[Dreamscarred Press] Psionics Augmented: Soulknife

[Forrestfire]

If anything, the one weapon enhancement that shouldn't be on the list is already there—Lucky. By RAW, each time you're form your mind blade, you're making a new one, which would allow you to drop it and quick draw another on every attack, giving you effective Advantage on every strike.

The list is also the thing that makes mind blades overall worse than someone with a normal weapon outside of very niche circumstances, so... It's probably something worth having a trait to expand that. It's not likely to break anything that isn't already broken.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I honestly don't see why the Soulknife used a whitelist anyways, except that there are a few specials that don't make sense (such as the Lord_Gareth mentioned Dancing) and as such aren't on the base list. I suggested the trait as a manner of future proofing - even if the special list is expanded to include everything that was released after Ultimate Psionics, there's going to be more made - and quite a few made by other developers that may be in use in a given game that the DSP devs don't (and shouldn't have to) worry about.

[Extra Anchovies]

How do Mind Daggers interact with Psychic Armory? Does it let us overcome that awful 20-foot range increment?

For that matter, how would Lucky and other X/day weapon properties interact with Psychic Armor? Would they get to use the Lucky property 1+Wis times per day?

Why does Deadly Imbuement need to exist? We already have the Reaper's Blade blade skill.

The list is also the thing that makes mind blades overall worse than someone with a normal weapon outside of very niche circumstances

...no? It's free, it scales to +9 or +10, can't be lost or destroyed, and you can change up the weapon enhancements from day to day. There's a case to be made for the Black Blade of a Bladebound Magus being more powerful (being able to change weapon enhancements several times per day is nice, but it can be lost or destroyed), but a Mind Blade is definitely better than a physical weapon.

I'm going to ask in the DSP FAQ about Lucky on a mind blade.

Ilorin makes a good point - a trait that lets you add properties to the list leads to wacky stuff like Dancing mind blades.

Also, @Ilorin: Soulknife uses a whitelist for the same reasons that a Magus or Warpriest do - balance.

Besides, why not just ask your DM if you can add a property to the list? If you aren't trying to break the game you should get it okayed, because your DM is already the sort to allow third-party content.

[Forrestfire]

Well, it's not free. A mind blade has a massive opportunity cost: levels. By having a mind blade, you're giving up the possibility of other class features. A psychic warrior with a greatsword is going to outfight a soulknife almost every time, just by the power his powers give. Initiators from Path of War will do it as well. In addition, it can't be hit with greater magic weapon to make it stronger (unless you keep the mind blade up at all times), and the items you're getting in exchange for a weapon's WBL cost probably don't make up for the cost of the levels you had to invest, unless you're using cross-class UMD and partially-charged wands to get ahead.

[Mehangel]

Just so others understand, when I said a trait to give a mundane weapon special, I was talking about weapon specials such as monk, brace, etc.

I suggested that a feat be used to gain magical weapon specials such as bane, ki focus, etc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't there a Blade Skills that already does this?

[Extra Anchovies]

Just so others understand, when I said a trait to give a mundane weapon special, I was talking about weapon specials such as monk, brace, etc.

There's already a blade skill for that; it's called Weapon Special.

I suggested that a feat be used to gain magical weapon specials such as bane, ki focus, etc.

That would be fair. Might need to have a "with DM approval" clause or some other way of cutting out the silly stuff like Dancing.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Also, @Ilorin: Soulknife uses a whitelist for the same reasons that a Magus or Warpriest do - balance.

Magus (10) and Warpriest (9-11) both have a very limited list made up almost entirely of pure offense specials. The Soulknife (46) one takes up nearly a whole column and is not limited in such a way.

Seriously, in terms of scale you're comparing a cereal cabinet with a kitchen - and then saying that the kitchen is limited because they don't want the cereal to taste good.

You'll be hard pressed to convince me that either of those are true - I'd wager magus and warpriest seem to be limited because their special abilities are built with a specific purpose: magus being offense and warpriest being to evoke being a warrior of a given type of god.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Soulknife is a class built entirely around the mind blade, hence the larger list. The fact that its list is longer doesn't change the fact that there are probably weapon properties the class should not have access to, or at least should not have easy access to. A feat is sufficient cost for adding a weapon property to the list.

[Mehangel]

There's already a blade skill for that; it's called Weapon Special.

Yeah, except that the weapon special blades kill only includes 3 choices out of the 15 currently on the pfsrd.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In that case the blade skill itself should be expanded, introducing a trait for that isn't the right approach IMP

[Ssalarn]

Yeah, except that the weapon special blades kill only includes 3 choices out of the 15 currently on the pfsrd.

You can also take a blade skill to turn your mind blade into any specific weapon, so you have access to pretty much any property you want +some.

[Ilorin Lorati]

A feat is sufficient cost for adding a weapon property to the list.

At which point most of your argument

The list of available weapon properties is there for a reason - because only certain abilities should be available to a mind blade.

is moot, and we're just talking about relative cost per power. I don't think spending a whole feat to get the ability to spend another, even more limited resource, is a fair trade.

[Extra Anchovies]

At which point most of your argument

In case you hadn't noticed, I have since clarified and refined my point. In fact, I did so in one of the posts you quoted, which you would have noticed if you had read any part of my post except the last sentence.

The Soulknife is a class built entirely around the mind blade, hence the larger list. The fact that its list is longer doesn't change the fact that there are probably weapon properties the class should not have access to, or at least should not have easy access to. A feat is sufficient cost for adding a weapon property to the list.

[PsyBomb]

Here's the thing, I don't see dancing as being an illogical or overpowered choice, other than for Deadly Fist for obvious reasons. I'd be all in favor of abolishing the whitelist entirely, if certain ground rules are in place (like the Mind Blade always counting as the same weapon no matter how many times it is formed).

[Ilorin Lorati]

I stand by my point.

[Forrestfire]

Yeah. As fun as the exploit with Lucky is, the sane ruling would be to get rid of that interaction entirely (and then go back to buffing the class, because it really needs the help).

[Mehangel]

You can also take a blade skill to turn your mind blade into any specific weapon, so you have access to pretty much any property you want +some.

True, and this is actually what I have been doing most of the time, but it doesn't make possible some combinations, of which aren't even particularly powerful (nonlethal, trip, monk) or (performing, disarm, monk)

[Ilorin Lorati]

In case you hadn't noticed, I have since clarified and refined my point. In fact, I did so in one of the posts you quoted, which you would have noticed if you had read any part of my post except the last sentence.

I stand by my point. Your argument visibly changed, even if on your end it's a clarification. We essentially disagree on the power:cost ratio, and I also disagree that traits are any easier to come by than feats - especially with the category limitation on them.

[Extra Anchovies]

I stand by my point. Your argument visibly changed, even if on your end it's a clarification.

Yeah, it did. Sometimes I change my mind about stuff. I hope that's not a problem, because it shouldn't be.

Regardless, we have more important things to discuss, like the Psionics Augmented: Soulknife playtest

We essentially disagree on the power:cost ratio,

Indeed. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, because there are no equivalent abilities to compare to. The closest thing is the Gnome Magus FCB, but that isn't adding to the whitelist from the entire set; it's adding to the whitelist from another whitelist.

and I also disagree that traits are any easier to come by than feats - especially with the category limitation on them.

Traits are much easier to come by than feats, because everybody gets two of them for free and you can get two more traits for every one feat you give up. So traits are twice as easy to acquire as a single feat is (slightly more than that, because of the free ones at 1st level), albeit in a sort of clunky way.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Traits are much easier to come by than feats

Except you can only have a single trait in a given category, and since presumably this would be going into the Psionic category it would be competing with Psychoportive Talent and Psionic Knack.

[Extra Anchovies]

Except you can only have a single trait in a given category, and since presumably this would be going into the Psionic category it would be competing with Psychoportive Talent and Psionic Knack.

Soulknifes don't even have a manifester level for Psionic Knack to increase, and there are much better things to spend your immediate/swift actions and/or psionic focus on than Psychoportive Talent.

[Kaidinah]

Soulknifes don't even have a manifester level for Psionic Knack to increase, and there are much better things to spend your immediate/swift actions and/or psionic focus on than Psychoportive Talent.

Psonic Knack would be for multiclassing. Just like the trait for +2 mind blade levels.

[ErrantX]

Brutality Blade and Psychic Armory have been updated with responses today. Brutality Blade especially is all new.

Also, let me derail this current conversation. I cannot change the original soulknife or any of the blade skills there-in. I can only add, not change. I don't have that luxury, so theorizing is about as far as this goes.

-X

[Ilorin Lorati]

Soulknifes don't even have a manifester level for Psionic Knack to increase, and there are much better things to spend your immediate/swift actions and/or psionic focus on than Psychoportive Talent.

Gifted Blade is probably the single most common archetype for a single-classed Soulknife, and while I'll agree that in most situations Psychoportive Talent isn't a game changer, you'll be hard pressed to find a better trait when you're using it. Seriously, it's a 5-foot step that you can take off-turn and doesn't prevent further movement.

• Oh, a caster is 5 feet away trying to shove a spell down your throat? NOPE.
• An enemy just confirmed a x4 crit on their attack? HAHANO.
• You can't afford to run through an enemy's reach for whatever reason? Cool beans.
• You're just short of the bad guy? No problem!

[Kaidinah]

Brutality Blade and Psychic Armory have been updated with responses today. Brutality Blade especially is all new.

Also, let me derail this current conversation. I cannot change the original soulknife or any of the blade skills there-in. I can only add, not change. I don't have that luxury, so theorizing is about as far as this goes.

-X

I am still not sure about the Brutality Blade. Rage Surge is an enhancement bonus and has no duration listed. Psychic Enervation is listed multiple class features before Rage Surge, but as far as I can tell Rage Surge is the only way to activate Psychic Enervation. Also, should their Psychic Enervation class feature get wording to count their levels as wilder levels for the purposes of enervation? Otherwise they cannot take Evervation Fortitude. At this point, I think the enhancement bonuses should be turned to morale bonuses, and the numbers should be decreased.

Also, I wanted to point out the Cutthroat Soulknife archetype trades out Psychic Strike for Sneak Attack, and you might want to consider it for the proposed Black-Brother prestige class.

[Ssalarn]

True, and this is actually what I have been doing most of the time, but it doesn't make possible some combinations, of which aren't even particularly powerful (nonlethal, trip, monk) or (performing, disarm, monk)

Seems like the real issue then is access to the performing or monk qualities, yes? Basically every other combination is possible. Performing is an alternate subsystem ability, so I think it's primarily left out because it won't even be used in many (I daresay most) campaigns, and monk is only relevant on a multiclass character who wants to use Flurry with a two-handed weapon. They may not be supported, but do they need to be? Soulknives already have distinct WBL advantages, so they can more readily use the Bribe option to affect performance checks, and he already has options like Twin Strike, Dual Imbue, and Full Enhancement to help with TWF, as well as the Flurry of Fists line of options.

[ErrantX]

I am still not sure about the Brutality Blade. Rage Surge is an enhancement bonus and has no duration listed. Psychic Enervation is listed multiple class features before Rage Surge, but as far as I can tell Rage Surge is the only way to activate Psychic Enervation. Also, should their Psychic Enervation class feature get wording to count their levels as wilder levels for the purposes of enervation? Otherwise they cannot take Evervation Fortitude. At this point, I think the enhancement bonuses should be turned to morale bonuses, and the numbers should be decreased.

Also, I wanted to point out the Cutthroat Soulknife archetype trades out Psychic Strike for Sneak Attack, and you might want to consider it for the proposed Black-Brother prestige class.

Fixed enhancement bonus to morale bonus like Barbarian, fixed the info in raging surge to work with enervation and the text for enervation for use with rage blade. Added wording to count as wilder's enervation that should allow for enervation feats.

Is the enhancement bonus buffs to Str and Con the deal breaker? If so I'm happy to reduce them.

-X

[Chimmon]

The Rageblade's enervation and potential downsides are now much nicer. :)

It's sad so see their enhancement progress reduced, especially since having a super-powerful weapon via Manifest Rage Blade was kinda their previous "thing". Mechanically, the Raging Surge makes up for this, and makes them more like a Barbarian. Would it open up to big of a can of worms to let them take a rage power as a bladeskill? I don't know if there are any potentially broken interactions there.

I'm confused about their Raging Surge. It says they can invoke it when manifesting a rage blade, and is maintained while the blade is manifested. It then says it lasts for 1 round. I'm guessing this is a typo from copying text from the wilder.

The Psychic Armory loss access to Mind Daggers, the best throwing form. :(

Until Telekinetic Bolt came along, which they can still get! :)

Increased Range further removes the need for that (yay!), but it's nice to have options.

Panoply Eruption is a thing now!!

[Extra Anchovies]

Again: Why is the Psychic Armory locked into Two-Handed Throw at 2nd level? It's an awful pick for that archetype.

Psychic Armory + Telekinetic Bolt lets us have a bunch of floating guns. There's some anime character who does that (I've seen them referenced on this forum multiple times before), but I forget who. Telekinetic Bolt also happens to be a Blade Skill tax for the Psychic Armor, because they can't get Mind Daggers.

Can a Psychic Armory with Telekinetic Bolt create a mix of ranged and melee weapons?

Thank you for giving us the Increased Range Armory Tactic. I'm glad that my feedback on Panoply Drive and Swirling Panoply was helpful.

Also, Panoply Eruption is really cool. Taking that one for sure when I get a chance to try this archetype out.