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Thread: "good" mindrape
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2014-09-03, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Except such a sermon would use, wait for it, diplomacy.
This spell isn't changing someone's mind gradualy or with a check, or offering a save. What it is doing is building up a charge for nearly a year and then zap you in the brain to not only make you good but the exact same type of good the caster was.
It's not convincing someone to do better, it's merely a somewhat reversible magical lobotomy.
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2014-09-03, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?
In real estate, they say it's all about location, location, location. In D&D I say it's about action economy, action economy, action economy.
Crystal Mage -- a homebrewed arcane tradition
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2014-09-03, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
If you were giving the sermon, sure. If a magical construct that could probe a creature's thoughts to figure out the perfect argument and impart that argument directly to the creature's brain without the need for imperfect language were the one doing it, then no, it wouldn't.
The fact is that the spell is entirely devoid of fluff indicating that it is or isn't brainwashing. I've made a suggestion that is consistent with both its effects and its tags, which is enough justification for the spell's coherence.
(And, to preempt quibbles about the duration, maybe the spell needs time to work out and impart the argument. Maybe the argument is only a seed and it requires time of peaceful contemplation which the outside world cannot provide to bear fruit. Maybe the spell needs to prepare the creature for the argument that will eventually convince it of the truth by replaying key parts of the creature's life from an objective point of view.)Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2014-09-03, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
The StW= MR equivalence always seems to my eye to be the result of missing some important context. It is, however, context that is not included in the book and not particularly compatible with the existence of naturally Evil entities in a setting.
The fluff of Sanctify the Wicked ("The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness") seems to point generally in the direction of the idea that the natural state of people is goodness and that, if they had true understanding, evil people would become disgusted with themselves and seek redemption.
This position is grossly incompatible with the rest of the D&D alignment system: it can't be readily reconciled with the existence of non-Good outsiders nor with the existence of any Evil creatures that are truly wise (since this presumes that evil is folly).Last edited by Hecuba; 2014-09-03 at 08:03 AM.
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2014-09-03, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-03, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Well, here's the confusing part. On the one hand, you have this language from the Sanctified Creature template:
“Sanctified creature” is an acquired template that can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype (referred to hereafter as “base creature”).Outsiders gain the good subtype and lose any of the following subtypes: baatezu (devil), tanar’ri (demon), and yugoloth.
But the explicit RAW is that it doesn't work on Evil Outsiders. The template "can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype[.]" So, no, you can't apply the template to a Pit Fiend.
The problem becomes compounded when you look at the Sanctify the Wicked spell. The target is "one evil creature," not "one evil creature except for Evil Outsiders," so the spell can be used on an Evil Outsider. If successful, the spell forcibly changes the target's alignment. However, this is independent of the Sanctified Creature template, and therefore could be applied to an Evil Outsider (whose inherently Evil being would likely override its new alignment before too long).
But then the spell says that the target is transformed into a Sanctified Creature. Boom. Well, what do you do if the spell says "turn it into a Sanctified Creature," and the template says it can't be applied?
I have no idea.My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.
Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.
My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!
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2014-09-03, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-03, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
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2014-09-03, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2014-09-03, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
I don't think StW actually make creatures into good
I think it make fake "good" personality and stick it into the target
It's the main reason why new alignment so fast to stick on and so easy to break out
I can compare Sanctified creatures with "ensouled" vampires from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angel may be good, but fake; Angelus is real. Truth can be ugly, but it didn't make it any less truth.
Occasionally, some evil character can turn good, but usually it's gradual slow process.
For example, let's take Drizzt Do'Urden. How much time it taken before he actually stopped being evil?
On the other hand, occasions of "villain turned good fast and easy way" usually happen as gag and doesn't last for long. Let's see: "Snugglejuice" Beetlejuice, Dr. Drakken in "Bad Boy"... They are 1) pathetic; 2) not stay in this mode for long
Even Zordrak from Dreamstone in that situation looked... strangeSpoiler: 1:35, 6:10, 15:55, 18:45
Damn it, even Belkar turned non-evil for the whole five frames!
Anyway, Sanctified creature is a ticking bomb. One successful cast of Morality Undone - and it will get all it's evilness back
P. S. StW can turn "good" a Taint Elemental from Heroes of Horror - creature arguably more evil than anybody else - it literally made of evilLast edited by ShurikVch; 2014-09-03 at 03:39 PM.
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2014-09-03, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-03, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-03, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
I don't think StW actually make creatures into good
I think it make fake "good" personality and stick it into the target
It's the main reason why new alignment so fast to stick on and so easy to break out
Everyone turn evil for 10 minutes/level, Sanctified creature - permanentlythnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2014-09-03, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
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2014-09-03, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2014-09-03, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
"Sanctify the Wicked" is an ultimate "You don't have to be the bad guy" speech.
One of the postulates of this spell is that "Within even the blackest of souls, there is a Good person trying to get out". StW grabs that person, and, over the course of the year, allows them to free themselves from the evil encasing it.
... that said, I have no idea why it changes the Law/Chaos aspect of a person.Diplomacy does not work on all creatures.
This spell isn't changing someone's mind gradualy or with a check, or offering a save. What it is doing is building up a charge for nearly a year and then zap you in the brain to not only make you good but the exact same type of good the caster was.
It's not convincing someone to do better, it's merely a somewhat reversible magical lobotomy.Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-09-03 at 07:10 PM.
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2014-09-03, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
That's not what essentialy mean
1. in a fundamental or basic way; in essence
it's not used to say there could be exception, it's used as emphasis.
And you're highliting another problem of sanctify the wicked. If the alignement change is separate from the template granted, then you can't actualy put the template on the creature at all. Because it's not evil anymore.
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2014-09-03, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2014-09-03, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-03, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Except that is clear that it is not used to mean "mostly".
And the "it's magic" or specific trump general arguments do not actually work in this case. Why ? Because the only way for a creature to gain this template, the sole way to get it, is to be hit by a sanctify the wicked.
The two are one and the same, therefore all limitation to the template apply to the spell as well.
So there is only one of two possibility, either the alignement change and the template are separate effect of the spell, in which case nothing can ever get the template, or the alignement change is a result of the template, in which case anything that will alter alignement toward evil, will make the creature return to evil permanently proving that the change of heart was not genuine.Last edited by Elderand; 2014-09-03 at 07:27 PM.
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2014-09-03, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Are you implying that a character's alignment isn't fundamental to their personality? Because a Lawful Good Belkar would be a fundamentally different person, in my opinion.
Or, for another side, an alignment quiz pegged me as Chaotic Good. The traits it used to call me that were my sense of empathy for others (Good), my deep-seated fear of being controlled by others (Chaotic), my poor planning and impulsivity (Chaotic), my strong desire to change the world for the better (Good), and so forth. I can assure you that all of those traits are pretty fundamental to my personality. I would not be the same person if any of those changed.
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2014-09-03, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
The SRD does not have the terms baatezu and tanar'ri, because these terms are the copyright of WotC. The Monster Manuals do have those names.
For example, Kytons and Hellcats are devils that do not belong to the Baatezu-devil race. Every baatezu is a devil, but not every devil (outsider with the lawful and evil subtype) is a baatezu.
Fiendish Codex 1 also added the loumaraand the obyrinths as two demon species.
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2014-09-04, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-04, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Metal Perfection - a template for creatures born on Mirrodin.
True Ferocity - a simple fix for Orcs and Half-Orcs.
Monastic Magus - a spiritual successor to the Unarmed Swordsage.
Pathfinder-ish Synthesist - a simple fix making Synthesist Summoners follow polymorph rules.
Sword & Sorcery for Sneaky Scoundrels - rogue archetypes/fixes that aim to turn the rogue into a warrior/caster.
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2014-09-04, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
If you ask...
Spoiler: Sanctify the WickedSanctify the Wicked
Necromancy [Good]
Level: Sanctified 9
Components: V, S, F, Sacrifice
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One evil creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle (the spell’s focus). The creature’s soulless body instantly withers or molders into dust.
Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire. After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good). Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).
If the diamond is shattered before the soul has found penitence, the evil creature’s body and soul are fully restored; the creature’s state is just as it was before the spell was cast. The creature retains the memory of having been trapped in the gem, and it regards the spell’s caster as a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.
The diamond receptacle has a hardness
of 20 and 1 hit point.
Focus: A flawless diamond worth no less than 10,000 gp.
Sacrifice: 1 character level.
1) Please, point me, where it says it make creature good?
2) Duration of spell ends when someone shattered the gem
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2014-09-04, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-04, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Spoiler: Sanctify the WickedSanctify the Wicked
Necromancy [Good]
Level: Sanctified 9
Components: V, S, F, Sacrifice
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One evil creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle (the spell’s focus). The creature’s soulless body instantly withers or molders into dust.
Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire. After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good). Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).
If the diamond is shattered before the soul has found penitence, the evil creature’s body and soul are fully restored; the creature’s state is just as it was before the spell was cast. The creature retains the memory of having been trapped in the gem, and it regards the spell’s caster as a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.
The diamond receptacle has a hardness
of 20 and 1 hit point.
Focus: A flawless diamond worth no less than 10,000 gp.
Sacrifice: 1 character level.
Highlighted it for your convenience.
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2014-09-04, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-04, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
Sure, here you go:
After one year, the trapped creature’s soul adopts the alignment of the spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good).
Once the soul’s penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature’s original body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).Last edited by Larkas; 2014-09-04 at 08:43 AM.
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2014-09-04, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "good" mindrape
So, let's say for argument's sake that Sanctify the Wicked is either (A) the ultimate "You don't have to be a bad guy" speech, or (B) helps a victim find the grain of good inside of them; how would it actually interact with a character who is without any good at all or is incapable of understanding good?
That's to say, as previously mentioned by other posters, if Sanctify the Wicked's premise is that evil is a folly, and the spell "helps" its victim(s) reflect upon their folly, how does somebody incapable of differentiating between good and evil, say, somebody so completely amoral they can't even tell the difference between the two? That's not to say a character with an intelligence so low it's incapable of understanding morality due to not being intelligent enough, but somebody who, on an intellectual level, does not accept the divide between good and evil, and believes at the very core good versus evil is itself a faulty premise, either due to their own logical conclusions, or due to some psychological trauma suffered previously, or somebody for whom good and evil just never registers on an intellectual level.