Dragonlance Wizards

[Sahune]

Flicking through the the Dragonlance book regarding mages, it looks like you only get a few select schools to cast spells from once you don the robes. I haven't played much 3.5 D&D lately, but it looks like the White Robes get a small increase of power on their strengths for a lot of going without on the effective in-your-face stuff. The Red and Black Robes seem to get fairly binding limitations too, so it seems like they all become cariactures of their schools (niceness, functional and deadly). Is this right, or have I missed something here?

[broderickdruce]

Some are also bound by a code (fluff) but generally that is correct. White robes generally use their magic to help others and black robes generally use their magic selfishly. Does this mean YOUR character has to fit in the category you chose? not really, remember, Raistlin was a red robe for a while.

On a side note: I like what they did in dragonlance to make it so wizards don't necessarily always win. If they have a poor CON and poor FORT then they are very limited in their casting. Though this can be gotten around it takes a bit to do.

[clarkvalentine]

Is this right, or have I missed something here?

They're pretty much just Player's Handbook wizards. Do you have a specific example of limitations you're talking about?

[Sahune]

Mostly the limitations forbidding the schools. The extra skills they pick up to compensate are great, but it seems like they become one-to-few trick ponies with a large chunk of the spelllist removed.

[JadedDM]

Yeah, it's always pretty much been that way. Actually, it's my understanding that the school limitations are much looser nowadays than they were in the original 1E version.

[clarkvalentine]

Yes, things are much less rigid now. Any robe can specialize in any school- it's just institutional tradition that white robes focus on divination and abjuration, red robes on illusion and transmutation, black robes on enchantment and necromancy. There are mechanics to enhance your specialty, if you focus in one of your Order's favored schools, but there's no requirement that you do so.


A white robe necromancer will definitely get some raised eyebrows and odd looks from his colleagues, but it's legal.

[Sturmjaeger]

Bah, I'll choose a renegae sorcerer.

[Assassinfox]

Knights of the Thorn all the way! WOOOOOOOO!

[Leather_Book_Wizard]

I believe that there was something in Towers of High Sorcery about WoHS's being able to be generalists. You just lose the benefit of enhanced specialization at lvl 1.

[clarkvalentine]

I believe that there was something in Towers of High Sorcery about WoHS's being able to be generalists. You just lose the benefit of enhanced specialization at lvl 1.

You can also use the enhanced specialization (renamed Arcane Focus in Towers of High Sorcery) to become a specialist at that point. Or you can just not bother, and remain a generalist.

Or, you can not bother to take the Wizard of High Sorocery prestige class at all - it's not required. As long as your character takes the Test and doesn't seriously cheese off the leadership of the Orders, he's a member whether he takes levels of the PrC or not.

[MeklorIlavator]

Or, you can not bother to take the Wizard of High Sorocery prestige class at all - it's not required. As long as your character takes the Test and doesn't seriously cheese off the leadership of the Orders, he's a member whether he takes levels of the PrC or not.

So is it similar to a all encompassing guild that everyone's a member of, and the PrC is just representing advancement in the guild? Because that's definatly not our DM initial reaction.

[clarkvalentine]

So is it similar to a all encompassing guild that everyone's a member of, and the PrC is just representing advancement in the guild?

That's not a bad way to look at it. The PrC represents a wizard's commitment to the Orders of High Sorcery. Someone who takes all 10 levels of it is extremely involved with the Orders, is probably involved in its politics, consults with his brother wizards on questions important to The Magic, etc.

Another wizard might take the Test and then not have much to do with the Orders for the rest of his life. He keeps the membership card in his wallet, but that's about it - ie, he never takes a level of the PrC, continuing in Wizard, or going Loremaster, or whatever he wants to do.

Because that's definatly not our DM initial reaction.

Yeah, the way it's written up in the DLCS imples you MUST take it. That's not exactly what the original authors had in mind - I think the WOTC development team (as opposed to the original Sovereign Press authors) had different ideas of how it should work. It was revised the following year in Towers of High Sorcery.

[Lord Tataraus]

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a whole section on that topic, in fact, my very first game that I DMed was based in the Dragonlance world. There is even a PrC Wizard of High Sorcery. By the flavor, you aren't a true wizard untill you take the PrC (and are therefore watched carefully). When you gain your first level you gain a second specialized school depending on your robe color so you would specialize in divination and abjuration for white robes, illusion and transmutation for red robes, and enchantment and necromancy for black robes while having three prohibited schools (I'm pretty sure it's three, but it might be four). That's why they are limited, but they are amazing at two schools instead of one (especially because of the other class abilities).

[themightybiggun]

Yeah but the idea of "having to take the PrC" was retconned out, evidently that wasn't Sovereign Press' original intentions. The sourcebook Towers of High Sorcery actually gives a whole slew of differently themed mages.

Basically, as long as you take the test, then you're a member of the order, and as long as you only take focused arcane classes (i.e., they prepare spells and are arcane) then you still fall into the realm of "ok" magic for the orders. Taking the prestige classes represents a true tower mage that spends all their time on business for their order rather than their own, independent studies.

[JadedDM]

Do you need the PrC to be a member of the actual Conclave, though? The actual 21-seat council? Or to be Highmage or Head of any of the Orders?

[Foeofthelance]

AFAIK the Conclave is all wizards entirely, with the 21 just being the witnesses to the test. The Heads of the Orders pass on their titles to the person of their choice, and so while it probably isn't a requirement (Raistlin and Dalamar both headed the Dark Robes IIRC, and neither was exactly a stellar example of what a Black Robe should be) it probably doesn't hurt to be a team player.

[clarkvalentine]

The PrC is purely a game mechanic. Nothing in-game references it directly (you don't have characters - as opposed to players - sitting around discussing what class levels they have), so no, it's not strictly a requirement to sit on the Conclave.

However, it's easy to presume that members of the Conclave
are very dedicated to the Orders, in the sense that they have spend a great deal of time and personal investment in them and their inner workings. The Wizard of High Sorcery PrC is the intended means to represent that sort of devotion, so it's a safe bet that any designer writing up a Conclave member would give that member at least a few levels.

[JadedDM]

Raistlin was never Head of the Black Robes. Dalamar was, but I'm not sure why you think he was a poor representation of what Black Robes should be. I thought he fit that role pretty well.

[clarkvalentine]

In fact, Dalamar (in his stat block in the Age of Mortals supplement) has 10 levels of the PrC, if I'm not mistaken. Raistlin only has 7 (while he has 8 of loremaster), perhaps indicative of the fact that his interests were elsewhere.

[iltharanos]

Raistlin was never Head of the Black Robes. Dalamar was, but I'm not sure why you think he was a poor representation of what Black Robes should be. I thought he fit that role pretty well.

Aha, but Raistlin could easily have become Head of the Black Robes ... since Ladonna was no real challenge for him. Raistlin just chose not to. I think what the previous poster meant about Raistlin and Dalamar was that they weren't good Black Robes in the sense that they put themselves first, the Black Robe Order second.

[Foeofthelance]

I said that Dalamar wasn't a good choice for the Black Robes, as he took them for only two reasons: He was outcast from Elf society, and thus wasn't allowed to take any other robes, amd because he didn't really focus on the necromancy till after Takhisis waved it under his nose. Up until that point he might as well have been a Red Robe. Though that might have made it harder to spy on Raistlin.

[clarkvalentine]

He was outcast from Elf society, and thus wasn't allowed to take any other robes,

Where do you get this?

[ReluctantDragon]

He was outcast from Elf society, and thus wasn't allowed to take any other robes,

Reverse that. In the Legends trilogy, Dalamar revealed that he was exiled DUE to the fact that he chose the black robes.

[themightybiggun]

uh, no. Dalamar was outcast from elf society because he practiced magic. Once he was out, he stopped caring about being a "good guy."

is this the same clarkvalentine from the DL boards?

EDIT; blast, ninja'd

[clarkvalentine]

is this the same clarkvalentine from the DL boards?

That's me!

Dalamar committed two nearly unforgivable sins, as far as his Silvanesti brethren are concerned. The first was that he practiced magic at all, beyond a certain level. He was of House Servitor, and that caste of Silvanesti society is forbidden from doing the level of magic Dalamar performed. Silvanesti elven society is very much a "know your place" sort of structure, and he bucked the system.

As if that weren't bad enough, the second was that at his Test of High Sorcery, he was awarded the Black Robes - only the White are fully accepted in Silvanesti society.

So they exiled him as a dark elf. Not very nice, but he wasn't a very nice guy, either. He was the most interesting black robe, in my opinion, though, because he showed that you can be evil and still be able to cooperate with others when the situation demands it.

[themightybiggun]

Hehe, I go under the call sign "sixfootdwarf" back on Krynn.

[Foeofthelance]

Ah, I was working on something either Astinus or his brother said in one of the short stories.

[clarkvalentine]

That's the thing about Dragonlance - there have been so many authors with their fingers in the pie, so to speak, that it's really hard to maintain consistency.

I love it, but trying to list all the internal contradictions would drive you barking mad.

[Foeofthelance]

Very, very true.