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2014-09-03, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
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Buffed archers or skinny archers?
How do you guys describe the appearance of archers to your players?
Strong and muscular or skinny and agile?
They need some muscle to pull that long bow string. But they also need to be fast to fire as many arrows as they can.Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2014-09-03 at 07:51 PM.
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2014-09-03, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I just say they're elves. *shrug*
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2014-09-03, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
"Wiry" is a good word. It implies strength, but slenderness.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2014-09-03, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I usually describe my archers as carrying a bow and quiver, and possibly wearing some kind of armor/uniform.
It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.
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2014-09-03, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I like to think of them as big guys with long arms, chosen for draw-strength and distance.
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2014-09-03, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Sweden
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Depends on the individual archer. An ogre archer is going to be beefier than an elven archer.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2014-09-04, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Location
- A Cabin in the Woods
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Honestly, it depends on the archer. I mean, the ripcord-muscle style archer is classic because that's what makes sense for someone who's equipped to use a bow. Then you look at Stephen Amell on Arrow (CW series based off of DC's Green Arrow) and the dude is ripped to no end but it still works with the character. Honestly it depends on the build. If it's a character that relies on precision to get the job done the skinnier and more dexterous look might be better off, if they rely more on the force of the bow and being able to handle themselves up close too then a more "buffed" archer may be more appropriate.
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2014-09-04, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
It depends on the archer in question. The real commonality is bow use, along with the muscles needed for that. Sometimes that means a thin, wiry type. Sometimes it's a big buff guy. Sometimes it's an overweight person who doesn't even look particularly muscular until they do something and demonstrate that it's not just fat they're hauling around. Sometimes it's not someone who looks strong at all, as you're not seeing the physique under the clothing. Etc. I do think that a given archer is more likely to be wiry, if any particular description is given, but there's variation.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-09-04, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I don't consider weapon of choice as a factor in determining a character's physical appearance. Rather, both of those are things that I consider separate expressions of the character's concept and personality.
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2014-09-04, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
- Location
- Italy
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I would describe them as having an arm that is more muscular than the other. And really callous fingers and wrists.
Anyway, the image of the nimble archer is just somethign popularized by Tolkien's elves, in reality to be an archer you had to be very strong but as far as speed and agility was concerned you could have been lame and it wouldn't have made a difference. You won't be moving around that much anyway. As long as you can pull the bow string and make the arrow go where you want it to go, you're good. At most, it's hand-eye coordination that was important.
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2014-09-04, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
One arm would be much more muscular than the other (the drawing arm) but I'm not sure if it would be readily noticeable. (It can be seen on their bones by a trained person.) Arms would generally be stronger than legs, too.
Incidentally, mounted knights would typically have much stronger arms than legs, while foot soldiers are strong all over.
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2014-09-04, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
The "weak, but agile archer" cliché is really annoying. The proper primary stats for an archer on a battlefield should be strength and constitution, not dexterity. In fact, even wisdom would be a more appropriate stat than dexterity. Also, an above-average strength should be a prerequisite for using anything but a basic hunting bow. This is reflected poorly by many game systems.
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2014-09-04, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Cippa's River Meadow
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Depending on the archer's form and the type of bow though. An overweight person may have issues unless they have a chest guard to hold their flesh out of the path of their bowstring, whereas a woman may be perfectly fine without a chestguard as due to the way she she shoots, her bosom doesn't get in the way.
While a minimum physical ability is required, it's not until you start getting into the big draw weight bows (>100lb) that archers would be more and more physically powerful. For anything up to about 75lbs, thin and wiry would be perfectly acceptable.
While the spine, drawing arm and its shoulder joint would be slightly overdeveloped, it wouldn't be overtly visible (the Mary Rose had a number of skeletons with these adaptations and since there were the remains of bows nearby, it was assumed they were archers). The holding arm would also be fairly strong though - while the drawing arm is pulling the string back, the other arm is still holding the bow in place.
However the main way to spot a high draw weight archer is the size of their back as that's where the strength to draw comes from. Fingers possibly, but that's why archers have tabs and I'm not seeing why the wrist would be affected.
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2014-09-04, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Hackmaster, my friend, Hackmaster.
Dex is HELLA useful to an archer, since it adds to Attack and Defense rolls, but you need a minimum strength to handle any weapon. But Int and Wisdom also add to Attack and Defense (respectively), and the archery rules are fun and pretty fast.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2014-09-04, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Hackmaster, my friend, Hackmaster.
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2014-09-04, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
From what I understand about muscle development, even lots of archery practice doesn't get you bulgy arms or chests. Probably more well shaped than flabby, but invisible under a shirt.
I believe in fact strength doesn't lead to muscles growing in size at all. If you want big muscles, you have to do other work on them than increasing strength.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2014-09-04, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
- Location
- On Paper
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Googling up some images of olympic archers, they seem to be in good shape but they're hardly bulky.
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2014-09-04, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
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2014-09-04, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
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2014-09-04, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
@BRC: I'd rather rather google up some marines. An archer in the context of role playing games is more often than not some type of soldier or ranger. "Shooting a bow at orcs" isn't a nine to five job, just as "shooting a rifle at insurgents" isn't nine to five job - the lion's share of soldiering / adventuring will be comprised marching while carrying heavy equipment, setting up camp, keeping watch etc.
@cobaltstarfire: I know, but it isn't really hard to hold a bow of appropriate pull - good depth perception, patience and the ability to correct your aim during a sequence of shots are more important in my experience.Last edited by Berenger; 2014-09-04 at 12:15 PM.
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2014-09-04, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Sure, but then you also have things like city guards, retired military living in a city, so on and so forth. Which makes it entirely possible for an archer who shows up to be an overweight ex-military official with a limp, who's still a crack shot and poses a very, very nasty surprise for anyone taking an action against them who assumed they were just some soft, injured civilian.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-09-04, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Location
- GI Joe Headquarters
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Weren’t British archers supposed to be big brawny guys?
Like 6’4” or better and well fed (beefy, not fat or scrawny).
That to me suggests strength.
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2014-09-04, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
- Location
- On Paper
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Wikipedia says the estimated draw weights of english longbows as being anywhere between 80 and 200 pounds, with a modern longbow's draw weight at around 60. I'm not sure how those numbers work out, but It sounds like in order to use that effectively in combat you would need to be pretty strong.
Last edited by BRC; 2014-09-04 at 02:43 PM.
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2014-09-04, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Indeed. Look at real life athletes and people doing hard, physical labour for a living. They range from wiry, not very big but with steely limbs, to large, somewhat shapeless guys who might be mistaken for fat at a first glance. But sculpted, Schwarzenegger-like physiques are very rare. They are a result of bodybuilding, which is very different from strength- and endurance-building exercise.
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2014-09-04, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
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2014-09-04, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Cippa's River Meadow
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Olympic archery rules cap the draw weight at 48lbs for men and 37lbs for women, so there's very little reason for them to train at drawing a heavier weight than that.
Looking up the laws for bowhunting in the US, the minimum weight depends on what you're hunting and what state you're in, but it says a minimum of 30-40lbs for deer.
Bear in mind that target archery is a very different technique to hunting and for combat. The main one is that with combat, you don't hold the draw unlike in target and hunting, so while it is a heavier weight to pull, you don't hold it at maximum draw (the most tiring part) for long.
The wiki article is somewhat misleading as a bow's draw weight is whatever the bow is made to, even with modern self bows (bows carved out of a single piece of wood, typically a longbow). The exact draw weight of an English warbow during Medieval times is under heavy debate but the English Warbow Society have records of 170lbs so the more ridiculous weights are possible (example).
The Ming dynasty also had very heavy draw weight bows, although they were used for military examinations and there's minimal evidence that these bows were actually used in combat.Last edited by Brother Oni; 2014-09-04 at 06:11 PM. Reason: I forgot a word
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2014-09-04, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Location
- not found
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
If you take one of the middle weight classes in most sports (of the top of my head come weightlifting, boxing and wrestling) you'll see a wide variety of physiques amongst people of the same mass, doing the same stuff. So you could probably take from that to have your archer look however you feel like, or start some ridiculous debate over what stats contribute to looking sexy... I mean, looking like someone who could do arrow stuff.
Also: arms typically stronger than legs and mounted knights having much stronger arms than legs... Could you be more precise in your meaning, I don't want to misinterpret you or owt, but that doesn't make much sense to me.Last edited by JustSomeGuy; 2014-09-04 at 05:20 PM.
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2014-09-04, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Imagination Land
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
Just look at Jeremy Renner AKA Hawkeye in The Avengers. He's relatively thin and compact, but dense and muscular.
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2014-09-04, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- Tharggy, on Tellene
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
As a guy who shoots bow i can tell you a medieval archer would be fairly developed. I mean i only pull 45-50 pounds they were pulling at minimum 60 pounds all the way up to 120 or more. As has been pointed out before this would be most prominent in the back muscles, and i honestly think that the new Hawkeye is a great example of what an archer would look like, or at the very least your average ranger
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2014-09-04, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Cippa's River Meadow
- Gender
Re: Buffed archers or skinny archers?
I'd think 60lbs for a longbow would be a bit light (depending on the draw length), as during the Tudor era, the minimum target distance for anybody over 19 was 220 yards by law.
How well that law was enforced is unclear, but it gives an idea as to the expected standard.