(PF) Mysterious Pistolero/ Divine Hunter

[Gruzzle]

Hail, and well met my fellow Pathfinders! I've seen this idea discussed briefly in a few threads, but haven't really seen the concept fully explored anywhere. I am aware of the (semi-illegal?) Holy Gun archetype for Paladins, but after reading it over I feel like I'm better off multi-classing. I've decided to roll one up and would appreciate the community's input!

Stuff I have so far: Combining archetypes is allowed as long as there's no conflicting ability changes, so I believe Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero archetypes can be combined for more awesome. The Divine Hunter Archetype seems a good fit for the build, but I'm not totally sold on it over just taking vanilla Paladin levels. I'm awaiting final approval from the GM on whether Azata-Blooded Aasimars are allowed, if not I will be Human. I may yet just go Human anyway, because extra feats are delicious. The GM is not a fan of points-buy so the stats I am working with are 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 18. My plan is to take my first level in Mysterious Stranger, then pick up Paladin(Divine Hunter?) at level 2.

Here's where you guys come in! Is anything I have planned so far not gonna work, or work poorly? If not, please let me know what you might recommend instead. Beyond level 2, how would you recommend I distribute my levels, and why? Also, I could use some Feat advice. I am pretty set on Rapid Reload at level 1, and would like to eventually get in to the Snap Shot line, making it a deadly proposition to move around within 15 feet of me.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts and input. Thanks in advance!

[grarrrg]

so I believe Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero archetypes can be combined

Nope.
The errata (finally) fixed Pistoleros to trading away Gun Training 1. As both Mysterious and Pistolero trade Gun Training 1, they can not be combined (and it was pretty stupid obvious that Pistoleros _should_ lose Gun Training from the start).
On the bright side, Mysterious Strangers keep all other Gun Training, so CHA and DEX to damage at level 9+.

Anywho, if you're going Paladin for most of your levels, Mysterious Stranger is probably gonna be better, and requires less investment.
And yes, Holy Gun is a trap. Do not take unless your campaign is stopping at level 5.

[Gruzzle]

The errata (finally) fixed Pistoleros to trading away Gun Training 1.

Well fiddlesticks. Too good to be true, I suppose.

So what would you recommend, leveling wise? MS at level 1, then all Paladin levels after that? Is Divine Hunter worth it?

And yes, Holy Gun is a trap. Do not take unless your campaign is stopping at level 5.

Well, this is this guy's first stab at GMing, so that's quite possible... but fingers crossed he goes the long haul!

[Gruzzle]

Also, now that we've thrown out Pistolero, which firearm should I pick up? I tend to gravitate towards the bigger damage die, so I'm thinking musket? On that vein, how bad of an idea would it be to swap out Mysterious Stranger for Musket Master? Drop my 18 in Dex, 15 in Cha, and 14 in Wis? Perhaps go Dwarf, get my Wis bumped to 16 and throw my 8 in Con to get it bumped to 10? A worshiper of Torag who has devised a new strategy of smiting, blackpowder!

[Slipperychicken]

I'd want to suss out the Paladin's roleplaying requirements with the DM. He may have a wildly different idea of what Paladins are. As long as you can manage that, the free feat and smite are nice.

Paladin levels are a valid choice as long as you can wrangle the feats, which is tough at low levels. There's a lot to be said for combining smite with firearms, as the two can be a really deadly combination: Spamming high damage attacks which target Touch AC and ignore DR is useful, even if you only get to do it for a few boss-monsters per day. It's a playstyle thing, in my opinion: A few novas when they count, versus being consistently above-average.

For gun-user builds, I still prefer Trench Fighter, since it lets you grab all those required feats when you need them, and then get dex to damage again. You also get a few other goodies like Weapon Training. I recall something which tried to nix dex-to-damage stacking, but I can't seem to find it right now.


EDIT:
If you're thinking about two-handed firearms, I've recently been fond of the idea of taking Musket Master, using with an axe musket, and taking Power Attack eventually to play kind of like a switch hitter (use ranged attacks, switch to 2H weapons when enemies get too close). If you don't mind a bit of cheese in your diet, the double-barreled musket can pump out some ludicrous damage once you put Greater Reliable on it to avoid misfires. The vanilla musket route (normal musket, Musket Master) is also a great choice because it means a longer range increment, smaller misfire chance, and a bigger damage die. Being mounted can help here, as with almost any ranged combatant, since it lets you get into position without wasting actions or forgoing full-attacks.

If you have access to advanced firearms, and are a shameless munchkin, I'd suggest Gun Scavenger. Change Out + Rifle = simultaneous full attacks against every creature within an 80ft cone.

[Raven777]

For gun-user builds, I still prefer Trench Fighter, since it lets you grab all those required feats when you need them, and then get dex to damage again. You also get a few other goodies like Weapon Training. I recall something which tried to nix dex-to-damage stacking, but I can't seem to find it right now.

There's a developer post somewhere on Paizo's message boards saying that you shouldn't be allowed to apply an ability bonus to a feature more than once. Not gonna go comb Paizo's forums for shot-from-the-hip rulings, though.

EDIT: Found it.

[grarrrg]

Also, now that we've thrown out Pistolero, which firearm should I pick up? I tend to gravitate towards the bigger damage die, so I'm thinking musket? On that vein, how bad of an idea would it be to swap out Mysterious Stranger for Musket Master?

Mysterious Stranger combines the best with Paladin, mainly through the CHA synergy and minimal level investment.
1 level and you're done. Gets you a Gun, a CHA-Based Grit pool (very important), Gunsmithing feat, and CHA to damage (when needed).
It does -not- get you Quick Clear though. So a back-up weapon might be needed.
(if you want to get technical, you could go Paladin for the first level and take the Amateur Gunslinger feat which gives you access to the 1st level deed of your choice to regain Quick Clear. but you must do this before you have a Grit pool.)


Using Muskets pretty much means you're locked into the Musket Master so you can get Free Action reloads at 3rd level. And you'll want to get level 5 at some point to get DEX to damage (but this doesn't cost Grit).


As for Paladin, Divine Hunter doesn't lose anything major, overall a decent archetype.

[Gruzzle]

Awesome input, thanks for everything so far. Musket Master would be a 3 level investment if I go that route, where as just one level is needed for Mysterious Stranger. What I take from that is since there isn't a scaling-per-level ability for gunslingers, like smite is for paladins, that paladin is where i should be putting most of my levels.

As to the what kind of firearm to pick when going MS, why would you see a necessity of taking Musket Master if I choose a two handed firearm, or what makes pistols such a clear choice for a Mysterious Stranger?

[Gruzzle]

Ok, re-read the firearm rules, and the reload times for two-handers vs one-handers seems the clear answer to the last post. /facepalm.

So we go MS/Paladin, with the first level as MS, what Feat progression would you guys recommend, assuming I am gunning (haha) for the Snap Shot line eventually?

[Feint's End]

Well Ranged Characters are very feat heavy. There is a lot of feats you want to have before going the snap shot route:

Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shot

Those are all pretty much mandatory. If you are a human you can have them all by level 7 and start gaining your first Snap Shot feat at level 11.

The order I'd go:
1. Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
5. Deadly Aim
7. Clustered Shot
9. Weapon Focus
11. Snap Shot
13. Improved Precise Shot (it would be smarter to pick this first at level 11)
15. Improved Snap Shot
17. Combat Reflexes (for more AOOs)
19. ??? (Greater Snap Shot maybe)


Honestly I can understand why you want Snap Shot but it's not a good idea on that build since you don't get any bonusfeats except for your first level one. You can of course get it eventually but I wouldn't count on the campaign reaching that level.

Stats I'd put in the following order:
Str 9 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 12 We 8 Cha 15

edit: fixed order ... Divine Hunter is pretty much mandatory for the feat

edit 2: You definitely won't have to worry about damage with that build. You have very good damage on all levels and if you count in Smite Evil it gets even better. At level 5 you are looking at something like (assuming cha of 16ish):
+5 bab + 6 dex -2 deadly aim - 2 rapid shot + 3 cha + 1 magic weapon= +10/+10 versus touch ac
1d8 weapon+4 deadly aim+1 magic weapon + 3 cha + 4 paladin= 16.5 average per attack

Of course this is only while spending grit and smiting evil but I think you get the idea. It only gets better from there with more iteratives and you have an overall good scaling which means you don't have to worry about getting more damage (not saying you can't get more but it's always nice to know you don't have to worry).

[Gruzzle]

Feint's End, this is fantastic, thank you very much! This build order is presuming 1st level Mysterious Stranger, and then taking every subsequent level as Divine Hunter, correct?

[Feint's End]

Feint's End, this is fantastic, thank you very much! This build order is presuming 1st level Mysterious Stranger, and then taking every subsequent level as Divine Hunter, correct?

Glad I could help.

Yes this buildorder assumes Mysterious Stranger at first level and then taking every subsequent level in Divine Hunter. I would say it works pretty well from level 3 onwards (from there it just gets stronger level by level) but it's definitely playable from level 1.

[Gruzzle]

What kind of traits do you think would work well for this guy? I like the Never Stop Shooting trait, fluff-wise, but I'm not sure about the practical use. I mean, how often do I really expect to be "dying" and still needing to throw down damage.

I also like Friend in Every Town, helps me fulfill the roll of the Face of the group.

[Feint's End]

What kind of traits do you think would work well for this guy? I like the Never Stop Shooting trait, fluff-wise, but I'm not sure about the practical use. I mean, how often do I really expect to be "dying" and still needing to throw down damage.

I also like Friend in Every Town, helps me fulfill the roll of the Face of the group.

I personally love Reactonary. A +2 trait bonus to Initiative is always an awesome idea. If you plan on being face / talk regulary then Friend in Every Town is a decent idea too. Maybe more powerful would be Dangerously Curious though. UMD is a fantastic skill (and Paladins get Diplomacy anyways ... don't they?).

My suggestion would be to pick Reactonary and Dangerously Curious. I can see it not fitting your character concept so Never Stop Shooting isn't all too bad if you want it. Either way it won't be terrible for your character.

[Gruzzle]

Dangerously Curious is actually a fantastic idea, Feint's End! We don't, to my knowledge, have anyone planning on playing a rogue or bard. That being said, we will have a wizard and possibly a magus. None-the-less, a very useful skill in a party that doesn't have any clear healing options beyond wands.

[Gruzzle]

I've never been a huge fan of going first in combat, oddly, so unless there's a mechanic that would benefit from more reliably going first (like rogues being able to catch folks flatfooted for sneak attack) I'll probably hold on to my Friend in Every Town. I will eventually get Diplomacy once I start taking paly levels, but being able to pick it up at first level is nice. Allows for more ranks and bonuses in what I am betting will be an often used skill.

Honestly, this character's usefulness in a part of game-play beyond combat is what drew me to this build in the first place. Our group doesn't really have any dedicated heavy damage characters, nor a face, nor a healer, and this seemed a very cool and characterful option to fill two of those roles.