Can 4e be munchkinned?

[Gavran]

For what it's worth, I think what makes Frostcheese "cheese" is that it's silly for every rogue (and many other martial characters) to all arbitrarily specialize in the same element. Being the rogue with the blade as cold as death itself is fine.

Being the rogue with the Raven Queen's blade, allied with the barbarian who wields a claymore forged from True Ice, alongside the ranger whose arrows are coated in a freezing poison...

[GPuzzle]

All while fighting in the North Pole.

[Sol]

For what it's worth, I think what makes Frostcheese "cheese" is that it's silly for every rogue (and many other martial characters) to all arbitrarily specialize in the same element. Being the rogue with the blade as cold as death itself is fine.

Being the rogue with the Raven Queen's blade, allied with the barbarian who wields a claymore forged from True Ice, alongside the ranger whose arrows are coated in a freezing poison...

It can get tired and overused, but literally the only class for whom frostcheese is generally the best elemental option is the rogue, so it's in no way the fault of the frostcheese combo that it's overdone.

[Kurald Galain]

Frostcheese was called that because it was one of the strongest options when the PHB1 was first printed. It has since been nerfed and several stronger options have been printed (such as the Rebreather, the Radiant Mafia, and Killswitch) but the name simply stuck. In a PHB1-only game with no errata, yes, Frostcheese is going to be cheesy. In an all-books game by the most recent rulings? Not so much.

[masteraleph]

Also, there are some alternatives for the Rogue, but they're also pretty specific- Were* and Claw Gloves will do a little less damage when combined with another element, for example (or even with no element but with critfishing), but that doesn't eliminate the limited options issue.

[Inevitability]

Another way of 'breaking' the game:

Be a pixie. Have the ritual 'self-holding-bag' from dragon magazine. Summon your bag of holding. Climb into it. Summon the bag. It now appears at your feet, while you are still inside. The bag now appears at your feet bicycle, but as you are inside the bag, it'd appear turtle soup ERROR at ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR

A problem has been detected and D&D has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer The problem seems to be caused by the following file: Bag_Of_Holding_Pixie.DBP If this is the first time you've seen this error message, restart your game. If this message appears again, follow these steps: Check to make sure any new characters or monsters are properly used. If this is a new build, ask your gaming store for any errata you might need. If problems continue, disable or remove any new characters or monsters.

[VeliciaL]

Another way of 'breaking' the game:

Be a pixie. Have the ritual 'self-holding-bag' from dragon magazine. Summon your bag of holding. Climb into it. Summon the bag. It now appears at your feet, while you are still inside. The bag now appears at your feet bicycle, but as you are inside the bag, it'd appear turtle soup ERROR at ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR

A problem has been detected and D&D has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer The problem seems to be caused by the following file: Bag_Of_Holding_Pixie.DBP If this is the first time you've seen this error message, restart your game. If this message appears again, follow these steps: Check to make sure any new characters or monsters are properly used. If this is a new build, ask your gaming store for any errata you might need. If problems continue, disable or remove any new characters or monsters.

Please sit still while DM finds a suitably heavy object to throw at you.

[Sol]

Another way of 'breaking' the game:

Be a pixie. Have the ritual 'self-holding-bag' from dragon magazine. Summon your bag of holding. Climb into it. Summon the bag. It now appears at your feet, while you are still inside. The bag now appears at your feet bicycle, but as you are inside the bag, it'd appear turtle soup ERROR at ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR ERRORERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR

A problem has been detected and D&D has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer The problem seems to be caused by the following file: Bag_Of_Holding_Pixie.DBP If this is the first time you've seen this error message, restart your game. If this message appears again, follow these steps: Check to make sure any new characters or monsters are properly used. If this is a new build, ask your gaming store for any errata you might need. If problems continue, disable or remove any new characters or monsters.

This really doesn't break any rules, because it doesn't interact with any rules.

There are no rules for putting anything other than *items* in bags, which by a strict reading means that non-items (such as creatures) cannot be placed in bags, regardless of size. Of course, this is open to table variance, and isn't generally gamebreaking, but if your DM lets you do things that aren't handled by the rules, and then you create a paradox, it's not really the rules' fault.

[Inevitability]

This really doesn't break any rules, because it doesn't interact with any rules.

There are no rules for putting anything other than *items* in bags, which by a strict reading means that non-items (such as creatures) cannot be placed in bags, regardless of size. Of course, this is open to table variance, and isn't generally gamebreaking, but if your DM lets you do things that aren't handled by the rules, and then you create a paradox, it's not really the rules' fault.

Well then. First kill the pixie, then drop its body into the bag. Have a cleric raise the pixie without taking it out of the bag. You now got a living pixie in a bag. Problem solved.


Also, on the matter of pixies, being a wizard with Mage Hand means you get to ride around on a giant hand of magical force.

[Sol]

Well then. First kill the pixie, then drop its body into the bag. Have a cleric raise the pixie without taking it out of the bag. You now got a living pixie in a bag. Problem solved.

Well, the text of Raise Dead specifies that you, "must have part of the corpse." So again, if your DM lets you do this without pulling it out of the bag, awesome, but the rules don't really say you can, so all you're doing is asking for permission to do silly things and then creating a resulting paradox. I wouldn't block it at my table, but I'd handwave the paradox with a giggle and move on pretty quickly.

Also, on the matter of pixies, being a wizard with Mage Hand means you get to ride around on a giant hand of magical force.

Mage hand also specifies, "an object weighing 20 pounds or less," so i mean, unless you're dead and being carried by someone else's mage hand, this is also a no-go.

But these are much clearer attempts at muchkinry than most of the previous examples, in that they're attempting to abuse rulesets clearly not meant for that purpose. 4e's disclaimer that the rules do precisely what they say they do and no more and no less, however, makes me feel that in this case the rules don't really allow those things. As a DM, I would. Mage-Hand-riding-pixies are awesome, if expensive in terms of minor actions.

[Dimers]

Mage hand also specifies, "an object weighing 20 pounds or less," so i mean, unless you're dead and being carried by someone else's mage hand, this is also a no-go.

For that one, you have the Mage Hand lift and move a small bowl, one in which a pixie happens to be sitting.

Oh, another piece of "cheese" in the "decent synergy" sense of the word -- there's a great deal you can do with second wind. Like chargecheese, there's not any one broken part, but taking six or eight separate non-broken things can add up to a more powerful total effect than was probably intended by the designers.

[masteraleph]

For that one, you have the Mage Hand lift and move a small bowl, one in which a pixie happens to be sitting.

Oh, another piece of "cheese" in the "decent synergy" sense of the word -- there's a great deal you can do with second wind. Like chargecheese, there's not any one broken part, but taking six or eight separate non-broken things can add up to a more powerful total effect than was probably intended by the designers.

For reference: the Google search term is Hyperpoxia (along with d&d search terms as necessary).

[GPuzzle]

Hyperpoxia is the Striker version of that. If I'm not mistaken, you can get something similar, except leader-y, with a Mul Warden|Warlord/Ardent. It appears to be pretty fun.

[Naez]

The way I compared it for one of my friends who is new to dnd is in 3.5 you can create characters capable of making and destroying entire planes of existence at will. In 4e you may get to rule a country and the most devastating attack in the whole game would maybe wipe a small village off the map.

[Doctor Kumquat]

In 4e, you can get wizards capable of dominating everything within 25 feet, with a strong enough penalty to saving throws that they can never escape it, twice per encounter. You can also get rangers that can fire an arrow at each and every enemy target they can see (while standing on a mountain, so... the entire invading army) at will, or deal enough burst damage to slay a god in a single round. I've even read about an elven high mage that could freeze time and murder the entire planet with an army of phantom clones, in his sleep.

So yeah, there are some brokenly strong tricks available, but the very worst of them are pretty much all extreme edge case builds that only come online at level 30 or close to it. In 3.5, you could come up with a monster like Pun-Pun by level 5 and bring all of reality under their dominion.

[Inevitability]

In 3.5, you could come up with a monster like Pun-Pun by level 5 and bring all of reality under their dominion.

Level 1, you mean.

[Geoff]

In 4e, you can get wizards capable of dominating everything within 25 feet, with a strong enough penalty to saving throws that they can never escape it, twice per encounter.

You could, in 2009. Those saving throw penalties were 'updated' to apply only to the fist stave. I suspect the remainder are similarly closed loopholes, but I don't recall the specifics...

In 3.5, you could come up with a monster like Pun-Pun by level 5 and bring all of reality under their dominion.

That's another 'edge case' that required willfully mis-interpreting rules in a way no DM would go for. Not even no 'sane' DM.


If you look at plausible optimization, though, both 3.5 and 4e have plenty of room for it. The payoff is just a lot less dramatic in 4e. In 3.5, I could optimize my fighter-based build to the wall, and stay competitive with not-optimized-at-all Clerics and a Sorcerer right up to about 13th level. Conversely, you could optimize a Wizard or CoDzilla and wreck the same campaign, completely. 3.5 is were we got the 'Class Tier' thing. In 4e, virtually all the classes would be sitting in Tier 3. You can optimize them, but they don't break as badly.

[ryuplaneswalker]

One thing I have discovered is that, a Dragonborn Paladin can turn dragonbreath into a heck of an ability for something that is a minor action with a few feats. Close Burst 5, that gives all allies in the burst +1 to their next attack and subjects everything it hits to divine sanction and recharges when you hit a finishing blow.

[masteraleph]

One thing I have discovered is that, a Dragonborn Paladin can turn dragonbreath into a heck of an ability for something that is a minor action with a few feats. Close Burst 5, that gives all allies in the burst +1 to their next attack and subjects everything it hits to divine sanction and recharges when you hit a finishing blow.

Yes, but you've now spent 3 feats on it, which is half your allocation per tier. I'm not saying that's a terrible idea- Draconic Challenge (which gets you the Sanction) is certainly worth it, and the others could be. But it's not particularly overpowered, and it gets less accurate as you level up because they gave it the wrong bonus progression. Compare that to a Rebreather (can regain Dragonbreath every time they use it, and deal reasonably significant damage with it each time), and you see something that is pretty munchkin-ish.

[Tegu8788]

You can also combine the two. Rebreather MC Paladin. Damage may be less, but you can do some real fun with it.

[Verbannon]

One thing though that wasn't mentioned was how easy it is for any DM to optimize the synergy of a monster group to be just as powerful and even more powerful then the players can possibly get to without breaking any of the given rules. Especially when mixed in with beneficial terrain.

[Yakk]

If you don't understand them, and your character is worse than mine as a result, you have three options: complain to the developers that built in too much variance for optimized and unoptimized characters to share the same table without driving eachother crazy, learn the rules, or ask me to help you improve your character.

You have more than 3 options.
4) Leave the table, as you don't want to have an overly mechanically complex character, but want to roleplay.
5) Convince others at the table to bound the amount of optimization they put into characters, especially where they overlap.

In games like D&D your competence is relative to a few things. First, it is relative to your own character in previous levels. Having it go up feels nice: being able to defeat challenges that where hard at previous levels.

Second, it is relative to the mechanical advice in the books about the world. Ie, level-appropriate encounters. 4e has a problem that by paragon an "unoptimized" (pick powers and feats for flavour rather than effectiveness at defeating things) group of characters will find combat turning into a slog. Not a difficult slog at paragon, but you are fighting with wifflebats. By epic, the slog becomes worse, and bad enough that it becomes difficult to win normal encounters (if you use MM3/MV era monsters at least -- it not, nix the difficult part).

The easiest way to deal with this on the player side is to use some optimization. On the DM side, you can do a few things (including "double monster damage" and "halve monster HP" as easy transformations of the game)

Third, it is relative to the other players. If you are quite effective at killing monsters you fight, but your friend is 10x more effective, you look incompetent. And any DM worth their salt will dynamically alter the difficulty of the typical encounter based on the competence of the group: so while you might be solid against "book standard" encounters, if you are the less optimized character in a party encounters may rapidly grow in strength and difficulty to the point where you become incompetent.

Forth, it becomes relative to what challenges your DM puts forward, as mentioned above. Even if your party is or isn't optimized, your DM might presume they should or shouldn't be, and face you against challenges that are easier/harder than book. If your DM runs stealth such that you have to make a check every square you cross, and any roll of a 1 means you are auto-detected, then no matter what your stealth bonus is you are incompetent at it: you aren't able to sneak anywhere significant.

Anything else is incorrect. Optimization is in no way bad for role play, unless you really like roleplaying incompetent combatants.

Competence in a game is an illusion: "over" optimization by one player can cause the group's average apparent competence to fall.

It can be easier to remove the sole problem (the player who over-optimizes) easier than it can be to fix the broader problem (game mechanics or the rest of the group not wanting to build their character based off complex subsystems in the game).

In my opinion, when optimizing, you should examine your parties level of optimization. If you significantly exceed it, you should reconsider.

[Verbannon]

You can also totally min/max in a way that makes a character feel like a munchkin in the right situation. I had a ranger/rogue that could deal ludicrous amounts of damage early in an encounter. Only problem was I had to go into melee range with my bows to trigger the oas I needed to get the mega damage.

[Rater202]

Google the "Orcus Slayer" build.

It's a full commitment build, but at level 30 it lets you do infinite damage.

[Inevitability]

Google the "Orcus Slayer" build.

It's a full commitment build, but at level 30 it lets you do infinite damage.

Then WOTC drew their +6 Fullblade of Errata, forged from pure Correcticum and imbued with the spirit of a paranoid DM, and hacked the build to tiny shreds.

[Yakk]

It did not deal infinite damage.

I mean, the average damage it delt was infinite, but it did that with zero probability.

As an example, imagine if you deal a base of 1 damage.

But you flip a coin. If it lands heads, you deal 3x as much damage, and flip again.

If you land tails, you stop.

The damage this build does, on average (the mean), is infinite, because the height of damage for a given case increases faster than the "width" (probability) goes down.

0 Heads = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5 contribution to average damage
Exactly 1 Head = 0.25 * 3 = 1.5 contribution to average damage
Exactly 2 Heads = 0.125 * 9 = 2.25 contribution to average damage
Exactly N heads = (3/2)^N
sum from 1 to K of N heads > (3/2)^K

But half the time it deals 1 damage.

Orcus Slayer was a bit like that, but with a much higher median.

I think the probability you'd eventually run out of attacks was 1. I could be wrong.

[Akodo Makama]

0 Heads = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5 contribution to average damage
Exactly 1 Head = 0.25 * 3 = 0.75 contribution to average damage
Exactly 2 Heads = 0.125 * 9 = 1.125 contribution to average damage
Exactly N heads = ((3/2)^N)/2

Arithmetic corrected. Conclusion unaffected.
Sum diverges to infinity

[Yakk]

Infinity, infinity/2, what is the difference?

[Akodo Makama]

Infinity, infinity/2, what is the difference?

An infinite difference, which may be an infinitesimal distinction, depending on interminable divergence.

[Auron3991]

Well, unless it's been hit with errata (admittedly, I only have phb 1 and 2), a level 11 fey pact warlock makes minions useless and can do alright damage and, while I haven't personally run one, a demon pact warlock runs its power damage and accuracy off of constitution (which is admittedly much weaker than in 3.5).