Dragons vs mind flayers

[Urpriest]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

[malonkey1]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

Well, yes and no. This assumes that neither side has devised a way to negate epic magic, which seems unlikely given their natures. An Illithid iis just the kind of paranoid chessmaster who would research an epic power capable of nullifying epic spellcasting, while a Dragon is likely to just happen to have a similar epic spell laying about in their hoard (not to mention some pretty impressive research capabilities themselves).

Without those, it'd basically be the Cold War gone hot. With them, epic spells just become highly advanced armaments like any other spell. I think the Emerald Legion was briefly mentioned earlier in the thread, and I'd say that this is the best weapon for the Mindflayers, especially if they simulacrum or ice assassin them for greater numbers (not to mention making an ice assassin or two of the enemy). Heck, if they get really devious, maybe they can piss off somebody powerful enough to send an Aleax, and then hijack it, but that's something either side could do.

[VoxRationis]

Mind flayers, as per the Monster Manual, are good at mostly one thing: dominating and stunning. But a dragon can do all that, with their eventual caster levels, and more, as well as tear illithids apart in melee, outmaneuver them with flight, swimming, and burrowing, or immolate them with breath weapons. If nothing else, they can do the Ancient Black Dragon tactic of just throwing up antimagic fields and still being dragons while their enemies become frail tentacle-faced monkeys. I don't know about stats for Elder Brains or any of the late-period sourcebook illithids, though.

[HereBeMonsters]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

[Divide by Zero]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

But the dragons are also played by less than genius level humans. And the same points can be made against illithid. So I'm not really sure how this is relevant.

[ArqArturo]

Mind flayers, as per the Monster Manual, are good at mostly one thing: dominating and stunning. But a dragon can do all that, with their eventual caster levels, and more, as well as tear illithids apart in melee, outmaneuver them with flight, swimming, and burrowing, or immolate them with breath weapons. If nothing else, they can do the Ancient Black Dragon tactic of just throwing up antimagic fields and still being dragons while their enemies become frail tentacle-faced monkeys. I don't know about stats for Elder Brains or any of the late-period sourcebook illithids, though.

QFT, also, according to Lords of Madness (and parts in Spelljammer too, I think), they eventually not just enslave everything and everyone, but also manage to blot out all stars, thus no more daylight anywhere.

Quoting from the Timaresh wiki:

Spoiler

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he earliest origins of the illithid are an utter mystery. Despite the existence of a few references claiming to describe their origins — the Sargonne Prophecies, the Astromundi Chronicles, the Planetreader's Primer — nothing is truly known of where they first came from. Some theorize connections to the Far Realm, others the mutant products of experimentations, but these are merely supposition, and the illithid themselves have neither comment nor care for their true origins. The only that would know for certain are the deities or elder brains of the illithid, and neither is likely to speak on the matter to outsiders.

What is known is that the first appearances of the illithid date back to approximately 34,000 years ago upon the Prime, the great nautiloid ships of the illithid coming from the depths of Wildspace to move upon the various material worlds near the waning days of the Reptilian Age, when the earliest intelligent mammalian races were first emerging upon the many-varied worlds. Over the next thousands of years, they took planet after planet, holding hundreds upon hundreds at their peak. Beyond the Material Plane, their reach extended upon the Astral and Ethereal, and even to a few outposts on the Outlands. So great was the Illithid Empire that it drew the notice, and the worry, of even the various races of the planes, so far as a threat that the Blood War itself came to a halt for the first time since its commencement as the baatezu and tanar'ri came to a brief summit to discuss the illithid threat; a summit that ended up collapsing into threats and violence, but a summit nonetheless.

Even such a great empire cannot last forever, though; after almost 20,000 years of domination, the early humans most frequently used as subject thralls by the illithid, following generation after generation after generation of controlled breeding, began to grow psionic gifts and defenses of their own, entirely unbeknownst to their masters. Tempering and developing these talents in secret, the thralls snuck agents from world to world via the very supply lines of the Empire itself. Finally, near to 16,000 years ago, thralls across the entire empire rebelled under the leadership of two great warriors, Gith and Zerthimon. Within three decades the thralls had succeeded in shattering the Illithid empire, slaughtering millions of illithid and thousands of elder brains, and ending the threat to the Prime. From this thrall race came eventually the githyanki and githzerai, set at odds with one another following the Pronouncement of Two Skies, but despite the ill will between the two factions, their acts together were an undeniable good for reality.

Shattered into any number of disparate communities across the planes, it was more than ten millennia before the illithid race managed to re-establish itself as a single body, striking out again in the year Hashkar -2965 to try and regain their former glory by unseating the then-dominant power of the Prime, the Thri-Kreen Empire; and so the Great Illithid Wars began. They stretched on for the next 175 years, finally concluding with the destruction of both the Thri-Kreen Empire's capital world and the home world of the thri-kreen, both shattering the empire's ability to field a military and utterly demoralizing its dominant race. Once more, the illithid were the dominant power in the Prime, though it was a far different time by then, with many more forces standing against them. Though they managed to take a number of worlds, they had nowhere near the strength of the first Illithid Empire, and so it was that in Hashkar -2787, their greatest fleet was fought to a standstill and eventual defeat by a briefly-united beholder fleet. The illithid were unseated, and the forces that defeated them soon collapsed into the usual in-fighting and sniping of the beholders, leaving a power vacuum for the humanoids of the Prime to once more take.

Today, the illithid are a significant threat across many Prime worlds, but far more individualized. Having lost much in the way of knowledge, of resources, of communication, each community of illithid upon both the Prime and the planes is essentially its own independent force, with little-to-none in the way of communication with any other community. Still, the illithid have recovered from one near-defeat, and they are among the most tenacious of races; not simply hoping for success, they believe it to be truly inevitable, and that the illithid will one day again rule the Prime.

In other words... Yes, yes, trust in your metallic dragons. In the end, you will want to be eaten first.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

That's because most GMs play a dragon like a very big lizard with (at best) a few spells for buffing support, not as hyper-intelligent apex predators with centuries of experience and an innate understanding of magic.
A lot of dragons get 18-20 Int by young adult, some even earlier. Older dragons can easily get into the low 30s. Mind Flayers get Int 18, so the very edge of human intelligence.
If DMs actually played dragons true to their stats instead of as impressive loot-pinatas there would be a lot more TPKs and a lot less dragonslayers.

A lot depends also on the campaign world. There are at least a hundred named dragons in FR (DoF), most of them mature or older, some of them with levels in PC classes.
We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?), or how many dragons exist on other planes than the material.
We also know almost nothing about what numbers the mind flayers have, save that it can't be all that many or else they would have conquered at least the Underdark.

What we do know is that dragons tend to build heavily trapped and fortified lairs as they get older. The example mind flayer village in LoM on the other hand is kind of pathetic.

Unless the mind flayers start a war with a significant advantage, they're going to lose. The average mind flayer is weaker than the average dragon, the strongest dragons outclass the strongest illithids so much it isn't even funny and dragons can reproduce a lot faster than mind flayers.

I just can't really see an advantage for the mind flayers here. They're weaker, take longer to reproduce and their stated way of living makes them a lot more vulnerable to attack.

[Urpriest]

We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?)

Argonessen, actually. Which also has a city full of epic level humanoids who nonetheless only exist at the sufferance of the dragons.

[Ettina]

I disagree with good and evil not working together. In a time of crisis with full-out war waged by illithids, regardless of their patron deities, they would work together.

That's if the illithids are dumb about it and wage a full frontal attack, which really doesn't fit their characterization.

More likely illithids would start by working behind the scenes to pit the two factions of dragons against each other. Given how much they hate each other, that shouldn't be too hard. Once the dragons have waged an all-out war against each other, the illithids can attack the winners and stand a much better chance.

[ArqArturo]

That's because most GMs play a dragon like a very big lizard with (at best) a few spells for buffing support, not as hyper-intelligent apex predators with centuries of experience and an innate understanding of magic.
A lot of dragons get 18-20 Int by young adult, some even earlier. Older dragons can easily get into the low 30s. Mind Flayers get Int 18, so the very edge of human intelligence.
If DMs actually played dragons true to their stats instead of as impressive loot-pinatas there would be a lot more TPKs and a lot less dragonslayers.

A lot depends also on the campaign world. There are at least a hundred named dragons in FR (DoF), most of them mature or older, some of them with levels in PC classes.
We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?), or how many dragons exist on other planes than the material.
We also know almost nothing about what numbers the mind flayers have, save that it can't be all that many or else they would have conquered at least the Underdark.

What we do know is that dragons tend to build heavily trapped and fortified lairs as they get older. The example mind flayer village in LoM on the other hand is kind of pathetic.

Unless the mind flayers start a war with a significant advantage, they're going to lose. The average mind flayer is weaker than the average dragon, the strongest dragons outclass the strongest illithids so much it isn't even funny and dragons can reproduce a lot faster than mind flayers.

I just can't really see an advantage for the mind flayers here. They're weaker, take longer to reproduce and their stated way of living makes them a lot more vulnerable to attack.

They actually have placed tadpoles in dragons, thus creating Brainstealer Dragons.

[atemu1234]

They actually have placed tadpoles in dragons, thus creating Brainstealer Dragons.

Nope. Brainstealers were a race created by experimentation. Half-Illithid dragons, however...

[ArqArturo]

Nope. Brainstealers were a race created by experimentation. Half-Illithid dragons, however...

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

Dragons also have half-dragon anythings, if you want to go that way. And still reproduce several times faster. With pretty much anything.

[atemu1234]

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

Actually, communities without elder brains look to Brainstealers for judgement. Therein, dragons have illithids, embrace your scaly overlords.

[ArqArturo]

Dragons also have half-dragon anythings, if you want to go that way. And still reproduce several times faster. With pretty much anything.

Hmmm, could we place more than one template on a dragon? Let's say, a Half-Illithid Half-Fiendish Red Wyrm Dracolich?.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

I think it would look like the original explanation of the Time War in Doctor Who. Time traveling attempts to prevent each other from existing, battles that are waged several times by the same individuals because they are reset half way through, panicked divine intervention. It might even spill into the Bloodwar as Tiamat makes deals with Asmodeus.

[Yael]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Illithid was decimated by outsiders when they first came to the material plane, so, in an imaginary setting (outside of the OP), and if their first spawn weren't destroyed, I guess their numbers, technology and resources would end up in a much better position against every other creature (I mean, the standard illithid is more intelligent than the standard dragon, so at the time they are enough cappable of facing a threat just as dragons, they would come up prepared, not just by themselves, running in circles, and threatening with those cute tentacles and shooting mindblasts.)

I really love the Illithid in general, there are also Alhoons (which have their own agenda, and they aren't that strong if dracoliches come up into play), but I think they deserve a mention. There are Ultharids, which are more powerful illithids. Thoon illithidae also have their own thingies in mind, but are 'flayers in general. Elder Brains stand for their cities, so they would aid, even if they are few, they are strong (really strong.) In general, the Dragons have more support, but the Illithid support is cool at the least (and if we would add Dragon Magazine, the Brainstealer Dragon would be a fun addition to whichever side they preferr.)

I must state again that I am in the side of Illithids for everything else, but putting aside every non-OP specified I just mentioned, I must agree that dragons would outrule the Mind Flayers.

Save us, Aboleths!

[Sedlan Yurosa]

Don't forget Neothelids and Ultilithid

[SirNMN]

Dragons have access to Epic casting, Mind Flayers have access to Epic manifesting (via Elder Brains with a couple Psion levels), basic equivalence there, but Dragons likely have a greater number of powerful casters due to aforementioned reproduction calculation.

Mind Flayers have one (not especially involved) god, Dragons have a pantheon with a few solidly powerful members.

So on the basis of those two I'd say Dragons win.

it was stated in the opening that the draconic pantheon isn't getting involved, so the only deity worth considering in this the Illithid's generally uninvolved gods i think they have two, but might be a different setting.

The other only thing other worth bring up hasn't already been said is the illithid savant which can steal the skill, feat, special abilities of the creatures it eats

Think this thread was raised from the dead

[Crake]

What people discussing reproduction forget to take into account is that a mind flayer requires a host. They don't reproduce in a vacuum, they need the other races to reproduce, and since the premise is that all the other races are trivial, it's easy, the dragons simply wipe out the mortal races, and boom, mind flayers die out in a generation.

[Roland St. Jude]

Thread necromancy is not permitted here.