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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    I suspect that we will continue to drift close to the revelation, but not quite get there, because that sets up lots of cool intra-party friction to write about. I'm always up for some good making-Belkar-jump-off-the-ship slapstick.

    Eventually, some incredible new thing none of us thought about in advance will explode the High Priest's cover in a suitably dramatic way, at exactly the right time for maximum party difficulty and challenge.

    Something completely unpredictable - Redcloak tries to control the vampire, not realizing that there are two different minds involved, and accidentally frees Durkon, or some such.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2014-10-14 at 09:25 AM.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    There will be no reveal. He'll die as a martyr.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    There will be no reveal. He'll die as a martyr.
    He ... already did.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    He ... already did.
    He'll die twice.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by XxXU2XxX View Post
    Vaarsuvius I admit is a bit trickier. I don't quite know how he/she will find out exactly, but he/she is the crucial piece required to checkmate the King. Perhaps amidst a battle, Durkula will make a crucial magical error; an error no Lawful Good cleric could make.
    Everyone already knows and accepts that Durkula is Evil.

    V has probably already started memorizing a spell selection to be prepared for a potential altercation with a vampire. Being prepared comes naturally.

    Of course, I think that V probably doesn't care who Durkula worships. What matters is if Durkula will impede in V's mission. If Hel is just out to spite Thor somehow, that inherently isn't V's problem. If Hel's plan also impedes V's plan... then V cares.

    [Edit: Also, by "caring" I mean... "Greater Dispel Magic! Sunburst!"]
    Last edited by Gusion; 2014-11-14 at 07:56 PM.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    I believe that the Order will realize that it's not Durkon when HPoH will bring death & destruction to the dwarven lands.
    I feel that such is likely. HPoH and Hel seem to have somewhat concrete secret plans where some degree of haste in the near term is desirable. At some point, the Order is no longer a significant asset, while they are still strong enough to get lucky and win a direct confrontation. The HPoH has a half-baked excuse in hand: "You all save the world, because I urgently need to help my homeland with ___________". The HPoH, being not particularly people savvy, could easily misplay that.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    General comment: Do not underestimate the Giant's skill as a writer. He knows how to feed you enough hints to help you get in the right vicinity, and enough subtlety that he throws wonderful well motivated curveballs into the mix.

    I nailed about 75% of the details, on the nose, about Malack's vampirism approximately a million years before anyone else did. And the remaining 25% of my predictions were about 180 degrees wrong, wonderfully so.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    General comment: Do not underestimate the Giant's skill as a writer. He knows how to feed you enough hints to help you get in the right vicinity, and enough subtlety that he throws wonderful well motivated curveballs into the mix.

    I nailed about 75% of the details, on the nose, about Malack's vampirism approximately a million years before anyone else did. And the remaining 25% of my predictions were about 180 degrees wrong, wonderfully so.
    I've had my share of predictions come true in the comic(most of which were undocumented). I have to hand it to Rich, he really set everything up for an awesome book six. Durkon as a vampire, Roy being aware of V's actions. Belkar still trying to put up a facade of "character growth".

    I just hope we get something as awesome as the Roy vs Thog battle was. I think I've read that more than anything.

    I stick by my earlier predictions for Durkula, mostly because one has already come half-true.
    Last edited by RighteousWarior; 2014-11-14 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Forgot the "H" in "Thog"

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by RighteousWarior View Post
    Belkar still trying to put up a facade of "character growth".
    I wonder if Belkar's "fake character growth" becoming real (which I think is happening, no matter what) doesn't foreshadow in some way what the ultimate resolution of the HPoH's story will be.

    Yes, the "evil creature turning good" is trite and cliched, but when written well, it is also moving. Also, this one has the real Durkon working on him from within. Is there not a possibility of the HPoH allying with Durkon and the Order, once he is made to realize that the whole world may be at stake?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I wonder if Belkar's "fake character growth" becoming real (which I think is happening, no matter what) doesn't foreshadow in some way what the ultimate resolution of the HPoH's story will be.

    Yes, the "evil creature turning good" is trite and cliched, but when written well, it is also moving. Also, this one has the real Durkon working on him from within. Is there not a possibility of the HPoH allying with Durkon and the Order, once he is made to realize that the whole world may be at stake?
    I think his loyalty to Hel would make that very difficult. Clearly, as her Cleric, he has devoted himself to her, and since he is most likely a Lawful guy he probably follows her orders very willingly. Some of the things he's said earlier also make it seem that he believes that Hel has very good reasons for what she's done.


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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    It would also be confirmation that Durkula has been lying to the party, which changes the dynamic somewhat. Even so, that wouldn't make immediate staking reasonable.
    Why, exactly, is it not a "reasonable" act to stake him?

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Why, exactly, is it not a "reasonable" act to stake him?
    Because lying doesn't warrant a lethal response, and that's the only thing the party would know Durkula to be guilty of.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Because lying doesn't warrant a lethal response, and that's the only thing the party would know Durkula to be guilty of.
    Aside from being an embodiment of pure negative energy, of course.

    I think there are occasions that lying does warrant a lethal response - because of what the truth is. Hypothetically, let's say it is, "Oh, yeah, I'm actually a vampire of Hel who is here to destroy all the dwarven lands and then you guys. But it would be totally unreasonable for you to attack me now because I haven't done anything against you yet."

    Personally, I think staking a vampire is pretty much always (in the D&D sense of always) a reasonable act. That doesn't mean it is moral - just that someone had an understandable reason to do so. Nor does that mean I necessary agree with the reason, just that I can see why they did it.

    That said, in a D&D universe I would immediately stake any vampire I saw unless I was specifically trying to become a vampire myself and was there to become her thrall. 99% of the time you'll end up dead (or undead) otherwise. I think that makes it "reasonable" to do it.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    I think there are occasions that lying does warrant a lethal response - because of what the truth is. Hypothetically, let's say it is, "Oh, yeah, I'm actually a vampire of Hel who is here to destroy all the dwarven lands and then you guys. But it would be totally unreasonable for you to attack me now because I haven't done anything against you yet."
    Learning that someone is lying does not automatically mean learning what the truth is. If they do learn that Durkula intends to bring the world to ruin, then they absolutely have reason to resort to violence. But merely learning that Durkula is not Durkon is not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Personally, I think staking a vampire is pretty much always (in the D&D sense of always) a reasonable act. That doesn't mean it is moral - just that someone had an understandable reason to do so. Nor does that mean I necessary agree with the reason, just that I can see why they did it.
    By that definition of reasonable, every murder is reasonable. Xykon sending goblins through the gate, for example. I don't agree with killing people to relieve boredom, but it's pretty clear that's why he did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    That said, in a D&D universe I would immediately stake any vampire I saw unless I was specifically trying to become a vampire myself and was there to become her thrall. 99% of the time you'll end up dead (or undead) otherwise.
    That is not how Evil works in D&D. Even Evil creatures still need a reason to kill; it's just that they're willing to kill for convenience or entertainment. Vampires usually kill for food, and kill humans because they are readily available(convenience) or particularly tasty(subcategory of entertainment). There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    By that definition of reasonable, every murder is reasonable. Xykon sending goblins through the gate, for example. I don't agree with killing people to relieve boredom, but it's pretty clear that's why he did it.
    Indeed, which was really my point. "Reasonable" is used by society to determine sanity vs insanity. "Moral" and "Legal" are different constructs.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    That is not how Evil works in D&D. Even Evil creatures still need a reason to kill; it's just that they're willing to kill for convenience or entertainment. Vampires usually kill for food, and kill humans because they are readily available(convenience) or particularly tasty(subcategory of entertainment).
    You're generalizing a bit what I said. I don't lump all evil aligned creatures together, nor does D&D. I said vampires specifically, you generalized that to imply I'm talking about all evil. All vampires are evil but not all evil creatures are vampires.

    Nonetheless, if you're go argue that all killing has a reason then by your own logic it would be reasonable to stake Durkula.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around.
    I don't understand how you can make a sweeping statement like that. Perhaps he thinks that specific individual is a threat. Or looks funny. Or hates the football jersey he's wearing. Vampires attack based on an individualized priority set, neither of us can apply one general set to their target list. (Or, to bring this to OOTS, maybe Durkula would attack V first as the biggest threat. Or maybe Roy because he believes taking out the leader will cause the rest to run. Or maybe he will be so full of himself that he kills Belkar first just out of spite.)

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Indeed, which was really my point. "Reasonable" is used by society to determine sanity vs insanity. "Moral" and "Legal" are different constructs.
    In English, "reasonable" is also used to mean "not excessive". Killing someone for lying is unreasonable in that it is excessive. Killing someone simply for being powered by negative energy is similarly excessive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    You're generalizing a bit what I said. I don't lump all evil aligned creatures together, nor does D&D. I said vampires specifically, you generalized that to imply I'm talking about all evil. All vampires are evil but not all evil creatures are vampires.
    Anything true of all Evil creatures is still true of Evil vampires. All Evil creatures, vampires included, need a reason to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    I don't understand how you can make a sweeping statement like that. Perhaps he thinks that specific individual is a threat. Or looks funny. Or hates the football jersey he's wearing. Vampires attack based on an individualized priority set, neither of us can apply one general set to their target list.
    A human could attack anyone on those same criteria. If living in a D&D world, would you also kill all humans on sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    (Or, to bring this to OOTS, maybe Durkula would attack V first as the biggest threat. Or maybe Roy because he believes taking out the leader will cause the rest to run. Or maybe he will be so full of himself that he kills Belkar first just out of spite.)
    There is no indication that Durkula intends to directly attack the members of the Order at any point. We know that he intends to bring the world to ruin, which is something the Order will doubtlessly try to stop if they discover it, but it is possible that his plans involve separating from the Order before making any overt moves towards that intention.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    In English, "reasonable" is also used to mean "not excessive". Killing someone for lying is unreasonable in that it is excessive. Killing someone simply for being powered by negative energy is similarly excessive.
    A being of wholly negative energy that is shown to be lying about who/what they are. We simply disagree if it is reasonable or not. Which is fine, there are very few circumstances in the universe in which everyone would agree it is okay to destroy anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Anything true of all Evil creatures is still true of Evil vampires. All Evil creatures, vampires included, need a reason to kill.
    If "they feel like it" counts, sure. But you're arguing against a strawman you created through an over-generalization..

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    A human could attack anyone on those same criteria. If living in a D&D world, would you also kill all humans on sight?
    False equivalency. Undead are not equal to the living. Something Tsukiko didn't get either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    A being of wholly negative energy that is shown to be lying about who/what they are. We simply disagree if it is reasonable or not. Which is fine, there are very few circumstances in the universe in which everyone would agree it is okay to destroy anything.



    If "they feel like it" counts, sure. But you're arguing against a strawman you created through an over-generalization..



    False equivalency. Undead are not equal to the living. Something Tsukiko didn't get either.
    Is it your claim that vampires are more likely to kill someone because "they feel like it" than other Evil creatures are?

    If so, what is your evidence for this claim? If not, what is the significance of the difference between vampires and non-vampires?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Is it your claim that vampires are more likely to kill someone because "they feel like it" than other Evil creatures are?

    If so, what is your evidence for this claim? If not, what is the significance of the difference between vampires and non-vampires?
    Non-sentient undead kill because they essentially "feel like it" unless ordered to do otherwise. Comes with being undead. Skeletons, zombies, etc. One could argue, of course, they don't actually *feel* - it is more of a compulsion from being driven by negative energy. They aren't doing it to necessarily consume in order to remain in existence. They are evil, while non-sentient creatures are almost always* neutral.

    Sentient undead kill for a variety of reasons. Unlike you did above, I don't ascribe a particular logic to how they make their target list (although speaking of sourcing, I'd be interested in where you got that from.) That said, they are still undead. They still have the same inherent drive because they're still negative energy but they are capable of choosing to follow a more advanced path to that end.

    *not counting fiendish/celestial templates, etc.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around.
    So it's vitally important not to use a tasty-smelling shampoo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Sentient undead kill for a variety of reasons. Unlike you did above, I don't ascribe a particular logic to how they make their target list (although speaking of sourcing, I'd be interested in where you got that from.)
    There's a few sources, but I think the one most relevant to this discussion is the comic strip The Order of the Stick, written by Rich Burlew. It's still ongoing, but to date we've met three free-willed sentient undead. All of them seem very human-like in their reasoning. Certainly, none of them have displayed the inherent antipathy towards life that you describe. One(and only one) has been known to kill for entertainment, but my understanding is that he also tended to do that while alive, and he's not significantly more likely to do it than a living halfling we've also met.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    So it's vitally important not to use a tasty-smelling shampoo.
    Yes, but you have to account for vampiric tastes; as long as you're not bathing in the blood of your enemies you're probably okay.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    There's a few sources, but I think the one most relevant to this discussion is the comic strip The Order of the Stick, written by Rich Burlew. It's still ongoing, but to date we've met three free-willed sentient undead. All of them seem very human-like in their reasoning. Certainly, none of them have displayed the inherent antipathy towards life that you describe. One(and only one) has been known to kill for entertainment, but my understanding is that he also tended to do that while alive, and he's not significantly more likely to do it than a living halfling we've also met.
    You're now arguing against yourself.

    If they're so "free willed" - which I don't necessarily agree with - that would be evidence against your prior statement, "Vampires usually kill for food, and kill humans because they are readily available(convenience) or particularly tasty(subcategory of entertainment). There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around."

    Regardless, there is not enough evidence for you to make the claims you're making in this post either. There isn't enough data on Durkula yet, likely on purpose for the story. Malack worshiped death - literally - even though Giant was also hiding the fact of him being undead from the readers on purpose. And Xykon... well, even if he was the exact same before undeath it wouldn't prove your point. It would only demonstrate insufficient evidence if I was trying to prove something by his actions (which, for the record, I'm not.)

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    If they're so "free willed" - which I don't necessarily agree with - that would be evidence against your prior statement, "Vampires usually kill for food, and kill humans because they are readily available(convenience) or particularly tasty(subcategory of entertainment). There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around."
    The word "usually" indicates a general propensity, not an inviolable law. Example: dwarves usually use axes and hammers rather than swords and spears. Note how dwarves still have free will, despite this propensity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Regardless, there is not enough evidence for you to make the claims you're making in this post either. There isn't enough data on Durkula yet, likely on purpose for the story. Malack worshiped death - literally - even though Giant was also hiding the fact of him being undead from the readers on purpose. And Xykon... well, even if he was the exact same before undeath it wouldn't prove your point. It would only demonstrate insufficient evidence if I was trying to prove something by his actions (which, for the record, I'm not.)
    If Xykon was exactly the same before undeath, it would mean that being undead does not inherently cause a compulsion to kill the living. Since that is my point, it totally would prove it.

    Malack worshiped Nergal, a god of Death and Destruction, not death itself. Note that a cleric can worship a cause-if Malack wanted to worship death directly, he could have. We also know that Malack had extended contact with the Vector Legion, and there are no indications that he ever tried to kill any of them. This again suggests no particular compulsion to kill the living.

    While we haven't spent much time with Durkula, we have actually been inside his head. Even there, we see no evidence of murderous compulsions or non-human thought processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    The word "usually" indicates a general propensity, not an inviolable law. Example: dwarves usually use axes and hammers rather than swords and spears. Note how dwarves still have free will, despite this propensity.
    Just admit that, "There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around" was a stronger statement than you intended to make and be done with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    If Xykon was exactly the same before undeath, it would mean that being undead does not inherently cause a compulsion to kill the living. Since that is my point, it totally would prove it.
    Except it doesn't. That's not how logic works. If you have a +2 insight bonus and get another +2 insight bonus, that doesn't mean the second one didn't exist. If Xykon already had a compulsion to kill the living before becoming undead it doesn't mean anything. I never said that being undead was the only way to have a compulsion... some people have that compulsion too. I'm only arguing that all undead do although some have more elaborate plans to that end than others - but that's NOT the same as free will.

    The analogy here is that I'm claiming I have a bag that if you put any rock into it, the rock turns to gold. You're putting in gold and when you take it out it is still gold... then claiming my bag doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    This again suggests no particular compulsion to kill the living.
    *shrugs* it shows a lack of evidence. We have no idea what Malack's grand schemes were, nor what directions Nergal provided him. Giant purposefully hid Malack's true nature to improve the storytelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    While we haven't spent much time with Durkula, we have actually been inside his head. Even there, we see no evidence of murderous compulsions or non-human thought processes.
    "If I weren't composed entirely of negative energy I would yarf." is such a human thing to think. How silly of me.

    That aside, we know he has a plan that ends up destroying his dwarven homeland. He's not doing it to feed. That's pretty much a sentient way of completing a murderous compulsion as I can think of right now.

    (Edited to remove a bad analogy.)
    Last edited by Gusion; 2014-11-21 at 08:52 AM.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    If they're so "free willed" - which I don't necessarily agree with -
    Vampires are free-willed; Malack had free will and there is only one way that vampirism works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Just admit that, "There's no reason a vampire would go after you, personally, if there are tastier or easier to get humans around" was a stronger statement than you intended to make and be done with it.
    I might, if it were true. However, I'm sufficiently confident that context will clue enough people in to the fact that it's a generalization, rather than a universal truth, that I don't feel any compulsion to cater to people who don't see that, for whatever reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Except it doesn't. That's not how logic works. If somebody is already anything... +2 dodge bonus... if they get another +2 dodge bonus just because that it didn't stake doesn't mean the second +2 dodge bonus didn't happen. If Xykon already had a compulsion to kill the living before becoming undead it doesn't mean anything. I never said that being undead was the only way to have a compulsion... some people have that compulsion too. I'm only arguing that all undead do although some have more elaborate plans to that end than others - but that's NOT the same as free will.
    If someone gets two +2 dodge bonuses, we will expect them to dodge more often than someone with only one such bonus. Similarly, we would expect someone with two murderous compulsions to kill more often than someone with only one, rather than approximately as often.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    *shrugs* it shows a lack of evidence. We have no idea what Malack's grand schemes were, nor what directions Nergal provided him. Giant purposefully hid Malack's true nature to improve the storytelling.

    ...

    That aside, we know he has a plan that ends up destroying his dwarven homeland. He's not doing it to feed. That's pretty much a sentient way of completing a murderous compulsion as I can think of right now.
    You seem to be having some difficulty with the nature of clerics. Plans provided by Nergal and Hel are not compulsions from negative energy, they are directives from a diety to a follower. We'd expect to see such plans in any cleric of Nergal or Hel, living or dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    "If I weren't composed entirely of negative energy I would yarf." is such a human thing to think. How silly of me.
    While you seem to be agreeing, I suspect sarcasm. In case that is sarcasm, let me link you to a the tvtropes page Sickeningly Sweethearts (WARNING: tvtropes link), where a number of humans react to displays of affection by describing revulsion, up to and including a desire to vomit.

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    "Free will" was perhaps an in-artful choice of terms. I think Giant and I mean slightly different things. I'm saying if you're composed of pure negative/positive energy, you are not the blank slate that philosophically naturally neutral beings who make choices to choose their alignment are.

    I do think that both Malack and Durkula (well, the vampire inside of them) have the ability to make choices.

    I'm totally stealing this from ... A Wrinkle in Time I think... but the idea is that lives are a haiku and you can make it say whatever you want but you're still confined to the structure. That's sentient undead to me - they are confined to the structure of being pure negative energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I might, if it were true...
    Uh-huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    If someone gets two +2 dodge bonuses, we will expect them to dodge more often than someone with only one such bonus.
    I'm unsure what royal "we" you're referring to here, but have you actually played D&D? I'm gathering you haven't if you don't understand what "buffs not stacking" means. That's fine if you haven't, of course it isn't a pre-req for enjoying the comic... but it seems odd for you to argue about this without understanding a fundamental concept of the game.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    littlebum2002's Avatar

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post

    I'm unsure what royal "we" you're referring to here, but have you actually played D&D? I'm gathering you haven't if you don't understand what "buffs not stacking" means. That's fine if you haven't, of course it isn't a pre-req for enjoying the comic... but it seems odd for you to argue about this without understanding a fundamental concept of the game.

    Actually, his knowledge of the rules is better than yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2014-11-21 at 05:56 AM.

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    gooddragon1's Avatar

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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    I think the cleric who got controlled will break out of it and inform the party somehow.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: How I believe the Durkula awareness reveal will go.

    I don't know how Durkula's evil nature will be revealed.

    I am pretty sure Durkon will use the fact that Durkula lacks the empathy/intuition (WIS) to see connections between his memories, but I cherish the fact that I have no idea how.

    My bet it is that things will get very interesting when we get to Kraagor's Gate (and it will last at least that long because resolving it earlier does make it a speedbump rather than a key dramatic hook). The main reasons I think it will get interesting at Kraagor's Gate are two things:

    1. Lien
    2. O-Chul

    They both went ahead of the OotS and will both be there when the party arrive. They are Paladins, so that's going to be awkward for the presence of Durkula. Also key to this is that Lien is the poster-girl for "Good Not Stupid". Admittedly Roy is intelligent, but Lien isn't likely to share Roy's loyalty/guilt blindspot in relation to his friend.

    Besides, they may have enough Lore to know about the whole soul issue (but probably not as they are not Clerics).

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