Vasuvius (or Roy) took a level in Summoner? (Belkar comes back as an Eidolon)

[Chd]

The only stipulation the prophecy had was that Belkar would have his last breath ever before the end of the year. The interpretations can be played with, and I think I have found a way he can continue to fight on without 'drawing a breath'.

We have had 2 major forms of foreshadowing;

1) The Spirits of Soon Kim's paladins being able to fight until the anchor/what held them (the mission to defend the sapphire) is destroyed.

2) Belkar's recent 'character development' / group specialization Niche means that he won't let go of the mortal world easily.

So here's my theory:

Theory 1: Vasuvius takes a level in Summoner:

Vasuvius has relaxed on the reinforcement of Belkar's hatred towards him/her. This combined with Vasuvius' recent dark actions under the pact means that the spirit of Belkar could bind to him/her as the Eidolon partner.

1 level of Summoner means Vasuvius can spontaneously cast spells, as well as bypass the restrictions on Conjuration. Vasuvius's primary class of wizard, and their spell-book (spell list) isn't restricted in this way. S/he only 'loses'/is prevented from learning more spells if s/he took any more summoner levels.

Belkar would most likely tear up the afterlife, as the 'sexy, shoeless, God-of-War!'/'death's little helper'
This includes the Directors. What if, after Belkar kills one of the Directors, the surviving two say to Vasuvius: "We have a deal to relieve you of any further soul-bondage, and give you the power to Spontaneously cast spells, including one to summon Belkar as an Eidolon back to the mortal plane. We need you to SUMMON HIM NOW BEFORE HE DESTROYS US!"

Theory 2: Roy is forced to take a level in Summoner:

Roy is extremely intelligent/wise for a fighter. He could have become a wizard like his father with his stats, but chose instead to be a fighter.

While dead, the graph showed that Belkar's evil/chaos was controlled/contained by Roy's custodianship.

Belkar would most likely tear up the afterlife, as the 'sexy, shoeless, God-of-War!'/'death's little helper'
What if the afterlife end up saying to Roy: "You were the only one who could contain/curb his destruction. You made him too good in life to banish to the abyss, so him wrecking the place is your fault. We're binding him to your fate, giving you the arcane means to summon the lil' monster against Xylon. PLEASE SUMMON HIM AWAY FROM HERE SO WE CAN CLEAN UP!"

1 level of Summoner means Roy can spontaneously cast some spells, which might be needed if Vasuvius is MIA (the arcane half of the rift-sealing).

Honestly, I'm leaning towards number 1.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Vaarsuvius

[Ceaon]

The only stipulation the prophecy had was that Belkar would have his last breath ever before the end of the year.

Not true. Belkar is also "not long for this world", "shouldn't bother funding his IRA", and "should savour his next birthday cake".

2) Belkar's recent 'character development' / group specialization Niche means that he won't let go of the mortal world easily.

Why?

Theory 1

Fun theory, it fits on some levels. But I really hope it won't happen. 'Belkar is SO awesome, even the devils and demons can't handle him!' Also, what Summoner class? Pathfinder doesn't exist in Stickworld as far as we can see.

Theory 2

If Roy REALLY is the most powerful force that the afterlife has access to for containing evil, then they've already lost. I consider people like Redcloak, Xykon and the three soul-splice souls as way more uncontainable then Belkar. I mean, 'Roy is so good, he's the only one able to contain the awesomeness that is Belkar' makes Mary Sues of two characters! The halfling can easily be defeated by any high-level fighter and by anyone who has Hold Person as a spell. And probably by many, many others.

[Quild]

Not true. Belkar is also "not long for this world", "shouldn't bother funding his IRA", and "should savour his next birthday cake".

These are not said with oracle's voice. We know that the oracle is both an ass and cryptic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, what Summoner class? Pathfinder doesn't exist in Stickworld as far as we can see.

This is your biggest problem, in addition your plan involves Belkar bearing up people that would actually be a challenge to him, as opposed to the mooks he usually excels against. Finally, the Oracle has no reason to lie and is probably telling the truth in the other things he says about Belkar.

[Peelee]

These are not said with oracle's voice. We know that the oracle is both an ass and cryptic.

We know that the Oracle has a memory charm in place because he is careless with letting small prophecies slip out. Upon passing through the charm, the questioner only remembers his own prophecy as given in the "voice."

Why would that be necessary if only the things said in the "voice" counted? The only thing effect we have seen the "voice" have is that the questioner remembers what was said in our after passing through the memory charm. The Oracle still soothsays without the "voice" on a constant basis, such as taking his mage grieves when his next resurrection appointment is, and even predicts what he will predict.

[Keltest]

We know that the Oracle has a memory charm in place because he is careless with letting small prophecies slip out. Upon passing through the charm, the questioner only remembers his own prophecy as given in the "voice."

Why would that be necessary if only the things said in the "voice" counted? The only thing effect we have seen the "voice" have is that the questioner remembers what was said in our after passing through the memory charm. The Oracle still soothsays without the "voice" on a constant basis, such as taking his mage grieves when his next resurrection appointment is, and even predicts what he will predict.

If something slips out and it isn't through the Voice, its just that: an offhand comment that may or may not entirely and accurately reflect what the oracle saw. I know I tend to avoid going into detail about more technical issues if someone has not expressed a specific interest in what I know about it, and in this case the Oracle likely has a standing policy of not doing so in order to make people leave faster.

[Ceaon]

Also, I think summons/eidolons still need to breath (as they are not immune to inhaled poisons), directly contradicting the Oracle-voice prediction that he will draw his last breath ever in 572.

[ellindsey]

Eidolons still need to breath, otherwise the 'Gills' evolution wouldn't make any sense. An eidolon is also required to be the same alignment as its summoner, so this wouldn't work out unless someone changed alignment first. (And then there's still the whole this isn't pathfinder thing).

[Peelee]

If something slips out and it isn't through the Voice, its just that: an offhand comment that may or may not entirely and accurately reflect what the oracle saw. I know I tend to avoid going into detail about more technical issues if someone has not expressed a specific interest in what I know about it, and in this case the Oracle likely has a standing policy of not doing so in order to make people leave faster.

From a story prospective, the Oracle has the Memory Charm in place so that offhand prophecies will not be remembered, and only the prophecy specifically requested and paid for will be remembered. We also specifically see the Oracle foretelling events while not in the Oracular Trance. We can thus deduce that while any given comment not made in Oracular Trance is not always a prophecy, the trance is not necessary for the Oracle to mention knowledge of future events.

From a meta prospective, the only reason for the Oracle to have said all he did about Belkar, since the Order will not remember it, is so that the reader is aware of the prophecy.

The logical conclusion is that comments regarding Belkar's fate made by the Oracle while not in the Oracular Trance are valid prophecies of future events, equal in weight to "official" prophecies.

Any given persons reading and interpretation of said prophecy is debatable, but i fail to see how "if it's not said in the trance then it doesn't count, except those times it did" is a reasonable argument.

EDIT: "I am become Shiva, derailer of threads" - some nucular nerd. Anyway, would you care to take this to PM? Unless others are interested as well, i'm trying to get better about threadjacking.

IT'S PART OF THE JOKE, OPPENHEIMER/ATOMIC THEORY FANS.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

EDIT: "I am become Shiva, derailer of threads" - some nucular nerd. Anyway, would you care to take this to PM? Unless others are interested as well, i'm trying to get better about threadjacking.

Actually, I find the discussion interesting, as I've been looking for a good reason to say that the Oracle's comments (or their general meaning) are binding besides "because I want it to be like that". It's certainly more interesting than continuing to discuss the premise, since that's essentially "Pathfinder. Doesn't work".

[Kish]

There is no logic to "I think the Oracle lies freely when predicting the future, but not when in the green glowies." Even if, somehow, the green glowies prevented lying, he could just use an illusion wand to fake being in the green glowies and say whatever he liked. Either the Oracle's predictions are all true or the Oracle's predictions are sometimes lies. Pick one.

(Would "the Oracle generated the green glowies with an illusion wand, and you find that out only after Belkar doesn't die" be a kind of ripoff Rich doesn't do? Yes, of course it would. So would any form of "the prophecy meant nothing, Belkar was never actually not long for the world, the Oracle was lying.")

[Keltest]

There is no logic to "I think the Oracle lies freely when predicting the future, but not when in the green glowies." Even if, somehow, the green glowies prevented lying, he could just use an illusion wand to fake being in the green glowies and say whatever he liked. Either the Oracle's predictions are all true or the Oracle's predictions are sometimes lies. Pick one.

Yes there is. The Oracle runs a business. He doesnt want people coming back for more prophecies, but he doesnt want them coming back to complain to him either (or worse, demand a refund). If he lies and it gets erased by the memory charm, the only thing that happens is the Oracle gets a chuckle. If he lies during the glowing prophecy to get past the memory charm, he has to deal with some less than happy customers.

So if you really feel the need to oversimplify things like that, the Oracle's predictions can be lies, he's just smarter than to do it when there would be consequences for doing so.

[falsedot]

the green flame illusion wand would also have to give immunity to the memory charm. of course the oracle could know that roy will keep his memories and found the opportunity to lie using just an illusion.

Yes there is. The Oracle runs a business. He doesnt want people coming back for more prophecies, but he doesnt want them coming back to complain to him either (or worse, demand a refund). If he lies and it gets erased by the memory charm, the only thing that happens is the Oracle gets a chuckle. If he lies during the glowing prophecy to get past the memory charm, he has to deal with some less than happy customers.

So if you really feel the need to oversimplify things like that, the Oracle's predictions can be lies, he's just smarter than to do it when there would be consequences for doing so.

however, Roy wasn't really a customer so he cannot demand a refund. Plus, if the oracle really cares about complains, wouldn't he be super-clear to avoid misunderstandings that may lead to complains?

on the other hand, the oracle looks like he is anti-Xykon; he even tried to get Roy to rephrase his question about the gates. Why do so if he could just say "yeah he'll be to girard's gate before kraagor's but, just fyi, he's heading to azure city right now". This leads me to believe that the green flames force him to respond to the question asked and say the truth. could even be part of the QuestGuard System; both auras are green (then again, so is zzdtri's magic)

personally, it feels it would be lame to have belkar pseudo-die

[Keltest]

however, Roy wasn't really a customer so he cannot demand a refund. Plus, if the oracle really cares about complains, wouldn't he be super-clear to avoid misunderstandings that may lead to complains?

Bad publicity is a thing. If someone gives you a free sample of something, and it doesnt work as advertised, don't you think the next time you heard someone was going there, you would be inclined to tell them to seek wisdom elsewhere? as for being super clear, that seems like a fair bit of work for something that people basically go into knowing that they get what they ask for (see Roy and his question about where Xykon was heading.)

on the other hand, the oracle looks like he is anti-Xykon; he even tried to get Roy to rephrase his question about the gates. Why do so if he could just say "yeah he'll be to girard's gate before kraagor's but, just fyi, he's heading to azure city right now". This leads me to believe that the green flames force him to respond to the question asked and say the truth. could even be part of the QuestGuard System; both auras are green (then again, so is zzdtri's magic)

personally, it feels it would be lame to have belkar pseudo-die

or maybe he just doesnt want Xykon to take over the world? just a thought? He isn't doing himself any favors by going out of his way to make their quest harder.

[Chd]

Eidolons still need to breath, otherwise the 'Gills' evolution wouldn't make any sense. An eidolon is also required to be the same alignment as its summoner, so this wouldn't work out unless someone changed alignment first. (And then there's still the whole this isn't pathfinder thing).

4 evolution points removes this restriction.

I don't see how the PFRD thing is an issue, the Dashing Swashbuckler class was from a 3rd-party book. Even if PF doesn't exist in this world, all it takes is to say that class is in the same book as the Dashing Swashbuckler.

Let's say V or Roy get the class at lvl 15, the Eidolon (Belkar) would have 20 evolution points. If the order give him his Gear back, I fail to see why we need to change much apart from size class (and have a joke about the rules not able to factor in that change, so he keeps on getting hit despite his appearance as a small creature IC)

Using the Biped template, assuming the claws are on his hairy halfling feet:

Biped

Starting Statistics
Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Free Evolutions
claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).

Eidolon Skills

The following skills are class skills for eidolons: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex).

20 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions improved natural armor, weapon training; No Breath, Secondary Evolutions ability increase (Strength), ability increase (Dexterity),fast healing, weapon training (Improvised). Scent, Skilled (Handle Animals), Skilled (Cooking),

[Keltest]

4 evolution points removes this restriction.

I don't see how the PFRD thing is an issue, the Dashing Swashbuckler class was from a 3rd-party book. Even if PF doesn't exist in this world, all it takes is to say that class is in the same book as the Dashing Swashbuckler.

Let's say V or Roy get the class at lvl 15, the Eidolon (Belkar) would have 20 evolution points. If the order give him his Gear back, I fail to see why we need to change much apart from size class (and have a joke about the rules not able to factor in that change, so he keeps on getting hit despite his appearance as a small creature IC)

Using the Biped template, assuming the claws are on his hairy halfling feet:

Biped

Starting Statistics
Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Free Evolutions
claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).

Eidolon Skills

The following skills are class skills for eidolons: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex).

20 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions improved natural armor, weapon training; No Breath, Secondary Evolutions ability increase (Strength), ability increase (Dexterity),fast healing, weapon training (Improvised). Scent, Skilled (Handle Animals), Skilled (Cooking),

The Dashing Swordsman class was something that Rich made up himself. If it is in a 3rd party book, Rich did not use that to determine his class abilities.

and theres still the issue of Belkar not actually being remotely powerful enough to cause any level of serious havoc in any evil afterlife.

[ClockShock]

The theory relies far too heavily on (not even proper) D&D rules/loopholes. It's not gonna happen. Not even close.

[Chd]

The Dashing Swordsman class was something that Rich made up himself. If it is in a 3rd party book, Rich did not use that to determine his class abilities.

and theres still the issue of Belkar not actually being remotely powerful enough to cause any level of serious havoc in any evil afterlife.

No, In the comic, it says that the Dashing Swordsman was from a 3rd party sourcebook, I don't know why it couldn't contain something similar to the Summoner Class. The book is on the ship, so I don't know why Elan won't take it, read it, and show the prestige class to V and Roy.

Of course Belkar won't cause serious havoc in the afterlife, he's the heroic sociopath, a form of Black-Comedy Relief. If anything, it would have to be handled as a case of hilarity ensures.

[Keltest]

No, In the comic, it says that the Dashing Swordsman was from a 3rd party sourcebook, I don't know why it couldn't contain something similar to the Summoner Class. The book is on the ship, so I don't know why Elan won't take it, read it, and show the prestige class to V and Roy.

Of course Belkar won't cause serious havoc in the afterlife, he's the heroic sociopath, a form of Black-Comedy Relief. If anything, it would have to be handled as a case of hilarity ensures.

well OUT of the comic, Rich made it up. Rich also qualifies as a 3rd party.

[Peelee]

No, In the comic, it says that the Dashing Swordsman was from a 3rd party sourcebook, I don't know why it couldn't contain something similar to the Summoner Class. The book is on the ship, so I don't know why Elan won't take it, read it, and show the prestige class to V and Roy.

Of course Belkar won't cause serious havoc in the afterlife, he's the heroic sociopath, a form of Black-Comedy Relief. If anything, it would have to be handled as a case of hilarity ensures.

By that logic, i don't know why it can't contain the Walker Texas Ranger prestige class that Belkar totally qualifies for and renders him immune to death, because why not? Also it has the "Die Xykon" spell which kills Xykons with no saving throws, and the the base class, Author, with the supernatural ability to summon Deus ex Machina at will.

[Keltest]

By that logic, i don't know why it can't contain the Walker Texas Ranger prestige class that Belkar totally qualifies for and renders him immune to death, because why not? Also it has the "Die Xykon" spell which kills Xykons with no saving throws, and the the base class, Author, with the supernatural ability to summon Deus ex Machina at will.

Author is a prestige class. Writer is the base class, and all they can do is summon Plot Device at will.

[Peelee]

Author is a prestige class. Writer is the base class, and all they can do is summon Plot Device at will.

Crap, I think your right. I'm surprised they could do that at will, though... I was sure there was a daily limit. Maybe that got changed in the 3rd ed/3.5 crossover.

[Quartz]

V won't take a level in anything other than Wizard: 9th level spells are only a level away.

[Kish]

V won't take a level in anything other than Wizard: 9th level spells are only a level away.

S/he could take a prestige class that still advances full casting.

(I think it very unlikely that s/he will. Rich's choices would be "a brokenly powerful prestige class," which very much does not seem to be where Vaarsuvius' story is going, "a prestige class which fills the same thematic role as wizard, like archmage" which might well happen in a campaign but in this story would add complexity for no gain, or...one which doesn't advance full casting.)

[Keltest]

S/he could take a prestige class that still advances full casting.

(I think it very unlikely that s/he will. Rich's choices would be "a brokenly powerful prestige class," which very much does not seem to be where Vaarsuvius' story is going, "a prestige class which is fills the same thematic role as wizard, like archmage" which might well happen in a campaign but in this story would add complexity for no gain, or...one which doesn't advance full casting.)

It might be interesting to see what V would do if he was put in a position where he had to choose between going further down the "ultimate arcane power" road that he doesn't want to go down, or being denied an extremely useful resource in the fight against Xykon. If a prestige class like that doesn't exist, its not like Rich hasn't been willing to make them up in the past (Im looking at you Elan).

[Chd]

If a prestige class like that doesn't exist, its not like Rich hasn't been willing to make them up in the past (Im looking at you Elan).

This right here. The Summoner/Eidolon is an example of how a prestige class could look in the stickiverse.

As for Belkar as a summoned creature/entity, I can't see why that would break the 'not long for this world' wording. He'd only be here when summoned/called upon, and is dismissed/banished when the summoner is KO'ed or annoyed with the Summonee.

That, and Otherworldly Entities (OTE) cannot have IRA funds...

[Ceaon]

This right here. The Summoner/Eidolon is an example of how a prestige class could look in the stickiverse.

As for Belkar as a summoned creature/entity, I can't see why that would break the 'not long for this world' wording. He'd only be here when summoned/called upon, and is dismissed/banished when the summoner is KO'ed or annoyed with the Summonee.

That, and Otherworldly Entities (OTE) cannot have IRA funds...

I would consider it very bad writing.
"Here's a class that I never mentioned before which will make Belkar's prophecy completely pointless."
How likely do you think your theory is?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As for Belkar as a summoned creature/entity, I can't see why that would break the 'not long for this world' wording. He'd only be here when summoned/called upon, and is dismissed/banished when the summoner is KO'ed or annoyed with the Summonee.

Because not long for this world implies that he will leave this world forever, not keep coming back to it. Even if you take a less literal interpretation of the phrase, the indication is still that he will die and not come back.

[Chd]

I would consider it very bad writing.
"Here's a class that I never mentioned before which will make Belkar's prophecy completely pointless."
How likely do you think your theory is?

TBH, not as much as when the prophecy was revealed. Rich Burlew has moved away from the game-centered gags.

This was merely a 'What-If' exercise. The theory could allow the exploring of the ideas of player agency and GM's Fiat.

A more likely theory is that Rich would write in Belkar's player pulls out an identical character sheet, just like the DM had with Yikyik/Yukyuk/Yakyak.

When Belkar makes his 'Last Stand', he'd could ask the rest of the order to Send a message to his family back home.