Hearthstone 8: At the end of this thread, resummon all friendly posters.

[Qwertystop]

I've seen people say that Alarm-o-Bot isn't very good, but personally I've had some success. Most games I never get it to trigger (though there was one game where it ran three times), but it almost always provokes a targeted clear spell or an attack-turn from a minion strong enough to worry about. Once or twice I even got it with a Raid Leader and damaged the stuff that was killing it. Thoughts?

[ex cathedra]

I've seen people say that Alarm-o-Bot isn't very good, but personally I've had some success. Most games I never get it to trigger (though there was one game where it ran three times), but it almost always provokes a targeted clear spell or an attack-turn from a minion strong enough to worry about. Once or twice I even got it with a Raid Leader and damaged the stuff that was killing it. Thoughts?

provoking an attack isn't worth it. even if it gets hit by a really strong creature, like 6+ power, you spent 3 mana to gain 6+ life. if you have a lot of life then it that doesn't even matter, and if you're low on life then they can probably get close to killing you just by going for your face.

6 or even 8 life is very rarely worth 1 card and 3 mana, especially when your opponent gets to choose when or even if you get that life in the first place. that doesn't even mention the case where a-o-b dies to a 1 or 2-mana 3/2.

then you have to consider that the potential upside is a random chance (that it hits the right creature) on top of a conditional (that you have a good creature to hit in the first place) and that the upside is nothing but tempo (which innervate often does better), and a lot of people come to the conclusion that it isn't worth it.

[Mystic Muse]

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

[Kish]

It still synergizes with Tundra Wolf and Scavenging Hyena. Cult Master too. You play any of those the turn after the Snake Trap activates and you'll get some value.

Tundra Wolf? You mean Timber Wolf?
All of those are dependent on your opponent leaving the snakes on the board long enough for you to do anything with them, when they can only be summoned on your opponent's turn; Cult Master and Scavenging Hyena hinge on "you have something to throw the snakes away on and therefore your opponent had a way to kill [at least one of them; under ideal conditions for you, your opponent traded away one minion killing something unimportant of yours and now has a Voidwalker or Ironfur Grizzly and nothing else on the board, and also this means you've already been way luckier than you should plan for] and didn't take it."
I call "2 mana, summons three 1/1 beasts, only on your opponent's turn" a really crappy card. The only real synergy it ever had, was that if you played both Buzzard and Snake Trap on the same turn, you might, assuming your opponent didn't have a way to kill the buzzard without throwing a minion at it, force your opponent to choose between "leave the buzzard on the board" or "kill the buzzard but only after giving you three cards." Nerfing Buzzard that extremely will take Snake Trap from mediocre-bad to just plain horrible; if anyone gets anywhere noticeable with it, I'll be amazed.

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

Priest.

Not because it's terribly powerful as such, but because I hate dealing with that kind of randomness.

[Zevox]

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

Easily Hunter. Entirely because of Unleash the Hounds. I really dislike that that card effectively punishes me for having a good board.

Of course, that's about to become less of an issue, since the thing it synergizes most with is going away. We'll see if that helps.

[ex cathedra]

Easily Hunter. Entirely because of Unleash the Hounds. I really dislike that that card effectively punishes me for having a good board.

every AoE spell does that, knowing when to not overextend is an important skill

[Zevox]

every AoE spell does that, knowing when to not overextend is an important skill

AoE spells just kill my stuff. Unleash the Hounds gives my opponent minions, cards (Buzzard), buffs (Hyena), and frequently also kills my things. Other AoE can also be played around based on how durable the minions on the field are, since they do set damage. Unleash cannot, since there's Wolves to buff them and Hunter's Mark to turn one hound into effectively hard removal against anything without divine shield.

Against Hunter, you don't avoid overextending - you simply never play more than 2 minions, three at an absolute maximum, no matter what those minions may be, because of Hounds, and all the insanity it can cause.

[Anxe]

Mage because the class has an answer to everything.
Big creature? Fireball or Polymorph
Lots of creatures? Blizzard and Flamestrike
Kill my Creatures? Duplicate
Get Card Advantage? Arcane Intellect
You have lethal? Ice Block

[Zevox]

Huh. So, strange match I had tonight. My opponent was a Zoolock... who never tapped. Not once. Not even on a turn where he started topdecking and was at 27 health (had played a Flame Imp earlier). Not even while topdecking afterwards. It was weird.

Mage because the class has an answer to everything.
Big creature? Fireball or Polymorph
Lots of creatures? Blizzard and Flamestrike

Everybody has those. Hex, Assassinate, Equality, Siphon Souls, etc; Consecrate, Lightning Storm, Blade Flurry, Holy Nova, etc.

[ShinyRocks]

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

Paladin. Equality combos and Aldor Peacekeeper are just so *obnoxious*. In Casual, I autoconcede against Paladins. In Ranked, I strongly consider it.

[Thomas Cardew]

I... I do not get this game. I'm 10-2 in arena with priest on a deck I figured would struggle to hit 5-6 while my mage draft with Onxyia, Cairne, 2x Flamestike, 2x polymorph, 2x frost bolt, 2x water elemental and other goodies goes 3-3. I'm not complaining. I just don't understand.

Spoiler: Priest sorted by mana

Show

Worgen Infiltrator, Young Priestess, Light Warden, Shieldbearer, 2x Northshire Cleric

Shadow Word Pain, 2x Mad bomber

Shadow Word Death, Thought Steal, Big Game Hunter, 2x Dark Cultist, Harvest Golem, Injured Blademaster, 2x Raging Worgen, Shattered Sun Cleric

Aucheni Soulpriest

Holy Nova, Azure Drake, Spectral Knight, Stranglethorn Tiger, Venture Co. Merc

Priestess of Elune, Temple Enforcer,

2x Mind Control, Molten Giant

I get there's a lot of synergy between the Dark Cultist and well everything else, but despite draw either Mind Control or Molten Giant in my starting hand, I've just been doing insane.

And most hated class was probably hunter but I've got a priest deck with a really good match up against now. So probably priest or paladin now. Priest just turns into a full deck slug fest won by extended fatigue sessions, paladin becomes the same with their decent healing and spam of crap like aldor peacekeeper, equality, etc.


EDIT: HOLY BONUS HEALTH BATMAN!!!!! 12-2 First time.
Gold Lightspawn, Gold Shadowflame, 245 Gold, and pack with 4 commons and a Tidecaller

[Anxe]

Huh. So, strange match I had tonight. My opponent was a Zoolock... who never tapped. Not once. Not even on a turn where he started topdecking and was at 27 health (had played a Flame Imp earlier). Not even while topdecking afterwards. It was weird.


Everybody has those. Hex, Assassinate, Equality, Siphon Souls, etc; Consecrate, Lightning Storm, Blade Flurry, Holy Nova, etc.

They're just more terrifying in the Mage. Blizzard and Flamestrike are the best board clear. Polymorph is just as good as Hex (no death rattles to worry about like with the other destroy a minion cards).

[Gandariel]

They're just more terrifying in the Mage. Blizzard and Flamestrike are the best board clear. Polymorph is just as good as Hex (no death rattles to worry about like with the other destroy a minion cards).

Blizzard *USED* to be one of the best board clears... back when it costed 5 mana.

Blizzard is (together with Holy Nova and Blade flurry IMO) the *worst* board clear. (Starfall is bad too, but at least it has 2 choices)


Flamestrike is good in constructed and excellent in Arena, but it's definitely worse than Lightning Storm (and on par with Consecration, i'd say).
Also, Hex > Polymorph.



On the balance changes.
Wow. I didn't really expect them.
I liked the current meta!
Hunters will now have NO card draw, which is awful. Every class has a card draw engine and now Hunter will be the only one without one. I really have no idea what came into their minds with a 5 mana 3/2. Might as well delete it.

Leeroy... Huh. I mean, sure everybody complained about it, but frankly everyone had also gotten used to him and to how it worked. Miracle Rogue will take a HUGE hit, since it now takes 11 mana to triple Leeroy. To supply the lack of burst we will maybe see some new additions in the Miracle deck, like Anu'bar ambushers and more use of Vancleef.

Overall: Buzzard => Might as well cancel the card. BAD idea.
Leeroy => ... if you really have to, i think 4 was a right price, *bordering* on the strong side.
I don't think the changes were really needed. We'll see.

Trivia: i saw a guy who had proposed a change to Shadowstep to make Leeroy more reasonable: every time you shadowstep something it loses 1 max hp. (so no triple leeroy, and weaker SI:7s if you reuse them)

[Hamste]

Well, color me shocked.

Well, that makes the Buzzard all but unplayable. Maybe at some point in the future we'll see someone invent a viable Hunter deck that can play slow enough to make it usable in its new form, but I doubt it. More likely I think this'll turn into another Unleash the Hounds situation, where they later change it again, dropping the cost to something more reasonable. No guesses on how long that'll take, though.

The Leeroy change is saner and less significant, though. It'll have a big impact on Miracle Rogue, now that Leeroy double Shadowstep can no longer be done in a single turn. Not sure whether that'll kill the deck entirely though, since I've certainly seen them win with damage spread out over a couple of turns before, so I don't think they're necessarily dependant on a single-turn combo. And I do like how it renders Leeroy + PO + Faceless impossible in Handlock - always ticked me off to have a good match with a Handlock, be winning for most of it, then lose to that combo because I'd taken one hit from a Giant and he'd used a Hellfire or some such. Overall though, I think those two will be the decks most affected by it - others don't really need Leeroy at that specific mana cost.

Handlocks do 4 less damage with the same number of cards and one less mana so they have a weaker but still respectable finisher (druid trumps them now though for finishers with one less card and mana used and 2 less damage). With 1 more card they actually do 24 damage meaning a single hit from a giant kills you.

I predict some rage at arcane golem now that it's bigger brother is getting nerfed, it's damage is weaker but more can be played with it.

[Gandariel]

Handlocks do 4 less damage with the same number of cards and one less mana so they have a weaker but still respectable finisher (druid trumps them now though for finishers with one less card and mana used and 2 less damage). With 1 more card they actually do 24 damage meaning a single hit from a giant kills you.

I predict some rage at arcane golem now that it's bigger brother is getting nerfed, it's damage is weaker but more can be played with it.

Sigh, why are you being so cryptic, now i have to understand what you mean
..So handlock's finisher is now Arcane golem PO Faceless?
And for 10 mana they can play both copies of PO?

Frankly i don't think Handlocks will run 2x Power Overwhelming.

Also, i *HOPE* nobody will complain about Arcane Golem. I get the rage about leeroy, i get the "oh gosh miracle 28 damage in a turn", but frankly i wouldn't even have nerfed Leeroy.

Especially in this meta: Both top decks (hunter and ctrl warrior) have a good matchup vs Miracle, so why complain?
Leeroy is used also in Hunter decks, ok, but they're already (over)nerfing Hunters with the buzzard change, that's more than enough to keep them from being op!

The only classes that used Leeroy were:
- Handlock (as a finisher, can be replaced with arcane golem or by getting more controll-y with Jaraxxus/Alextrasza)
- Shaman (for Windfury combo. Harder to replace here, but then again most Shamans use Al'akir as win con anyways)
- Rogue (as i said, miracle doesn't have a great spot anyways in the meta)
- Hunter (already nerfed)
And sporadically in other random decks, just like Priests like to put 1x Mind blast in the deck.

[nhbdy]

On the least favorite class to play against: mine is hunter, and it's due to their ability to answer almost any board from almost any state from almost any turn (past 5) which just makes them infuriating to play against. Unfortunately for them, blizzard did just smite what appears to be the key to their success and while I felt something might have been necessary, (all I was seeing was hunter or anti-hunter decks) this seems like too much, killing a class is bad.

On mage: I don't see the hate, yes the mage has hard answers to just about everything, they are also much easier to predict. Flooding the board on turn 7? You really did ask for it. Kill their big dude first when they have a secret? Again, seems like you asked for it. Does anyone play their win cons without baiting for hard removal? Because polymorph doesn't seem any worse than the other shenanigans available in the game...

[Thialfi]

Mage because the class has an answer to everything.
Big creature? Fireball or Polymorph
Lots of creatures? Blizzard and Flamestrike
Kill my Creatures? Duplicate
Get Card Advantage? Arcane Intellect
You have lethal? Ice Block

I have never understood the mage hate either. It is easily the hero that I have had the least success with in constructed. It's awesome in arena (unless you have the crappy luck I tend to have when drawing a deck with them), but no matter how much I change my deck around, I can't reliably win with them.

[Tectonic Robot]

I don't like playing against Handlock. Their decks scare me. I don't know how to deal with them.

[Anxe]

I have never understood the mage hate either. It is easily the hero that I have had the least success with in constructed. It's awesome in arena (unless you have the crappy luck I tend to have when drawing a deck with them), but no matter how much I change my deck around, I can't reliably win with them.

My hatred comes from only playing Arena.

[Forbiddenwar]

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

Shaman. Or as I think of them, mage with a credit card.

"I will gladly pay mana for this spell next turn because it kills you this turn."

Hunter is a close second because they hurt you no matter how many minions you have. 1- deadly shot
2- multishot
3 or more UTH

druid trumps them now though for finishers with one less card and mana used and 2 less damage). With 1 more card they actually do 24 damage meaning a single hit from a giant kills you.

22 damage from the hand with forest+savage+innervate+savage. If there is any minion on the board when that comes out it is easily over 30.

Priest can also do 20 damage from the hand as a finisher with the 2/5 charge+ divine+divine+inner fire. But I never see that. Why is that?

[Zevox]

Edit: Huh, Trump's reaction video to the nerfs is up. Short of it: he says Hunters as a class are probably dead, and Leeroy is dead. He expects Miracle Rogue to try switching to the Malygos version, everyone else to just drop Leeroy. A bit more extreme than I'd have expected, at least on the Leeroy side.

They're just more terrifying in the Mage. Blizzard and Flamestrike are the best board clear. Polymorph is just as good as Hex (no death rattles to worry about like with the other destroy a minion cards).

Polymorph is slightly worse than Hex. It costs one more mana and leaves the opponent with something that has an attack score, which is usually more useful than a 0/1 taunt. Still strong, mind you, but not as good.

As for board clear, Blizzard is most definitely not the best board clear. It's one of the weakest, especially since its cost went up. 6 mana for 2 mass damage is a high price, especially considering their alternative doubles the damage for only one more mana. Flamestrike is one of the best board clear spells in the game, but it's also the costliest, which is a significant factor against aggro decks (where board clear is at its most powerful) and against people who play around it with 5+ health minions, divine shield, etc (which is everyone who can). I'd say Flamestrike likely loses the competition for best board clear to Lightning Storm.

I don't like playing against Handlock. Their decks scare me. I don't know how to deal with them.

Depends on what you're playing. Some decks have to rush them down before they can get too much us out of their Giants and Drakes, others reply on having strong answers to them when they come down. The key are those Giants and Drakes though - have a plan for what to do about them. If you can't answer them, then you'll lose, just like with any other big minions.

Priest can also do 20 damage from the hand as a finisher with the 2/5 charge+ divine+divine+inner fire. But I never see that. Why is that?

It's a four-card nine-mana combo, and Priests don't have enough reliable card draw to make it to work. (You'd need Miracle Rogue-level draw to make a combo that big work, and Priest can only get that very situationally with a Northshire Cleric that the opponent somehow lacks an answer to.)

[Frog Dragon]

Priest can also do 20 damage from the hand as a finisher with the 2/5 charge+ divine+divine+inner fire. But I never see that. Why is that?

I think it's because priest doesn't have good enough consistent draw to run cards that are pretty much only useful for combo purposes, and divine spirit and inner fire are cards that are only useful comboed. A priest can't afford to run it because their draw isn't robust enough to offset the potential for dead cards when you can't combo, and the cards themselves aren't good enough to work independently (thus, in another way, solving the problem of "dead combo cards in hand").

Comparing to miracle combos, the priest can't even begin to draw as well as a rogue. Compared to handlock leeroying, same deal. Compared to something like Al'akir Rockbiter Rockbiter, the shaman's combo wins because Rockbiters are still good cards outside of a kill combo. Divine Spirit isn't.

Basically it's a situational combo for a class that can't afford it.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm actually kinda torn about Leeroy. He was always this sort of neutral Fireball. He's almost never going to survive your opponent's turn, so 6 damage for 4 mana is usually all you'll get out of him unless you have a specific combo ready. I put him in most of my decks purely because taking a fifth of my opponent's health with a single hit was usually a pretty handy trump card to have. Now that he costs slightly more, I dunno what to do. I don't believe he's as unplayable as folks make out, although I do understand that you can no longer use double Shadowstep and double Cold Blood or any variation thereof. Yet I don't feel that's a bad thing. One of the most annoying things about Hearthstone is that you can be winning, or even a turn from winning, only for your opponent to pull some stupid combo that basically causes you to lose automatically. The fewer of those combos in the game, the better.

I don't really care about Starving Buzzard, though. I always hated how easily a Hunter could draw so many cards just because you had board advantage. The whole Starving Buzzard + Unleash the Hounds + Timber Wolf combo was pretty stupid and far too easy to pull off. Now that they've killed that combo, I think Hunters will have to play a little more intelligently. They still have the best synergy between class cards, though, so I'm pretty sure they won't be gone for long. In the meanwhile, the rest of us can enjoy playing the game without facing Hunters ten times out of twelve.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'm actually kinda torn about Leeroy. He was always this sort of neutral Fireball. He's almost never going to survive your opponent's turn, so 6 damage for 4 mana is usually all you'll get out of him unless you have a specific combo ready. I put him in most of my decks purely because taking a fifth of my opponent's health with a single hit was usually a pretty handy trump card to have. Now that he costs slightly more, I dunno what to do. I don't believe he's as unplayable as folks make out, although I do understand that you can no longer use double Shadowstep and double Cold Blood or any variation thereof. Yet I don't feel that's a bad thing. One of the most annoying things about Hearthstone is that you can be winning, or even a turn from winning, only for your opponent to pull some stupid combo that basically causes you to lose automatically. The fewer of those combos in the game, the better.

I don't really care about Starving Buzzard, though. I always hated how easily a Hunter could draw so many cards just because you had board advantage. The whole Starving Buzzard + Unleash the Hounds + Timber Wolf combo was pretty stupid and far too easy to pull off. Now that they've killed that combo, I think Hunters will have to play a little more intelligently. They still have the best synergy between class cards, though, so I'm pretty sure they won't be gone for long. In the meanwhile, the rest of us can enjoy playing the game without facing Hunters ten times out of twelve.

I actually don't think Hunters will seen almost any play... as does Trump. on his video about the changes. (He does think Miracle will use Malygos instead of Leeroy as a finisher, though, so I dunno.)

But a big part of what kept Hunter's relevant in the late game was card draw off of Buzzard; Buzzard into Haunted Creeper into Stonetusk Boar into Webspinner and stuff kept refueling the engine, even if you didn't have unleash the hounds. Without buzzard, all Hunter has are cycle cards for card draws. Its just not as strong.

[The_Jackal]

I actually don't think Hunters will seen almost any play... as does Trump. on his video about the changes. (He does think Miracle will use Malygos instead of Leeroy as a finisher, though, so I dunno.)

But a big part of what kept Hunter's relevant in the late game was card draw off of Buzzard; Buzzard into Haunted Creeper into Stonetusk Boar into Webspinner and stuff kept refueling the engine, even if you didn't have unleash the hounds. Without buzzard, all Hunter has are cycle cards for card draws. Its just not as strong.

Yes. The buzzard Nerf simply removes hunter from the meta. RIP. They need to basically redesign the class now. Leeroy I have no problem with. He's objectively better than fireball due to superior synergy potential. Leeroy/shadow step or /windfury is still a good play.

[Frog Dragon]

Leeroy is not better than Fireball in a number of circumstances. Fireball makes for better removal (it doesn't leave the opponent whelps if you use it in a minion) and punches past taunt, which Leeroy cannot do. Of course, Leeroy can be buffed.

Both have their pros and cons.

[Hamste]

Yes. The buzzard Nerf simply removes hunter from the meta. RIP. They need to basically redesign the class now. Leeroy I have no problem with. He's objectively better than fireball due to superior synergy potential. Leeroy/shadow step or /windfury is still a good play.

Not the appropriate use of objective there, that is definitely subjective (but he was generally better than fireball). The very differences of a spell and a creature makes it impossible for a creature to be objectively better or worse unless the creature gives you the spell at mana cost of the spell-the mana cost of the creature or vice versa with a spell.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"Situationally better" is the phrase I'd use. Leeroy doesn't trigger Counterspell, but does trigger Vaporize and Snipe, etc., etc.

[Anxe]

He also triggers knife juggler. I've lost a game because of that.

[Joran]

What are everyone's least favorite classes to play against?

As someone who plays Zoo a lot, I hate Paladin with a passion that burns. Equality, Consecration, Aldor Peacekeeper. Ugh, they usually have a good number of counters for what I want to do.