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Thread: You do WHAT!!!!

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default You do WHAT!!!!

    OK so here's the skinny, playgrounders. I just recently ran a jailbreak in my last session. Everything seemed to be going just peachy. The guy in jail was working his way out, and the extraction team on the outside had set up a fairly competent escape plan. They were going to start a bar brawl to attract the guard then use disguise self to imitate a guard and bring the 'drunk' in to cool his heels in the drunk tank. Meanwhile on the other end of town they would set fire to a vacant warehouse to draw the remaining guards away from the jailhouse. Everything was worked out and the plan was initiated. . . this is where everything starts to escalate quickly. The 'Drunk' starting the brawl plays his part to perfection, attracting the tavern bullyboy's attention and getting a call to the guard put in. Then the bullyboy hits him with his club, and instead of grappling/fisticuffs (nonlethal stuff) he draws his HUGE freaking hammer and attacks the bullyboy (a commoner NPC), he of course crits, and rolls a 9 on his d10 damage, plus his 1.5STR and triples it (essentially liquidating this poor guy). . . they manage to salvage the plan and complete the jailbreak.

    My question is this. . . the character in question is a Lawful Good alignment, and I know that one decision does not an alignment break (typically), but I feel like this is an egregious turn from Lawful Good to at least Neutral Good maybe? What say you guys? Have any of you had this kind of issue in a game (PC/DM). He seems genuinely upset about his choice after the fact (I think he just wanted to nudge the guy a bit, but forgot to declare nonlethal damage). The jailbreak is not really an issue even with the lawful (corrupt politics/no trials/unjust treatment and whatnot), but the murder of a random NPC who is just protecting his bar from drunks. . . Should I let him slide and retcon the lethal to nonlethal? Should I leave his alignment or switch it and let him work to restore it? He wants to go back into town to offer reperations to the guys family, but the rest of the party is going to try and remind him that HE is a justly wanted fugitive in that town and he may want to rethink his apology.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    The PC was making a ruccuss by being drunk.
    The bouncer responded with deadly force and tried to murder the PC
    The PC defended himself

    In real life, bouncers aren't allowed to murder drunk patrons that are unruly.

    The remorse the PC has should be about how things worked out. And that their plan ended up killing someone because the bounced overreacted to a non-threat with deadly force

    Self defense is always vindicated in my book.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Personally, slaying an innocent in the course of committing a crime sounds like an automatic shift in alignment for both good/evil and law/chaos, at least until he receives an Atonement from a cleric of his deity of choice or makes a huge sacrifice to make reparations.

    If he unintentionally caused a death it wouldn't be so bad, but he drew a lethal weapon and outright murdered an innocent. that's pretty cut and dried.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrrin View Post
    Personally, slaying an innocent in the course of committing a crime sounds like an automatic shift in alignment for both good/evil and law/chaos, at least until he receives an Atonement from a cleric of his deity of choice or makes a huge sacrifice to make reparations.

    If he unintentionally caused a death it wouldn't be so bad, but he drew a lethal weapon and outright murdered an innocent. that's pretty cut and dried.
    The way things worked out is unfortunate. However the NPC was the one that made the choice to escalate things by using deadly force.

    Defending yourself doesn't make you evil.
    Freeing an ally from jail doesn't make you evil, probably unlawful but not evil

    Let's look at this from a different angle.
    Real life

    I decide I want to crash a party by causing a riot and getting cops there to crash it.

    I go Into a sports bar during a championship game and say that one team sucks, coach isa hack, player is a fraud, whatever.

    Place gets loud and a brawl ensues. One guy decides to pull a gun and start shooting at me. I defend myself by killing him. Self defense. That prick turned a non-lethal situation into a potential massacre by being a moron and Introducing a weapon to the mix.
    Last edited by bjoern; 2014-09-03 at 05:42 PM.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Considering how bad he feels about it, I probably wouldn't penalize him this time. But if it starts becoming a pattern, it will definitely shift his alignment towards Neutral. Keep an eye on his behavior going forward.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    The way things worked out is unfortunate. However the NPC was the one that made the choice to escalate things by using deadly force.

    Defending yourself doesn't make you evil.
    Freeing an ally from jail doesn't make you evil, probably unlawful but not evil
    Did the NPC respond with lethal force? I may have missed that. If the NPC was just doing his job and using non-lethal force of his own, it's murder. If not, you are right, self defense. a crappy thing to do sure, but not alignment shifting. Could be the start of a pattern though.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrrin View Post
    Did the NPC respond with lethal force? I may have missed that. If the NPC was just doing his job and using non-lethal force of his own, it's murder. If not, you are right, self defense. a crappy thing to do sure, but not alignment shifting. Could be the start of a pattern though.
    Club is about as benign as lethal force goes but so is a .38 special. Its enough.

    What the player should take away from this is that sometimes things go sideways and can get ugly. Perhaps the character is hesitant to use such a plan next time.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    I'd say change his alignment. I mean, the guy starts a brawl in a tavern as a distraction, then straight up murders the guy that was just doing his job. I'm surprised he's not in jail himself.
    Last edited by TeslaJr; 2014-09-03 at 05:47 PM.

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    Deadline's Avatar

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrrin View Post
    Did the NPC respond with lethal force? I may have missed that.
    The NPC attacked with a club. There was no mention of whether or not he was taking the -4 attack penalty to inflict non-lethal damage with it, so it's unclear. The OP will have to clarify.

    That said, it just sounds like the player didn't realize he could kill the NPC. I'd simply retcon it to non-lethal, and clarify for the PC that in the future, he needs to specify if he's trying to knock the guy out (deal non-lethal), or kill him.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    I think a shift from Good is debatable, and if I'm not sure about it I tend to err in favour of the player.

    I don't understand how a Lawful character would even be in this scenario though.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    I'd say change his alignment. I mean, the guy starts a brawl in a tavern as a distraction, then straight up murders the guy that was just doing his job. I'm surprised he's not in jail himself.
    I doubt the NPCs job was to slay drunk patrons that are unruly. Wouldn't have many customers left before too long.

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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    I guess instead of saying "Well, you didn't declare that you were doing nonlethal damage, so he's dead now," the thing to do would be to gently confirm "...And you're going for lethal damage here?"

    You know the PC probably isn't intending to murder the guy, and a major characterization faux pas like that shouldn't happen by accident, so if you see it coming, head it off to make sure the player understands what their character is doing. Part of the DM's responsibility is helping the players visualize the scene accurately and this sort of thing is part of that. An alignment shift is a consequence of an act of will, not a procedural error.

    So go easy on the player. It was mostly your fault.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post

    I don't understand how a Lawful character would even be in this scenario though.
    Yeah, that part is pretty much a slam dunk case. Maybe CG is more the characters style.

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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Assuming the player (and thus the character) did not intend for nor know that his counter-offensive would be fatal, or that he felt in genuine danger of his life and in need to respond with lethal force to save himself, I would not change his alignment based on this. I would, however, make sure to remind him in future situations that the last time he behaved such-and-such a way, somebody wound up dead at his hands, and watch carefully the choices he makes based on that.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    I doubt the NPCs job was to slay drunk patrons that are unruly. Wouldn't have many customers left before too long.
    Look at it like this; it's basically the same as having a police officer pull a baton on you because you're starting a brawl (that could turn deadly and/or spill out into the streets), and you pull a gun and drop him with three in his core.
    Last edited by TeslaJr; 2014-09-03 at 06:04 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    Look at it like this; it's basically the same as having a police officer pull a baton on you because you're starting a brawl (that could turn deadly and/or spill out into the streets), and you pull a gun and drop him with three in his core.
    A baton and a gun are not on the same level of lethality.

    A club and a hammer are on the same level.

    Plus the guy wasn't a cop, he was just some guy that smashed my skull with a baseball bat. I was lucky enough to not be killed so I'm going to protect myself the best I can because the next hit might kill me.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    A baton and a gun are not on the same level of lethality.

    A club and a hammer are on the same level.

    Plus the guy wasn't a cop, he was just some guy that smashed my skull with a baseball bat. I was lucky enough to not be killed so I'm going to protect myself the best I can because the next hit might kill me.
    The gun was a little hyperbolic, but a wooden club isn't on the same level as a metal hammer, especially considering this is DnD and that hammer is most likely magic. Close, but not quite. Besides, it's irrelevant because a Lawful Good character wouldn't liquefy a commoner. The point is the situation quickly escalated and someone got killed, and the murderer (self defense or not) needs to face punishment.
    Last edited by TeslaJr; 2014-09-03 at 06:15 PM.

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    Spore's Avatar

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    I did this once with my LG cleric of Moradin. I jumped a thief stealing from a warehouse and killed him with my battle hammer. Needless to say I had to quest for atonement. If the character is truly sorry about the case then he stays good. If not then he shifts to neutral. The law/chaos axis on the other hand should not be touched (for now) but definitely kept in mind.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    A wooden club isn't on the same level as a metal hammer, especially considering this is DnD and that hammer is most likely magic. Close, but not quite. Besides, it's irrelevant because a Lawful Good character wouldn't liquefy a commoner. The point is the situation quickly escalated and someone got killed, and the murderer (self defense or not) needs to face punishment.
    A club does an average of 3.5 damage
    The 1d10 hammer does an average 5.5 hammer

    That's a difference of 2 damage.

    That's less damage than the difference between calibres of handguns.


    Lawful act--no. A lawful character would never allow himself to be in that situation (blatantly breaking the law with the jailbreak)

    Evil--no
    He murdered no one.

    If I cuss a guy out and he shoots me then I shoot him I didn't murder him.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Except in this case you didn't cuss him out, you started a brawl.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    Except in this case you didn't cuss him out, you started a brawl.
    I started it with non lethal damage.

    He tried to end it with death.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    I started it with non lethal damage.

    He tried to end it with death.
    Ah! But you don't know the guy was trying to kill you!

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    Ah! But you don't know the guy was trying to kill you!
    I got smashed in the face with a bat. That will kill you pretty easy. Much more lethal than than some guys wresting around on the floor.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: You do WHAT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    The gun was a little hyperbolic, but a wooden club isn't on the same level as a metal hammer, especially considering this is DnD and that hammer is most likely magic. Close, but not quite. Besides, it's irrelevant because a Lawful Good character wouldn't liquefy a commoner. The point is the situation quickly escalated and someone got killed, and the murderer (self defense or not) needs to face punishment.
    Look at it like this: if the bouncer had attacked your average person with his 1d6 damage club, and the bouncer had at least 12 strength (hey, he's a bouncer), then the average person (Commoner 1, AC 10, 2hp) would be lying on the ground bleeding to death.

    If he had taken the -4 penalty to do nonlethal, or attacked with a sap or his fists or something? Yeah, he'd just knock the guy out for a few hours. Using a club like he was apparently doing? The guy he hit is probably going to die within a minute without direct medical care.

    The only reason his actions were justifiable was because he was attacking a PC and thus probably wouldn't kill them in one hit (I say probably, since a critical hit would still do an average of 9 damage).

    This wasn't exactly a case of disproportionate response.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    I got smashed in the face with a bat. That will kill you pretty easy. Much more lethal than than some guys wresting around on the floor.
    Not in DnD; You can take multiple hits to the face with a warhammer and be fine (sorta). A PC would have no reason to fear a commoner killing them, unless the PC was very low level.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    Look at it like this: if the bouncer had attacked your average person with his 1d6 damage club, and the bouncer had at least 12 strength (hey, he's a bouncer), then the average person (Commoner 1, AC 10, 2hp) would be lying on the ground bleeding to death.

    If he had taken the -4 penalty to do nonlethal, or attacked with a sap or his fists or something? Yeah, he'd just knock the guy out for a few hours. Using a club like he was apparently doing? The guy he hit is probably going to die within a minute without direct medical care.

    The only reason his actions were justifiable was because he was attacking a PC and thus probably wouldn't kill them in one hit (I say probably, since a critical hit would still do an average of 9 damage).

    This wasn't exactly a case of disproportionate response.
    In DnD, anything involving a PC is a disproportionate response. And the difference between your average commoner in a bar and a PC in a bar is pretty obvious (unless the PC was disguised or something), so it's not like the bouncer got confused. He used the right amount of force necessary to deal with someone as dangerous as an adventurer.
    Last edited by TeslaJr; 2014-09-03 at 06:33 PM.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    Look at it like this: if the bouncer had attacked your average person with his 1d6 damage club, and the bouncer had at least 12 strength (hey, he's a bouncer), then the average person (Commoner 1, AC 10, 2hp) would be lying on the ground bleeding to death.

    If he had taken the -4 penalty to do nonlethal, or attacked with a sap or his fists or something? Yeah, he'd just knock the guy out for a few hours. Using a club like he was apparently doing? The guy he hit is probably going to die within a minute without direct medical care.

    The only reason his actions were justifiable was because he was attacking a PC and thus probably wouldn't kill them in one hit (I say probably, since a critical hit would still do an average of 9 damage).

    This wasn't exactly a case of disproportionate response.
    This

    The bouncer had every intention of killing the PC.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    This

    The bouncer had every intention of killing the PC.
    Let's ask the DM. Hey, Thuphinlok; What were the guard's intentions when he attacked the PC?

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeslaJr View Post
    Let's ask the DM. Hey, Thuphinlok; What were the guard's intentions when he attacked the PC?
    Yeah that would be important info. However,would the PC be able to tell the ddifference? All he knows is that some dude is smashing him with a club.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    Yeah that would be important info. However,would the PC be able to tell the ddifference? All he knows is that some dude is smashing him with a club.
    I'd say he would; It'd be the difference from smashing you in the head and clubbing you in the thigh or core. Or instead of using full force you grab the club in a way to reduce the force (think bunting instead of trying to hit a home run).
    Last edited by TeslaJr; 2014-09-03 at 06:42 PM.

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