"good" mindrape

[Elderand]

Right. So in all of the stories, real or imagined, where someone who has lived a life of iniquity hears a sermon, realizes that their life up til then has been empty, and converts on the spot, what really happened is that they died and someone else took over the helm. I mean, I know they're prone to calling themselves "Born Again", but that's supposed to be figurative.

Except such a sermon would use, wait for it, diplomacy.

This spell isn't changing someone's mind gradualy or with a check, or offering a save. What it is doing is building up a charge for nearly a year and then zap you in the brain to not only make you good but the exact same type of good the caster was.

It's not convincing someone to do better, it's merely a somewhat reversible magical lobotomy.

[Dalebert]

Sanctify the Wicked is like locking them in your basement until they get Stockholm Syndrome. Yet somehow, the latter is a Sanctified spell.

Oooooh, like when

Spoiler: Supernatural

Show

Sam tied up Crowley in a church and repeatedly injected him with his blood.

[Jeff the Green]

Except such a sermon would use, wait for it, diplomacy.

This spell isn't changing someone's mind gradualy or with a check, or offering a save. What it is doing is building up a charge for nearly a year and then zap you in the brain to not only make you good but the exact same type of good the caster was.

It's not convincing someone to do better, it's merely a somewhat reversible magical lobotomy.

If you were giving the sermon, sure. If a magical construct that could probe a creature's thoughts to figure out the perfect argument and impart that argument directly to the creature's brain without the need for imperfect language were the one doing it, then no, it wouldn't.

The fact is that the spell is entirely devoid of fluff indicating that it is or isn't brainwashing. I've made a suggestion that is consistent with both its effects and its tags, which is enough justification for the spell's coherence.

(And, to preempt quibbles about the duration, maybe the spell needs time to work out and impart the argument. Maybe the argument is only a seed and it requires time of peaceful contemplation which the outside world cannot provide to bear fruit. Maybe the spell needs to prepare the creature for the argument that will eventually convince it of the truth by replaying key parts of the creature's life from an objective point of view.)

[Hecuba]

i've seen people refer to "Sanctify the Wicked" as a good version of mindrape before and it came up in 2 recent threads so i was wondering: why do people think this? StW only changes someones alignment, that doesnt mean theyll help you or tell you anything. mindrape is complete knowledge of and control over ANY person. StW costs you 10k and an entire level AND has a year during which all your work can become undone. mindrape is instantaneous and doesnt cost you anything... StW really only does a small fraction of what Mindrape can do.

(i realize the cost stuff might not be relevant, but i thought it important to point out all the ways the 2 are different)

The StW= MR equivalence always seems to my eye to be the result of missing some important context. It is, however, context that is not included in the book and not particularly compatible with the existence of naturally Evil entities in a setting.

The fluff of Sanctify the Wicked ("The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness") seems to point generally in the direction of the idea that the natural state of people is goodness and that, if they had true understanding, evil people would become disgusted with themselves and seek redemption.

This position is grossly incompatible with the rest of the D&D alignment system: it can't be readily reconciled with the existence of non-Good outsiders nor with the existence of any Evil creatures that are truly wise (since this presumes that evil is folly).

[Desiani]

If the creature is a non-Outsider, I acknowledge that, as a denizen of the Material, it has those delightful things like free choice and the ability to alter its fate through action. Although the Sanctified template strongly encourages it to remain Good, it is not required to. That said, I should note that the language of the template does strongly suggest that it would lack the desire to become Evil again, at least in the immediate future. I would compare it to the forced alignment change of a Helm of Opposite Alignment:

I note further that natives of the Material might lose the desire to return to their former alignment, but not the ability. Natives of the Material always have the ability.

Now, Outsiders are a different story. Note that Outsiders who receive the Sanctified template gain the (Good) subtype. That's major, because it means that being Good is now a fundamental part of the creature's being. It's not just a mental state; the creature is Good, inherently. Becoming non-Good would require a constant, active struggle. Consider the famous (in alignment discussions) illustration of the Succubus Paladin, a creature with the (Chaotic) and (Evil) subtypes who has embraced a life of Law and Good. Better yet, let's go to the videotape:
A creature with the (Good) subtype would have to struggle valiantly against its nature to become Evil, and thus lose the Sanctified template. Possible, certainly, but much harder than it would be for a native of the Material.

So does this mean you could use this on a pit fiend or even A Lord of Hell/Abyss to make them a Good Creature if they fail the save to make it into the crystal?

[Red Fel]

So does this mean you could use this on a pit fiend or even A Lord of Hell/Abyss to make them a Good Creature if they fail the save to make it into the crystal?

Well, here's the confusing part. On the one hand, you have this language from the Sanctified Creature template:

“Sanctified creature” is an acquired template that can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype (referred to hereafter as “base creature”).

On the other hand, two sentences later, you get this:

Outsiders gain the good subtype and lose any of the following subtypes: baatezu (devil), tanar’ri (demon), and yugoloth.

Now, I don't know how many creatures have the (baatezu), (tanar'ri), or (yugoloth) subtypes and don't have the (evil) subtype. I note, for example, that the Devils listed on the SRD have the (evil), (lawful), and (extraplanar) subtypes, but not the (baatezu) subtype. So there ought to be some overlap, but doesn't seem to be.

But the explicit RAW is that it doesn't work on Evil Outsiders. The template "can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype[.]" So, no, you can't apply the template to a Pit Fiend.

The problem becomes compounded when you look at the Sanctify the Wicked spell. The target is "one evil creature," not "one evil creature except for Evil Outsiders," so the spell can be used on an Evil Outsider. If successful, the spell forcibly changes the target's alignment. However, this is independent of the Sanctified Creature template, and therefore could be applied to an Evil Outsider (whose inherently Evil being would likely override its new alignment before too long).

But then the spell says that the target is transformed into a Sanctified Creature. Boom. Well, what do you do if the spell says "turn it into a Sanctified Creature," and the template says it can't be applied?

I have no idea.

[Desiani]

Well, here's the confusing part. On the one hand, you have this language from the Sanctified Creature template:

On the other hand, two sentences later, you get this:

Now, I don't know how many creatures have the (baatezu), (tanar'ri), or (yugoloth) subtypes and don't have the (evil) subtype. I note, for example, that the Devils listed on the SRD have the (evil), (lawful), and (extraplanar) subtypes, but not the (baatezu) subtype. So there ought to be some overlap, but doesn't seem to be.

But the explicit RAW is that it doesn't work on Evil Outsiders. The template "can be added to any evil creature except for outskmiders with the evil subtype[.]" So, no, you can't apply the template to a Pit Fiend.

The problem becomes compounded when you look at the Sanctify the Wicked spell. The target is "one evil creature," not "one evil creature except for Evil Outsiders," so the spell can be used on an Evil Outsider. If successful, the spell forcibly changes the target's alignment. However, this is independent of the Sanctified Creature template, and therefore could be applied to an Evil Outsider (whose inherently Evil being would likely override its new alignment before too long).

But then the spell says that the target is transformed into a Sanctified Creature. Boom. Well, what do you do if the spell says "turn it into a Sanctified Creature," and the template says it can't be applied?

I have no idea.

Which is why I ask... I am playing a characther with access to the spell and I was trying to see of I could do this to turn the BBEGs best friend into a BBGG party friend... lol

pit fiend for a pet would be hilarious

[atemu1234]

Well, here's the confusing part. On the one hand, you have this language from the Sanctified Creature template:

On the other hand, two sentences later, you get this:

Now, I don't know how many creatures have the (baatezu), (tanar'ri), or (yugoloth) subtypes and don't have the (evil) subtype. I note, for example, that the Devils listed on the SRD have the (evil), (lawful), and (extraplanar) subtypes, but not the (baatezu) subtype. So there ought to be some overlap, but doesn't seem to be.

But the explicit RAW is that it doesn't work on Evil Outsiders. The template "can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype[.]" So, no, you can't apply the template to a Pit Fiend.

The problem becomes compounded when you look at the Sanctify the Wicked spell. The target is "one evil creature," not "one evil creature except for Evil Outsiders," so the spell can be used on an Evil Outsider. If successful, the spell forcibly changes the target's alignment. However, this is independent of the Sanctified Creature template, and therefore could be applied to an Evil Outsider (whose inherently Evil being would likely override its new alignment before too long).

But then the spell says that the target is transformed into a Sanctified Creature. Boom. Well, what do you do if the spell says "turn it into a Sanctified Creature," and the template says it can't be applied?

I have no idea.

Yeah, that's more my issue with the spell. Fluff can be debated. Fixing the crunch is important.

[Jeff the Green]

But then the spell says that the target is transformed into a Sanctified Creature. Boom. Well, what do you do if the spell says "turn it into a Sanctified Creature," and the template says it can't be applied?

I have no idea.

Specific over general? The template's obviously a mess, but the interaction with the spell seems clear.

[ShurikVch]

I don't think StW actually make creatures into good

I think it make fake "good" personality and stick it into the target
It's the main reason why new alignment so fast to stick on and so easy to break out

I can compare Sanctified creatures with "ensouled" vampires from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angel may be good, but fake; Angelus is real. Truth can be ugly, but it didn't make it any less truth.

Occasionally, some evil character can turn good, but usually it's gradual slow process.
For example, let's take Drizzt Do'Urden. How much time it taken before he actually stopped being evil?

On the other hand, occasions of "villain turned good fast and easy way" usually happen as gag and doesn't last for long. Let's see: "Snugglejuice" Beetlejuice, Dr. Drakken in "Bad Boy"... They are 1) pathetic; 2) not stay in this mode for long
Even Zordrak from Dreamstone in that situation looked... strange

Spoiler: 1:35, 6:10, 15:55, 18:45

Show

Damn it, even Belkar turned non-evil for the whole five frames!

Anyway, Sanctified creature is a ticking bomb. One successful cast of Morality Undone - and it will get all it's evilness back

P. S. StW can turn "good" a Taint Elemental from Heroes of Horror - creature arguably more evil than anybody else - it literally made of evil

[sleepyphoenixx]

Anyway, Sanctified creature is a ticking bomb. One successful cast of Morality Undone - and it will get all it's evilness back

Which isn't much of an argument since Morality Undone turns everyone evil, not just redeemed former evil creatures.

[ShurikVch]

Which isn't much of an argument since Morality Undone turns everyone evil, not just redeemed former evil creatures.

Everyone turn evil for 10 minutes/level, Sanctified creature - permanently

[lord_khaine]

I don't think StW actually make creatures into good

I think it make fake "good" personality and stick it into the target
It's the main reason why new alignment so fast to stick on and so easy to break out

You are of course welcome to house rule this, but its not what the official fluff says.

Everyone turn evil for 10 minutes/level, Sanctified creature - permanently

Where does this idea come from? There is nothing in the spell descriptions that support this idea.

[Elderand]

Where does this idea come from? There is nothing in the spell descriptions that support this idea.

It's from the sanctified creature template

A sanctified creature that reverts to evil, deliberately or not,
loses all benefits of this template. Essentially, it is restored to its
state prior to becoming a sanctified creature.

[Jeff the Green]

It's from the sanctified creature template

A sanctified creature that reverts to evil, deliberately or not,
loses all benefits of this template. Essentially, it is restored to its
state prior to becoming a sanctified creature.

"Essentially" is the key word there. That means it's a generalization or clarification. Being Good is an effect of StW, not just the template. So it loses the template but thereafter reverts to good when the spell ends.

[Sartharina]

"Sanctify the Wicked" is an ultimate "You don't have to be the bad guy" speech.

One of the postulates of this spell is that "Within even the blackest of souls, there is a Good person trying to get out". StW grabs that person, and, over the course of the year, allows them to free themselves from the evil encasing it.

... that said, I have no idea why it changes the Law/Chaos aspect of a person.

Except such a sermon would use, wait for it, diplomacy.

Diplomacy does not work on all creatures.

This spell isn't changing someone's mind gradualy or with a check, or offering a save. What it is doing is building up a charge for nearly a year and then zap you in the brain to not only make you good but the exact same type of good the caster was.

It's not convincing someone to do better, it's merely a somewhat reversible magical lobotomy.

That is a fluff/crunch disconnect on par with Drown Healing, not what's actually supposed to happen.

[Elderand]

"Essentially" is the key word there. That means it's a generalization or clarification. Being Good is an effect of StW, not just the template. So it loses the template but thereafter reverts to good when the spell ends.

That's not what essentialy mean

1. in a fundamental or basic way; in essence

it's not used to say there could be exception, it's used as emphasis.

And you're highliting another problem of sanctify the wicked. If the alignement change is separate from the template granted, then you can't actualy put the template on the creature at all. Because it's not evil anymore.

[Jeff the Green]

And you're highliting another problem of sanctify the wicked. If the alignement change is separate from the template granted, then you can't actualy put the template on the creature at all. Because it's not evil anymore.

Not a problem at all; specific trumps general.

[Sartharina]

That's not what essentialy mean

1. in a fundamental or basic way; in essence

it's not used to say there could be exception, it's used as emphasis.

And you're highliting another problem of sanctify the wicked. If the alignement change is separate from the template granted, then you can't actualy put the template on the creature at all. Because it's not evil anymore.

In figurative language, "Essentially" means 'Broad strokes" effect. That said - it's understandable how it happens, given that Magic is involved.

[Elderand]

In figurative language, "Essentially" means 'Broad strokes" effect. That said - it's understandable how it happens, given that Magic is involved.

Except that is clear that it is not used to mean "mostly".
And the "it's magic" or specific trump general arguments do not actually work in this case. Why ? Because the only way for a creature to gain this template, the sole way to get it, is to be hit by a sanctify the wicked.

The two are one and the same, therefore all limitation to the template apply to the spell as well.

So there is only one of two possibility, either the alignement change and the template are separate effect of the spell, in which case nothing can ever get the template, or the alignement change is a result of the template, in which case anything that will alter alignement toward evil, will make the creature return to evil permanently proving that the change of heart was not genuine.

[Ettina]

You are aware that forcing someone to sit through a lecture, even one that is perfectly effective, is entirely different from entirely rewriting their personality, right? StW changes only their alignment. Nothing else.

Are you implying that a character's alignment isn't fundamental to their personality? Because a Lawful Good Belkar would be a fundamentally different person, in my opinion.

Or, for another side, an alignment quiz pegged me as Chaotic Good. The traits it used to call me that were my sense of empathy for others (Good), my deep-seated fear of being controlled by others (Chaotic), my poor planning and impulsivity (Chaotic), my strong desire to change the world for the better (Good), and so forth. I can assure you that all of those traits are pretty fundamental to my personality. I would not be the same person if any of those changed.

[DeltaEmil]

Well, here's the confusing part. On the one hand, you have this language from the Sanctified Creature template:

On the other hand, two sentences later, you get this:

Now, I don't know how many creatures have the (baatezu), (tanar'ri), or (yugoloth) subtypes and don't have the (evil) subtype. I note, for example, that the Devils listed on the SRD have the (evil), (lawful), and (extraplanar) subtypes, but not the (baatezu) subtype. So there ought to be some overlap, but doesn't seem to be.

The SRD does not have the terms baatezu and tanar'ri, because these terms are the copyright of WotC. The Monster Manuals do have those names.

For example, Kytons and Hellcats are devils that do not belong to the Baatezu-devil race. Every baatezu is a devil, but not every devil (outsider with the lawful and evil subtype) is a baatezu.

Fiendish Codex 1 also added the loumaraand the obyrinths as two demon species.

[ShurikVch]

Being Good is an effect of StW, not just the template. So it loses the template but thereafter reverts to good when the spell ends.

Prove it.
Quotes, please

[Larkas]

Prove it.
Quotes, please

Prove that it isn't so.

Quotes, please.

[ShurikVch]

Prove that it isn't so.

Quotes, please.

If you ask...

Spoiler: Sanctify the Wicked

Show

Sanctify the Wicked
Necromancy [Good]
Level: Sanctified 9
Components: V, S, F, Sacrifice
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One evil creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle (the spell’s focus). The creature’s soulless body instantly withers or molders into dust.
Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire. After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good). Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).
If the diamond is shattered before the soul has found penitence, the evil creature’s body and soul are fully restored; the creature’s state is just as it was before the spell was cast. The creature retains the memory of having been trapped in the gem, and it regards the spell’s caster as a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.
The diamond receptacle has a hardness
of 20 and 1 hit point.
Focus: A flawless diamond worth no less than 10,000 gp.
Sacrifice: 1 character level.

1) Please, point me, where it says it make creature good?
2) Duration of spell ends when someone shattered the gem

[hamishspence]

1) Please, point me, where it says it make creature good?

After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good).

[kellbyb]

If you ask...

1) Please, point me, where it says it make creature good?

Spoiler: Sanctify the Wicked

Show

Sanctify the Wicked
Necromancy [Good]
Level: Sanctified 9
Components: V, S, F, Sacrifice
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One evil creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle (the spell’s focus). The creature’s soulless body instantly withers or molders into dust.
Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire. After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good). Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).
If the diamond is shattered before the soul has found penitence, the evil creature’s body and soul are fully restored; the creature’s state is just as it was before the spell was cast. The creature retains the memory of having been trapped in the gem, and it regards the spell’s caster as a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.
The diamond receptacle has a hardness
of 20 and 1 hit point.
Focus: A flawless diamond worth no less than 10,000 gp.
Sacrifice: 1 character level.

Highlighted it for your convenience.

[ShurikVch]

After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good).

Flavor text

[Larkas]

1) Please, point me, where it says it make creature good?

Sure, here you go:

After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good).

2) Duration of spell ends when someone shattered the gem

And that is relevant how?

Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).

Care to try again?

[HaikenEdge]

So, let's say for argument's sake that Sanctify the Wicked is either (A) the ultimate "You don't have to be a bad guy" speech, or (B) helps a victim find the grain of good inside of them; how would it actually interact with a character who is without any good at all or is incapable of understanding good?

That's to say, as previously mentioned by other posters, if Sanctify the Wicked's premise is that evil is a folly, and the spell "helps" its victim(s) reflect upon their folly, how does somebody incapable of differentiating between good and evil, say, somebody so completely amoral they can't even tell the difference between the two? That's not to say a character with an intelligence so low it's incapable of understanding morality due to not being intelligent enough, but somebody who, on an intellectual level, does not accept the divide between good and evil, and believes at the very core good versus evil is itself a faulty premise, either due to their own logical conclusions, or due to some psychological trauma suffered previously, or somebody for whom good and evil just never registers on an intellectual level.