmick, and it costs you about half of your starting character build points. You can do some neat things with it, but a Panache-focused swordsman will be better at killing stuff/defeating his enemies, etc.

Swordsmen are better at killing in D&D too. A well-built charger can one-shot dragons all day long almost without stopping for breath.

L5R: PC-Mages (Shugenja) get some nice things, but Bushi get the mechanically broken stuff. And there's at least one particular way to make a totally mundane martial character who uses a single skill for any skill check they want (Kakita Descendent, I believe).

And which martial skill, pray tell, lets a bushi do this, or this, or this?

[Arbane]

Exalted is actually more or less a perfect example of that: Handwavey bull****y "He's just that awesome" martial arts techniques that are basically magic without filling the same niche as traditional spellcasting (which also gets to be awesome in different ways).

Well, Exalted Charms are quite explicitly powered by the same force that makes Sorcery work - it's just that Charms are faster, often less plot-devicey, and have less risk of making you explode if you get wounded in mid-use.

Also, Exalted Sorcery generally consist of know a few extremely powerful spells, rather than a D&D wizard's compendium of dozens.

As for being better != being popular, I'm a believer in the notion that cream rises to the top.

And that's why Baywatch is the best television show, ever.

(And no, cybernetics and modern technology are not "mundane " in a D&D setting.)

Not every game is D&D.

But technology isn't "being just that good" either - it's depending on an external crutch that can be taken away or interfered with just like magic can.

You mean like a fighter's sword and armor?

CoC - Isn't the whole point of this game disempowerment? Magic and mundane are equal in the sense that they are both screwed by something beyond their ken. That is far from the principal engagement D&D is going for, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Spoken like someone who's never played Tomb of Horrors.

GURPS - Isn't GURPS a generic, almost fluff-less system? You could call every spell "mundane arts" if you wanted and it would change nothing.

man what? GURPS has a magic system (several, actually), AND a psionics system, AND stuff for superpowers, in addition to rules for play ol' boring normal stuff.

It's a point-buy system. Keep the PC's point-totals below 'superhuman' levels, and the magician won't have enough points to be good at all the magic (ALL OF IT) _and_ be competent at normal stuff. (Plus, in the default system, using magic tires you out, so there's an upper limit on how much casting you can do in one day.)

Unknown Armies - never heard of it, but a cursory glance is showing me modern firearms and technology yet again, not to mention horror and sanity like CoC yet again.

One of the main themes of the game is 'what are you willing to do for power'? It's one of the best magic-has-a-price-tag systems I'm aware of.

Hero system - How are superheroes supposed to be mundane, exactly?

Batman.

You can certainly argue that it wasn't as bad in 1e or 2e but that is just splitting hairs. The casters still were affecting events on orders of magnitude far greater than any mundane could hope to do. I didn't see any 2e fighters opening Gates, or trapping enemies in forcecages, or teleporting around.

I've only got the 1st ed AD&D PHB, and according to it, you also generally didn't see WIZARDS doing those, since very few survived to the levels where Gate was possible (and by the rules text, it was a crapshoot as to what would arrive and what it would do), and Teleport had a nonzero chance of resulting in instant death. (And Forcecage wasn't even in the PHB.)

And it really wasn't as bad - 3rd has pretty systematically removed every paltry limitation spellcasters had on their REAL ULTIMATE POWER.

To go outside that, you either (as your examples have shown) have to go to horror - a genre where nobody is expected to be powerful - or to superheroes/technology, where there are no true mundanes left.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, once you get past around sixth level in D&D, there AREN'T any mundanes left. It's just that some of the superheroes are unfairly gimped compared to the others due to some contrafactual notion of 'realism'. Because a non-spellcaster thief who steals thoughts from somebody's head is 'obviously' a 'superhero'.

(Edit to add:)

Honestly, possibly the best way to bring Mundanes into the realm of the Tier 1's without giving them magic directly is to draw inspiration from the Superhero-type genre. Magic, Superheroics, and Tech are the only 3 things I can think of that would be able to get to parity with Magic in 3.5 without shattering the suspension of disbelief, and of the latter two only the second gets mentioned at all (ToB and friends). Anyone got a better idea for how to pull something like that off?

One approach I can think of would be Legendary Skills:
The rogue can hide in his own shadow, steal the teeth from a dragon's head, and lie well enough to convince people they're wallabies, and sneak past magical barriers.
The fighter can break spells by physically smashing them with her mace, block spells with her shield, cut right through even the toughest defenses, leap tall castles in a single bound, wrestle giants and win, kill you by ripping your arm off and beating you to death with it, and hit you five times, drink a potion, AND restring their bow in the time it takes a normal person to swing a sword once.
A craftsman can make a magic sword without being a spellcaster, spin straw into gold (or at least silk), or make clockwork animals that are almost alive.
And so on.

And that's a license to throw disbelief out the window and let them do anything under the sun, is it? Why even have classes then?

Don't ask me, most of my favorite games are point-buy systems. Class & Level systems are a relic at this point.

[Psyren]

You mean like a fighter's sword and armor?

I have no problem with a sword and armor, provided they are not also generic/mundane. If you have a sword like, say, Excalibur or Masamune or Soul Edge, you can justify all kinds of reality-defying stunts without violating that suspension of disbelief.

Spoken like someone who's never played Tomb of Horrors.

A joke module Gygax made to kill his friends != D&D. Come on man, it's not even horror - more like comedy.

man what? GURPS has a magic system (several, actually), AND a psionics system, AND stuff for superpowers, in addition to rules for play ol' boring normal stuff.

It's a point-buy system. Keep the PC's point-totals below 'superhuman' levels, and the magician won't have enough points to be good at all the magic (ALL OF IT) _and_ be competent at normal stuff. (Plus, in the default system, using magic tires you out, so there's an upper limit on how much casting you can do in one day.)

GURPS' selling point is in letting you build whatever you want - not in providing you believable worlds already fleshed out. You certainly could make a world where non-magic characters are capable of doing all the things that magical ones can in this system, but such a world is not the main reason people come to GURPS - rather, it is to build worlds of their own.

D&D meanwhile, does let you build your own thing too, but it also presents you with a number of fully-realized worlds for you to simply run with. And even the SRD, stripped of nearly all fluff, is built on that assumption - giving you the skeleton of a planar cosmology to work with, and other considerations like resurrection and the existence of creatures like outsiders and undead to provide the blank setting with direction.

Batman.

Relies on technology.

I've only got the 1st ed AD&D PHB, and according to it, you also generally didn't see WIZARDS doing those, since very few survived to the levels where Gate was possible (and by the rules text, it was a crapshoot as to what would arrive and what it would do), and Teleport had a nonzero chance of resulting in instant death. (And Forcecage wasn't even in the PHB.)

And it really wasn't as bad - 3rd has pretty systematically removed every paltry limitation spellcasters had on their REAL ULTIMATE POWER.

But they were intended to get to those levels. Some OD&D/Basic quotes:

"Top level magic-users are perhaps the most powerful characters in the game, but it is a long hard road to the top, and to begin with they are weak, so survival is often the question, unless fighters protect the low level magical types until they have worked up."

"Magic-users start as the weakest characters, but can become the most powerful!"

I'll agree that they did remove what few limitations casters did have - stuff like spells aging them and taking multiple rounds to cast. But I would argue that the game has gained far more than it lost. Yeah, you've got the occasional guy who can marginalize the noncasters if he chooses, but I find that happens far more rarely than the one who either is cognizant of being in a team and doesn't want to hog the spotlight, or who doesn't

As has been pointed out repeatedly, once you get past around sixth level in D&D, there AREN'T any mundanes left. It's just that some of the superheroes are unfairly gimped compared to the others due to some contrafactual notion of 'realism'.

Okay, I'll agree with that - there shouldn't be any mundanes left past 6th level. But that doesn't mean everyone should be equally powerful either, or capable of the same things. I would agree that a Warblade is not mundane, but not that that means he should be binding efreeti or dominating ogres.

Don't ask me, most of my favorite games are point-buy systems. Class & Level systems are a relic at this point.

Must be why 5e and PF and nearly every modern CRPG ditched the concept oh wait.

[Kennisiou]

Oh, don't mind me, I'll just go back to my science... speaking of which a high enough level gramarist is technically not magical

Discovering the rules of reality is not breaking reality. But, then, there's a good argument to be made that what we know as possible or impossible is constantly changed so the "rules of reality" is a pretty bad term.

Also, as for, "where is the system where mundanes can do what magic-users do?" 4E? Some GURPS fantasy systems? Vampire the Masquerade? (yes, Mage the Awakening is the strongest setting of WoD, but it's stated in several places that the WoD's different sourcebooks like VtM and MtA and Changeling aren't supposed to go together) Parts of ToB? Crusaders are actually more effective combat healers than Clerics and even Healers. Warblade gaining scent makes them significantly more perceptive than magic users for several levels and they can remain situationally more perceptive even after mages gain access to a number of their perception spells. Swordsages can literally just walk on the sky. They can do that. Is there a reason flight for casters needs to be accessible at a low level but a Swordsage balancing on air is only a high level ability?

[NichG]

Which goalpost did I move? Do you honestly consider cybernetics and computers to be mundane? I'd love to see the commoner rocking those kinds of upgrades.

This is exactly what I mean by moving the goalposts - saying 'its powerful, therefore by my definition its magic' is of course going to create a tautology where 'powerful = magic'.

Anyhow, I absolutely consider those things to be mundane. In the modern world we have computers. We even have some cybernetics. We do not have magic, and those things are not supernatural. The extent to which they're taken in a game is of course a form of fiction which exaggerates their current qualities, but the division in question is not fiction vs non-fiction. You asked if there are systems which have magic and yet also have mundane things which are better than magic.

Even taking things that are completely doable in the modern world if you had Batman-like levels of wealth and influence, you could make some pretty interesting character mechanics. We're just about at the tech level where you could have a computer augment your visual field in realtime with the identities of people around you, names/prices of products/etc. Its not too much of a stretch to say that you feed those things into the kind of machine learning algorithms that Netflix uses to predict user preferences, and to get statistics about everyone around you and their likelyhood of being muggers, murderers, what kinds of corruption they engage in, etc. Access to a database of faces and fingerprints could give a character realtime recognition of wanted criminals. The tendency of things to use wifi when available combined with how easy it is for a sufficiently powerful computer to reconstruct WPA-based encryption keys and the like means snooping on internet traffic of people around you in near real-time. So without anything that couldn't be done in the real world, you could easily have characters with seemingly supernatural information gathering abilities that are completely within the boundaries of what is actually possible (given funding and access to intelligence agency databases, at least).

Swordsmen are better at killing in D&D too. A well-built charger can one-shot dragons all day long almost without stopping for breath.

And which martial skill, pray tell, lets a bushi do this, or this, or this?

The same spell that lets a Shugenja use Iaijutsu for every skill check - oh wait. This is moving the goalpost again. You asked for systems in which there's equality, not systems in which mundanes can do everything mages can do but better. Shugenja can talk to rocks and ask who passed by recently. That's a cool thing that they get that martial characters don't. Bushi can use the swarming of a mob to become unhittable, use Iaijutsu to perform a tea ceremony, socially manipulate someone, etc. The different sources of power have different specialities. Which is exactly what you asked for in the previous post - magic and mundane being equal. Not mundane being categorically better than magic in all things.

[Psyren]

This is exactly what I mean by moving the goalposts - saying 'its powerful, therefore by my definition its magic' is of course going to create a tautology where 'powerful = magic'.

That's not my definition at all. Here is my definition:

- A natural or universal force that is external to any one character or object.
- Capable of being manipulated or channeled to produce a variety of effects.

That's it! It's that simple. Let's run through some examples:

- The Force in Star Wars: check.
- The One Power in Wheel of Time: check.
- Magicka in Elder Scrolls: check.
- Signs in the Witcher: check.
- Biotics in Mass Effect: check.
- Psionics in Starcraft: check.
- Nanotechnology in Deus Ex: check.
- Cybernetic augmentation in Shadowrun: check.
- Plasmids and Vigors in Bioshock: check.

Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Middle-Earth, check, check, check.

The level of power of those effects is not actually relevant. That most often depends on the person using it - their potential as determined by the cosmos or their bloodline, or their level of training, or a macguffin they've found, or even simple chance. Power is also relative to the setting itself - in a low-magic setting like Westeros, even the tiniest spells can have devastating impact, but they would be barely noticed in a setting like Eberron.

The same spell that lets a Shugenja use Iaijutsu for every skill check - oh wait. This is moving the goalpost again. You asked for systems in which there's equality, not systems in which mundanes can do everything mages can do but better. Shugenja can talk to rocks and ask who passed by recently. That's a cool thing that they get that martial characters don't. Bushi can use the swarming of a mob to become unhittable, use Iaijutsu to perform a tea ceremony, socially manipulate someone, etc. The different sources of power have different specialities. Which is exactly what you asked for in the previous post - magic and mundane being equal. Not mundane being categorically better than magic in all things.

Er... are you honestly attempting to tell me that a tea ceremony is equal to creating impervious extradimensional space or eradicating matter?

[georgie_leech]

That's not my definition at all. Here is my definition:

- A natural or universal force that is external to any one character or object.
- Capable of being manipulated or channeled to produce a variety of effects.

That's it! It's that simple. Let's run through some examples:

By that definition, isn't electromagnetism, a force that is universal, isn't inherently tied to one particular character or object, and capable of being manipulated to produce effects ranging from computers to radio waves to lightning to heat to light to the internet we're posting on, magic?

[PsyBomb]

Alright, things I've pulled from this thread:

1) Mundane was probably the wrong word to use. Martial or else non-Primary-Spellcasting would have been better
-In this context, things like the Supernatural Arts of ToB and MoI qualify, which I'd personally be fine with

2) The actual conditions need to be better defined
-There was massive disagreement of where "Mundane" blended into "Supernatural" and what this meant.

3) Nothing gets the blood going quite like a balance thread on this forum...

Anyway, we need to establish a common set of criteria for this discussion if we're going to get anywhere other than insults and balance arguments. Since I'm responsible for creating this thread, I'll attempt to set them out here.

1) The defining quality that marks the difference between Mundane and Magical is more than mere fluff. In DnD, being a Spellcaster with six or more levels of spellcasting is well past this line, and the 4-level casters are in a dark grey zone. Gaining scads of SP abilities counts.

2) The idea is to be a guy whose initial purpose was NOT to use Magic (or Psionics or the Force or High Technology or whatever else you want to call it) as his primary means of making his way, but could possibly use it in SUPPORT of his main deal (whether that is being able to steal the teeth out of dragon's mouth, mounted-charge through a castle wall, split a bullet with an Iaijutsu strike, or pick a single gnat out of a cloud and shoot it, hitting none of the others)

3) "Mundane" is NOT meant to limit people to what is possible in the world we currently inhabit! Past level 6, physics is meant to be more of a suggestion even for completely non-magical techniques. By 20, it's not even a very strong suggestion, more like the check box next to "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions" thing.

[Psyren]

By that definition, isn't electromagnetism, a force that is universal, isn't inherently tied to one particular character or object, and capable of being manipulated to produce effects ranging from computers to radio waves to lightning to heat to light to the internet we're posting on, magic?

Bold is the key part of your question. How do you manipulate such a force in D&D? Just about any means you can devise would be tantamount to magic, and therefore the answer to your question would easily be yes.

[georgie_leech]

Bold is the key part of your question. How do you manipulate such a force in D&D? Just about any means you can devise would be tantamount to magic, and therefore the answer to your question would easily be yes.

Let me rephrase that. Those are all qualities possessed by electromagnetism in real life. By this definition, computers run thanks to magic?

[Anlashok]

That's not my definition at all. Here is my definition:

- A natural or universal force that is external to any one character or object.
- Capable of being manipulated or channeled to produce a variety of effects.

So then you've changed your position on diplomacy mind control then?

[Psyren]

Let me rephrase that. Those are all qualities possessed by electromagnetism in real life. By this definition, computers run thanks to magic?

I'm not sure why you're rephrasing it, because the point is the same. Yes, things we consider par for the course today would be considered magic in D&D I mean, just look at the diseases or alchemical items chapters.

So then you've changed your position on diplomacy mind control then?

Diplomatic skill, like any other skill, is not a force that is external to a character.

[Anlashok]

Diplomatic skill, like any other skill, is not a force that is external to a character.

No, but the act of vibrating the air through specific gestures and utterances to convey a message of power clearly is the act of manipulating an external force. Hell, it even sounds magical.

[Emperor Tippy]

2) The idea is to be a guy whose initial purpose was NOT to use Magic (or Psionics or the Force or High Technology or whatever else you want to call it) as his primary means of making his way, but could possibly use it in SUPPORT of his main deal (whether that is being able to steal the teeth out of dragon's mouth, mounted-charge through a castle wall, split a bullet with an Iaijutsu strike, or pick a single gnat out of a cloud and shoot it, hitting none of the others)

3) "Mundane" is NOT meant to limit people to what is possible in the world we currently inhabit! Past level 6, physics is meant to be more of a suggestion even for completely non-magical techniques. By 20, it's not even a very strong suggestion, more like the check box next to "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions" thing.

On point one, Tome of Battle explicitly calls what its classes can do "magic". It's a non traditional form of magic that isn't arcane or divine but it is explicitly not mighty thews or raw natural skill or the like.

On the second point, one of the most common complaints about high level D&D is that the Barbarian can fall from orbit and walk away just fine or go for a morning swim in lava and get nothing worse than sunburn. The easiest solution to that problem is to do the reasonable thing and just say "It's magic.

---
As for the general question, you just take the various spells that make a class Tier 2, throw them on any old base, give them those spells as (Ex) abilities, and call it mundane.

The problem with doing that is that it shatters disbelief for the vast majority of people. Are you really turning yourself into the form of any creature that you desire along with all of its abilities because of your mighty thews? Or are your farts so special that they just force outsiders to appear before you and obey you? Or are your punches just so special that you can produce utterly loyal copies of any creature that you can think of by punching a tree?

Tier 2 classes are Tier 2 because of Shapechange, Gate, the Planar Binding line, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and/or possibly Mindrape. A class that has any one of those abilities has the raw power required for Tier 2 and virtually no class without at least one of those abilities is considered Tier 2.

The bare handful of classes that have one of those abilities and aren't Tier 2 are that way because the rest of the class is generally utter crap (Truenamer, Healer). The one actual exception is Factotum as it is a good class and does have native access to Planar Binding, I have also argued before that it really should be tier 2 because of that fact.

[Psyren]

No, but the act of vibrating the air through specific gestures and utterances to convey a message of power clearly is the act of manipulating an external force.

Air is not a force, and there is no power inherent to the message. The value of a diplomatic treatise/offer depends entirely on the actors involved; it's mundane. And I've already said that 3.5 Diplomacy is badly designed. (The Giant agrees as well.)

Compare to a charm spell - there is a universal force (magic, the weave, what have you) that adjusts their attitude against their will and regardless of what you actually say. In fact, what you say is the same every time (i.e. the verbal component) regardless of the circumstance/scenario, target (beyond basic legality) and even what you hope to achieve.

On point one, Tome of Battle explicitly calls what its classes can do "magic". It's a non traditional form of magic that isn't arcane or divine but it is explicitly not mighty thews or raw natural skill or the like.

On the second point, one of the most common complaints about high level D&D is that the Barbarian can fall from orbit and walk away just fine or go for a morning swim in lava and get nothing worse than sunburn. The easiest solution to that problem is to do the reasonable thing and just say "It's magic.

---
As for the general question, you just take the various spells that make a class Tier 2, throw them on any old base, give them those spells as (Ex) abilities, and call it mundane.

The problem with doing that is that it shatters disbelief for the vast majority of people. Are you really turning yourself into the form of any creature that you desire along with all of its abilities because of your mighty thews? Or are your farts so special that they just force outsiders to appear before you and obey you? Or are your punches just so special that you can produce utterly loyal copies of any creature that you can think of by punching a tree?

Tier 2 classes are Tier 2 because of Shapechange, Gate, the Planar Binding line, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and/or possibly Mindrape. A class that has any one of those abilities has the raw power required for Tier 2 and virtually no class without at least one of those abilities is considered Tier 2.

The bare handful of classes that have one of those abilities and aren't Tier 2 are that way because the rest of the class is generally utter crap (Truenamer, Healer). The one actual exception is Factotum as it is a good class and does have native access to Planar Binding, I have also argued before that it really should be tier 2 because of that fact.

+1 again.

[georgie_leech]

I'm not sure why you're rephrasing it, because the point is the same. Yes, things we consider par for the course today would be considered magic in D&D I mean, just look at the diseases or alchemical items chapters.

Then I'm not sure what productive dialogue can be had when things that are evidently non-magic can be considered magic. You've taken your premise (that magic is more powerful than non-magic) and appear to be using it to argue that extremely versatile and powerful non-magic (like technology such as computers) is magic.

[aleucard]

As for the general question, you just take the various spells that make a class Tier 2, throw them on any old base, give them those spells as (Ex) abilities, and call it mundane.

The problem with doing that is that it shatters disbelief for the vast majority of people. Are you really turning yourself into the form of any creature that you desire along with all of its abilities because of your mighty thews? Or are your farts so special that they just force outsiders to appear before you and obey you? Or are your punches just so special that you can produce utterly loyal copies of any creature that you can think of by punching a tree?

Tier 2 classes are Tier 2 because of Shapechange, Gate, the Planar Binding line, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and/or possibly Mindrape. A class that has any one of those abilities has the raw power required for Tier 2 and virtually no class without at least one of those abilities is considered Tier 2.

The bare handful of classes that have one of those abilities and aren't Tier 2 are that way because the rest of the class is generally utter crap (Truenamer, Healer). The one actual exception is Factotum as it is a good class and does have native access to Planar Binding, I have also argued before that it really should be tier 2 because of that fact.

I'm thinking that it's less these specific spells that should be added and refluffed and more that 'Mundanes' should have abilities that accomplish the end results with comparable success. How exactly such a thing would be accomplished is beyond my understanding, but still, isolating what the issue is helps.

So, what do all of these have in common? Being under the umbrella of Minionmancy would be technically correct, but as the Summon Monster series and its relatives isn't on that list, there must be something else they have in common. My theory is that the driving point is the truly obnoxiously wide range of abilities that these give, but such a thing would be hard to make viable for a Mundane character while both maintaining that feel and making it Minionmancy with the exception of something to the tune of Leadership, and that way lay madness. What needs to happen, thus, is for Mundanes to be able to stand in for a lot of the utility that you'd call in those Minions for, preferably good enough to justify the characters that take these classes using up party slots at appropriately-optimized tables. Failing that, they need to be able to stand in what few areas they CAN cover to a greater degree than any level-appropriate Minion that could be found at that level of optimization. The issue is that these fields are rarely of the 'heavy assault' and 'meat shield' varieties past low-op, which is a large part of what non-stealth Mundane characters are all about.

You know, Tippy, I'm actually interested in seeing your Homebrew 'Mundane' classes, and possibly any other Homebrew you have. any chance you could post a link?

EDIT: Georgie, as far as I at least am concerned, the issue is not that Tech is Magic, but that (in 3.5) it is amazingly difficult to have Tech have a distinct feel from Magic in practicality, whether it is Casting or Magic Items. Of course, there's also the problem of me not really having much of an idea of a 'feel' that hasn't already been taken by something else in 3.5, but hopefully you get the idea.

[Arbane]

Let me rephrase that. Those are all qualities possessed by electromagnetism in real life. By this definition, computers run thanks to magic?

****ing magnets, how do they work?

[The Insanity]

I'm wondering what kind of use would Time Stop be to a mundane character (other than just fleeing), considering the spells limitations?

[Psyren]

Then I'm not sure what productive dialogue can be had when things that are evidently non-magic can be considered magic. You've taken your premise (that magic is more powerful than non-magic) and appear to be using it to argue that extremely versatile and powerful non-magic (like technology such as computers) is magic.

I suppose not.

I'm wondering what kind of use would Time Stop be to a mundane character (other than just fleeing), considering the spells limitations?

It isn't, but we already have the martial version - the Time Stands Still maneuver from ToB.

[Pan151]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arcane magic manipulates raw elemental energy, according to certain laws and principles that only arcane casters are sufficiently familiar with.
Technology manipulates raw energy according to certain laws and principles that only technichians are sufficiently familiar with.

No, technology is not mundane.

[Psyren]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arcane magic manipulates raw elemental energy, according to certain laws and principles that only arcane casters are sufficiently familiar with.
Technology manipulates raw energy according to certain laws and principles that only technichians are sufficiently familiar with.

No, technology is not mundane.

Thank you, particularly for the Arthur C. Clarke quote. Somebody gets it.

[sonofzeal]

T2 Mundane Class?


By the definitions...... "Skull Knight". It's exactly like Fighter, except instead of the lvl 12 feat, it gets "Sword of Resonance (Ex)" where, 1/round as a Standard Action, it can cut a rift between planes - functions as Plane Shift, except with total precision in arrival location, and you can see that location before you decide to complete the action (people on the other side don't see you though).


There. Not a class I'd advocate playing, but technically T2.

[eggynack]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arcane magic manipulates raw elemental energy, according to certain laws and principles that only arcane casters are sufficiently familiar with.
Technology manipulates raw energy according to certain laws and principles that only technichians are sufficiently familiar with.

No, technology is not mundane.

I come to the opposite conclusion. Magic is mundane.

[Pan151]

I come to the opposite conclusion. Magic is mundane.

I come to the conclusion that we first need to decide on a universal definition of mundane before we can continue the discussion...

[eggynack]

I come to the conclusion that we first need to decide on a universal definition of mundane before we can continue the discussion...

Possibly. I think the idea is that the premises at hand can support either conclusion though. As is, it looks like the main definition at work is common or banal, which is more dependent on the setting than on the object itself. In particular, a machine gun is pretty mundane here, and not in D&D world, while magic is probably pretty mundane in D&D world, and not here. By that reasoning, magic and mundane aren't mutually exclusive, but neither are they mutually inclusive, if that's a phrase that exists.

[Arbane]

I come to the opposite conclusion. Magic is mundane.

Well, D&D magic has about as much awe and mystery as order an Extra Value Meal, but I don't know if I'd go THAT far...

Er... are you honestly attempting to tell me that a tea ceremony is equal to creating impervious extradimensional space or eradicating matter?

It's been a long time since I looked at L5R's rules, but I don't think ANYONE gets that level of power in that setting. Nope. All hail our Caster Overlords in yet another game.

[Raven777]

I come to the conclusion that we first need to decide on a universal definition of mundane before we can continue the discussion...

I think "mundane", in this thread's context, might stand for "accomplishing one's goals through one's own physical abilities".

Which is why I keep believing that expecting "mundane" characters to reach the same level of power as those enhancing their abilities through magic is patently inane. It would be like expecting a superbly trained marathon runner in cotton shorts to outrun a guy who uses a top of the line bicycle and performance enhancing drugs. Doable, but unlikely. Just like in D&D.

I'm not saying that nobody should play the marathon runner. I'm saying we should at least give him rollerblades.