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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Optimal favored soul spell list

    Kudos to ken-do-nim for an insightful thread on sorcerer spell lists. Along similar lines, what about an optimal spell list for favored souls?

    Same rules as the sorcerer spell list thread:
    1. We'll use favored soul level 20. No prestige classes.
    2. No advance knowledge of the gaming group the favored soul will be used in.

    Spells known, for ease of reference:
    Level 0) 9 spells
    Level 1) 6 spells
    Level 2) 6 spells
    Level 3) 6 spells
    Level 4) 6 spells
    Level 5) 6 spells
    Level 6) 6 spells
    Level 7) 6 spells
    Level 8) 5 spells
    Level 9) 4 spells

    Should be interesting to see the change in focus from sorcerer; seems like the FS would be especially suited for the role played by a self-buffing sorcerer.

    *********************

    Here's what we have so far (I'll keep these on the top post for readers' convenience):

    Level 0) 9 spells
    Level 1) 1 spells + divine favor, shield of faith, resurgence, sign, entropic shield
    Level 2) 1 spells + spiritual weapon, brambles(if you use wooden weapon), ghost touch armor, aid, divine protection
    Level 3) 1 spell + ghost touch weapon, mass resist energy, flame of faith, mass lesser vigor, magic circle vs. [evil]
    Level 4) divine power, freedom of movement, recitation, [enervation,] blessing of the righteous, greater magic weapon
    Level 5) 1 spell + righteous might, spell resistance, disrupting weapon, flamestrike, true seeing
    Level 6) heal, find the path, greater anyspell, greater dispel magic, symbol of persuasion, superior resistance
    Level 7) 3 spells + summon monster VII, [lesser miracle,] holy word
    Level 8) 3 spells + spell immunity, holy aura
    Level 9) 1 spell + energy drain, miracle, implosion

    Added some more input based on comments below. Thoughts on particularly nifty combos, especially ways in which the FS and the mage can collaborate to make their spells more effective? (I mean, other than the obvious "FS buffs the mage, mage casts with bonus to relevant ability scores etc.")
    Last edited by Ionari; 2007-03-12 at 08:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    I guess I'll quickly jump in here. Maybe instead of one person presenting a list of all the spells, we can knock them off a little at a time. For instance:

    Level 0) 9 spells
    Level 1) 4 spells + divine favor, shield of faith
    Level 2) 5 spells + spiritual hammer
    Level 3) 6 spells
    Level 4) 4 spells + divine power, freedom of movement
    Level 5) 5 spells + righteous might
    Level 6) 4 spells + heal, find the path
    Level 7) 6 spells
    Level 8) 5 spells
    Level 9) 4 spells

    I think those would make anybody's list. Okay, somebody else can fill in more of the obvious ones.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    1) resurgence
    2) brambles(if you use wooden weapon),ghost touch armor(handy if there are incorporeal enemies since your touch ac will probably be low),aid
    3)ghost touch weapon, protection from energy, flame of faith,greater magic weapon
    4)recitation, enervation, blessing of the righteous
    5)spell resistance, disrupting weapon
    6)
    7)
    8)
    9)energy drain, miracle

    My knowledge on higher level spells is limited. These com to my mind though there may be better spells
    Last edited by marjan; 2007-03-09 at 08:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    It depends on your FS concept a lot of nice spells already mentioned but here are a few more spells worth considering for most builds particularly leveling up:

    Level 1 Lesser Vigor 1 at lower levels (10 rds + 1 rd level max 15) so it is "usually" better than cure light for less than a 2 minute delay barring other things like special class abilities, feats and PRCs. A typical level 1 cure light wand is good for an average of 5.5 hit points a charge (sometimes it's 2 HP and sometimes it's 9 HP) so generally a Level 1 Wand of Lesser Vigor 1 is better than a comparable wand of cure light wounds with average healing since it heals twice the hit points (11 HP) in under 2 minutes.

    ***Remember a Level One Pearl of Power only costs 1,000 GP market compared to a wand of cure light or lesser vigor 1 for 750 GP and could be crafted by someone in the group for 500 GP with Craft Wonderous Items so over time the pearls of power will pay for themselves plus they can be shared among party spellcasters for more utility and versaitily.

    Level 1 Sign (10 min a level until discharged) +4 Init for initial round of combat going first for primary damage dealers or party battle field controllers or party incapacitators can be key to surviving encounters.

    Level 3 Any Spell for Spell Versatility and Expanding Spell casting options with Level 1 and 2 Arcane and Divine Spells with a spell book. It just gives the FS a lot more spell choice options to Known Spells by having Useful nice to have but less utilized Spells available in a short time frame increasing FS versatility IMO.

    Level 3 Vigor Mass Lesser 10 rounds + 1 round a level max 25 rounds (50 HP if extended) nice because it's free and can save group magical items for emergencies if utilized after combat in most encounters to restore groups to full or near full hit points as "most" enounters experience a time interval between them.

    It's nice to blast things occassionally so I like Flame Strike with half the divine damage.

    Level 6 Any Spell Greater Level 1 to 5 Arcane and Divine Spells with a spell book (Adept Heal is an option, LPA, Imbue with Spell Ability, Sending, Neutrailize Poison, Restoration, Raise Dead, Plane Shift, Commune, Scrying, Teleport) as with the lesser version it just gives the FS a lot more spell choice options and versatility IMO.

    SM 7 - 9, SM7 will get you one movanic deva (SM 8 & 9 (FF) should get you more) who have bunches of spell like abilities: Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Plane Shift, Ehteral Jaunt, Continual Flame, Aid, Create Food and Water, Discern Lies, Prot from Arrow, Bless Weapon, Cure Serious, Neutralize Poison, Commune, Raise Dead and others All One or more times a day plus all the other things you can summon for various purposes.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-03-12 at 05:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionari View Post
    Here's what we have so far (I'll keep these on the top post for readers' convenience):

    Level 0) 9 spells
    Level 1) 3 spells + divine favor, shield of faith, resurgence
    Level 2) 2 spells + spiritual hammer, brambles(if you use wooden weapon), ghost touch armor, aid
    Level 3) 2 spells + ghost touch weapon, protection from energy, flame of faith, greater magic weapon
    Level 4) 1 spell + divine power, freedom of movement, recitation, enervation, blessing of the righteous
    Level 5) 3 spells + righteous might, spell resistance, disrupting weapon
    Level 6) 4 spells + heal, find the path
    Level 7) 6 spells
    Level 8) 5 spells
    Level 9) 2 spells + energy drain, miracle

    Interesting input - here are some additional suggestions of my own: buffs like bull's strength, save/sucks like the symbol series, and old defensive standbys like dispel magic and magic circle against X. Thumbs up/down?
    By 20th level, most characters have items which give them all the enhancement bonus they need to their ability scores, so I would tend to say no to buffs like bull strength. The mass versions would be more useful, because then you could put them on your summoned monsters, but 6th level spell slots I think will prove to be too precious for that.

    Yes, definitely add in greater dispel magic for 6th. We have to decide between protection from evil at 1st or the magic circle against kinds. I'm not as familiar with the symbol spells.

    Also, at level 4 enervation is listed. Didn't think that was on the cleric list.

    I second mass lesser vigor at 3rd level.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Also at level 3, swap out protection from energy for mass resist energy.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Some spells that haven't been mentioned:

    Melee Combat Support Spells:
    L2 - Living Undeath (Make you immunt to Crits / Sneak Attacks)
    L5 - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (30' r; +3/+3 & Extra Melee Attack @ Max BAB) *

    L8 - Lion's Roar (120' r; 10d8 Sonic + Stun Enemies; +1d8 +CL Temp HP to Allies

    Living Undeath is invaluable as a melee type, as is Righteous Wrath. Lion's Roar is ideal if you're one who might hover over a melee via your natural flight. The range means it affects a lot, and you can't go wrong both damaging your enemies and healing your allies at the same time.

    Righteous Wrath can be Persisted to affect your entire Party at the beginning of the day, giving everyone a +3 Attack, +3 Damage (Morale Bonus) and Extra Melee Attack @ Max BAB. HUGE!

    Ranged Combat Support Spells:
    L4 - Sound Lance (Max 10d8 Sonic Damage @ Range ; Fort Save 1/2)
    L7 - Radiant Assault (Max 15d6 Light Damage; 20'r; Long Range)
    L8 - Storm Rage (Fly 40'; 10d6 Lightning Ranged Touch, No Save) *

    Sound Lance is a great mage-killer because it's a Fort Save, and it's rare that anything resists Sonic. It's also d8 Damage Dice, which is nice. Radiant Assault is a Light-Damage Fireball that goes up to 15d6. Nothing resists Light.

    Storm Rage is one of my Favorite Spells. Because I dip into the Sacred Exorcist PrC to get Turns (& DMM Persist), I keep this on all day, Maximized. 40' Fly at L16 (earlier than a Favored Soul grows Wings), and 60 HP Ranged Touch Lightning Bolts w/ No Save. Huge Battlefield Support. It IS possible to get all of Persist, Maximize and Energy Admixture on this all at once - but it would require you making this spell the focus of your PC's build because it takes 6 Feats + a Rather Expensive Item. Quite a few think it worth it to have all day 120 Damage from above every Round w/ No Save, and leave the rest of your spells to party buffing, healing and utility.


    All Purpose Spells:
    L4 - Assay Spell Resistance (+10 to overcome SR) *
    L4 - Stifle Spell (Immediate; Target Concentration DC 14 + Cha or spell is lost)
    L6 - Visage of the Deity (SR 20, DR 10 / Magic, Energy Resists) *

    L9 - Greater Visage of the Deity (SR 25, DR 10 / Magic, +Stat Bonuses, Energy Resists) *

    Assay and Stifle are nice utility spells. Stifle is especially nice against enemy casters. If you're a Charisma Junkie, it's reasonable that you could get this up to DC 25+ by L12, and DC 30+ by L20. While most Mage's & Psions have the Skill Pts to max out Concentration, few Divine Casters do. Druids, Clerics and Favored Souls are especially vulnerable to this.

    The Visage Spells are a must if you've got Persists.

    * - These Spells are Persistable via Divine MetaMagic!
    "What kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honor" -- Herodotus, VIII, 26

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    While it's possible, there's almost no reason you'd want to persist Assay Spell Resistence. It is a personal range spell, but it only give you a +10 bonus against one specific creature which you must be able to see when you cast the spell.
    +++Divide by Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe and Reboot+++

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Gents, we're talking favored souls here, not clerics. No divine metamagic without multiclassing.

    Also I don't believe a level 20 favored soul has any use for the visage of the deity spells; many of the benefits overlap with what he's already got from class abilities.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Gents, we're talking favored souls here, not clerics. No divine metamagic without multiclassing.

    Also I don't believe a level 20 favored soul has any use for the visage of the deity spells; many of the benefits overlap with what he's already got from class abilities.
    Favored Souls can get Persist Eligability from certain PrCs that grant the ability to Turn Undead. Sacred Exorcist being one. Many of them do not impede spell progression. One that does, but really is nice if you're a Melee Favored Soul is Soldier of Light. That gets you Turn Undead AND Divine Grace (Pretty Nice for a Cha junkie, no?) for a 2-level dip. At the high end, you'd be adding 10+ to all your saves, making you nearly untouchable by anything allowing a save, and gaining access to Divine Meta Magic.

    And as for Greater Visage (L9):

    SR 25, and the Stat Bonuses alone (+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha) - all untyped (inhereted Half-Celestial Template), are well worth it! Granted, the Favored Soul has the DR and the Wings naturally at full progression.

    Standard Visage (L6) is worth it because you're so far off of DR at the time, and the SR 20 doesn't hurt one bit :). It also give you Resistance (20) to Acid, Elec and Cold - allowing you to focus your natural class resists on Fire, Sonic and Force. You can swap it out later on as you progress in levels.

    With their huge saves, these resists make them pretty much invulnerable at appropriate level damaging spells that are save-for-half damage.
    Last edited by okpokalypse; 2007-03-10 at 04:12 PM.
    "What kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honor" -- Herodotus, VIII, 26

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Such limited divine spell choices at the higher levels so just a thought. Since a FS casts divine spells the same types that are "available to a cleric" and gets limited fixed known spells you could easily infer that All Divine Domain Spells are Fair Game since they are Available to any cleric who could choose the appropiate domains (Always the contemplative angle arguement for extra domains to any cleric taking the PRC to support that). It could give the FS a little more versatility and bang for the buck on the thread.

    There are only 12 cantrips in the PHB so would probably drop the following 3 spells: Inflict Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds (because of PHBII FS healing option and limited use to high level parties) and Virtue. Reasoning is along the lines of spell bang for the buck and why summon a Deva with a level 7+ spell to create fresh water?

    Not on the spell list but a level 7 Lesser Miracle the divine counterpart to Limited Wish like Miracle to Wish (Definitely worth the price for original spell research).

    Lots of Domains so here are a few useful spells including divine domain spells

    Level 1 Bless

    Charm Person from the Charm Domain

    Grease from the Slime Domain

    Level 2 Augury (Divination is better but both are nice for short term DM input and party guidance)

    Enthrall Nobility Domain

    Silence

    Level 3 Suggestion from the Charm Domain

    Level 4 Divination

    Discern Lies

    Level 5 Charm Monster Charm Domain

    Teleport from the Travel Domain

    Level 6 Word of Recall

    Level 7 Holy Word or Themed Counter Part (Unholy Word, Dictum or Word of Chaos)

    Limited Wish from the Spell Domain

    Spell Turning from the Luck Domain

    Level 8 Spell Immunity

    Force Cage from the Craft Domain

    Moment of Prescience from the Luck Domain

    Level 9 Miracle a given IMO

    Gate (Call in an 2 Efreeti (Twisted Wishes), a Solar or a Titan both with lots of spellcasting abilities and Cl 20 spellcasting and the solar can do a "Freebie" Resurrection and Wish (Lot less chance of twisting with a Solar) constant True Seeing and other abilities..........

    Foresight from the Knowledge Domain.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-03-11 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    How about the 2nd level spell divine protection? It's the only way I know of to get a morale bonus to armor class (ok maybe there's some high-level bard thingy too). Works on the whole party.

    Holy word sure sounds good, as does holy aura. I must confess I haven't played a high level divine caster yet so I haven't used them.

    Implosion also looks dandy.

    Not too sure about spell immunity or energy immunity.

    Another level 6 gem is superior resistance. It gives a +6 resistance bonus (better than you can get with the standard cloak/vest) that lasts all day and is a touch spell.

    Also please add in true seeing for 5th level. It solves so many problems, and clerics/favored souls get it a level lower than wizards.

    One more, entropic shield for level 1. It never hurts.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Oh, greater magic weapon is a 4th level spell, not 3rd.

    Also spiritual hammer is the old-school name. It is spiritual weapon now.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Holy word sure sounds good, as does holy aura. I must confess I haven't played a high level divine caster yet so I haven't used them.
    Holy Word is amazing, especially if you have a way of upping you Caster Level. Again, dipping to get Turns, and potentially getting Divine Spell Power gives a Cha-Junkie Favored Soul a +4 CL by burning 1 Turn. Another +4 From Bead of Karma, +1 From Ioun Stone, and maybe another +1 if you take a 1 level dip into the Contemplative PrC and get the Good Domain.

    Holy Word allows NO SAVE vs. Targets as follows:

    Up To Caster Level -10 : Killed (Destroys Undead)
    Up To Caster Level -5 : Paralysed (1d10 Min), Blinded (2d4 R), Deafened (1d4 R)

    Up To Caster Level -1 : Blinded (2d4 R), Deafened (1d4 R)
    Up To Caster Level : Deafened (1d4 R)

    Brutal...

    Oh, and it banishes as well vs. a Will Save at -4.

    So... If you can get your CL up to 30 (doable), you auto-kill anything within 40' of you with 20 HD or less. Nice, huh? L20 Evil Wizard? Done! Balor? Done! Sooooo Good...
    "What kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honor" -- Herodotus, VIII, 26

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Just looked over the spell list. In my "solving problems" idiom, I see that we are missing communication, divination, & transportation spells.

    Edit: We're also low on battlefield control. We could add wall of stone in for level 5.
    Last edited by ken-do-nim; 2007-03-12 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Brambles big brother, Spikes: 3rd level Spell. Spell Compendium. +2 to hit, +1 per level to damage. Find a god with the Lucerne Hammer as a favored weapon.

    Energy Immunity, another must have, is a 6th level spell.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Energy Immunity, another must have, is a 6th level spell.
    We've already got mass resist energy at 3rd level, are you sure? In my experience, once you've made your save for half, 30 points of resistance is plenty. Our 6th level choices are currently full, which would you remove? We already don't have room for harm. Or anti-life shell. Or blade barrier.

    Edit: And maybe we should have room for those. I'm not familiar with greater anyspell or symbol of persuasion, maybe one of those could go (though certainly 'anyspell' sounds good). Also maybe by 20th level superior resistance isn't as necessary. Maybe every corridor you turn in the dungeon is a +10 cloak of resistance just stashed away in a coat room, free for the taking. Highest divine caster I've played is 12th level, so I'll freely admit I am not as familiar with the needs of a 20th level one.
    Last edited by ken-do-nim; 2007-03-12 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    We've already got mass resist energy at 3rd level, are you sure? In my experience, once you've made your save for half, 30 points of resistance is plenty. Our 6th level choices are currently full, which would you remove? We already don't have room for harm. Or anti-life shell. Or blade barrier.

    Edit: And maybe we should have room for those. I'm not familiar with greater anyspell or symbol of persuasion, maybe one of those could go (though certainly 'anyspell' sounds good). Also maybe by 20th level superior resistance isn't as necessary. Maybe every corridor you turn in the dungeon is a +10 cloak of resistance just stashed away in a coat room, free for the taking. Highest divine caster I've played is 12th level, so I'll freely admit I am not as familiar with the needs of a 20th level one.

    In my opinion there is a big difference between Resist Energy and Energy Immunity at high levels. An Empowered Fireball cast by a 10th level Wizard deals 15d6 damage (average 52.5). A CR 16 Old Red Dragon has a breath weapon that deals 15d10 damage (average 82.5).

    If you make your Save and you have Energy Restistance cast on you, you'll be fine with either Resist or Immunity. But if you fail your Save, Energy Immunity could protect you from a ton of damage. And having bullet proof protection is even more important for Favored Souls, who have the worst MAD in the game, and thus generally lower Con. Plus keep in mind that you can cast Energy Immunity on anyone, including the fragile Wizard with poor Ref Saves, who definitely can feel the difference between Energy Immunity and Resist Energy.

    Also, Energy Immunity lasts for one hour per level, and Resist Energy lasts for 10 minutes per level. So logistically, you can cast Immunity at the beginning of the day when you might encounter something that could kill you with an energy attack, and not just before you enter the lair of whatever might kill you with an energy attack. This is also pivotal if your DM wants you to visit the plane of Fire or Cold or whatever, or if he wants to ambush you in your sleep with an energy attacker.

    And while you certainly won't need it for every encounter, a standard tactic for high CR enemies is to fly around and blast you with energy attacks. So I use Energy Immunity a lot. But hey, if it doesn't happen that often in your games, I would just skip it and pick up some scrolls, just in case.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    In my opinion there is a big difference between Resist Energy and Energy Immunity at high levels. An Empowered Fireball cast by a 10th level Wizard deals 15d6 damage (average 52.5). A CR 16 Old Red Dragon has a breath weapon that deals 15d10 damage (average 82.5).
    Thanks for the analysis; I see your point. My only high level 3.5 D&D experience is with a sorcerer and a monk. The sorcerer always uses project image, and if he is actually in the area of effect of anything then I am playing him wrong. The monk has improved evasion and generally makes all of her saves, plus uses her high mobility to stay far from the party.

    Well you still need to pick a 6th level spell to drop from our current list.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Just looked over the spell list. In my "solving problems" idiom, I see that we are missing communication, divination, & transportation spells.

    Edit: We're also low on battlefield control. We could add wall of stone in for level 5.
    Greater Anyspell (Spell Domain and listed in the Spell Compendium Take 15 minutes and you can cast a level 0 - 5 Spell Arcane or Divine from your spellbook (Lesser Anyspell will do it for level 0 - 2 Arcane or Divine Spells)).

    Both spells give the FS a lot more flexibility for minimal cost IMO particularly when used in conjunction with relavtively inexpensive Pearls of Power at standard level 20 gold.

    The two Anyspells will address many communication, divination and transportation issues with a spell book and 15 minutes for up to level 5 arcane and divine spells (Things like Augury, Divination, Commune, Sending, Teleport and True Seeing) if no other party caster can provide the spell.

    ***I like True Seeing which made the known spell list but it costs 250 GP a shot so it depends on your campaign for viabilitiy, utility and usefullness.

    With limited fixed known spells I prefer True Seeing in my spell book like Raise Dead for the purpose of this thread via Anyspell Greater or via the party Cleric, Psion (No Cost) or Wizard.

    Don't forget Lesser Miracle or Miracle will take care of any Emergency True Seeing Needs when 15 minutes can not be spared and time is of the essence but I prefer a balanced caster with those spells as a backup not a regular crutch.

    A backup scroll of True Seeing is only 1,375 GP when you don't have 15 minutes and is immediately accessible if in your Hewards Handy Haversack or the equivalent.

    A Gem of Seeing has a Market Price of 75,000 and is usable for up to 30 minutes a day. Crafting it with Craft Wonderous Item reduces the cost to 37,500.

    There is a good chance someone in the party has either a scroll of True Seeing or a Gem of Seeing if there isn't a psion in the party with the ability.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-03-12 at 06:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    Such limited divine spell choices at the higher levels so just a thought. Since a FS casts divine spells the same types that are "available to a cleric" and gets limited fixed known spells you could easily infer that All Divine Domain Spells are Fair Game since they are Available to any cleric who could choose the appropiate domains (Always the contemplative angle arguement for extra domains to any cleric taking the PRC to support that). It could give the FS a little more versatility and bang for the buck on the thread.
    The Favored Soul chooses spells from the cleric spell list, which is not the same as a domain. So, no picking domain spells.

    That said, I think favored souls ought to be able to take the Arcane Disciple feat presented in the same book to get access to a domain.
    Avatar by Ifni. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Optimal favored soul spell list

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    The Favored Soul chooses spells from the cleric spell list, which is not the same as a domain. So, no picking domain spells.

    That said, I think favored souls ought to be able to take the Arcane Disciple feat presented in the same book to get access to a domain.
    Arcane Disciple still to limited IMO. Paying for "Original" spell research would be a better choice and address the issue without burning a feat as they are still divine spells and already established mechanically in the game.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-03-13 at 08:22 AM.

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