[Template] Anthropomorphic Creature

[Krellen]

Ok, and if you are following the conversation, I said that I Disagree and believe that it should be, if anything at all, less than a CR 10.

Uh.

I think we're saying the exact same thing. An athropomorphic elephant isn't CR 10. We're both saying that, and disagreeing for no good reason.

The template as written however, makes the anthropomorphic elephant either CR 3 - if you read it literally - or CR 10, if you read it as intended. Etiher one is wrong; the right answer is somwhere in-between.

[Calver]

My apologies, you are absolutely correct. Every time I read your posts, for whatever reason, it came off as if you wanted a higher CR. Now that I've read them for the fourth time with your latest post supplemented, I realize that I was mistaking your meaning.
Once again, Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Indon]

My only misgiving is that dogfolk are always inherently better than catfolk.

Dogs have a better strength, yes, but did you look at all the cat racial skills?

Catfolk racial skills:
+2 Climb
+2 Move Silently
+2 Hide
+4 Jump
+4 Balance
Can use Dex mod rather than Str mod for Climb and Jump checks
An additional +2 Hide in tall grass or areas of heavy growth

And Dogfolk'd get like +2 to Jump, and +2 to survival when tracking by scent.

[Caduceus]

I saw that after I made the post. And catfolk would get the same bonus for scent-tracking.

[Innis Cabal]

there is already a catfolk race in races of the wild, wouldnt it be redundant to make another? other then that it looks great

[Caduceus]

I don't have that book, and I don't want to waste the money on it when I have a kid that needs to be paid for. Formula's expensive, man.

[Triaxx]

Ah scent. Fantastically powerful. Unless one happens to be travelling with a Half-orc barbarian.

'Huh? What Soap? It good for eat?'

[quotemyname]

Anyone else getting visions of anthro turtles and rats with 'Ninja' as a favored class?

The ninja turtles crossed my mind, but i was thinking more of a anthropomorphic hedgehog ;) SEGA's greatest creation!

[Morgan_Scott82]

I can't think of anything that qualifies to apply this template that wouldn't have a -2 to int by rules you've posted, not to mention a goodsized penalty to Cha would be very common. Why not take a page from the lycanthrope template and only modifiy apply racial modifiers to the physical scores?

[Fax Celestis]

I can't think of anything that qualifies to apply this template that wouldn't have a -2 to int by rules you've posted, not to mention a goodsized penalty to Cha would be very common. Why not take a page from the lycanthrope template and only modifiy apply racial modifiers to the physical scores?

That may prove fruitful. Let me consider it.

[Stormthorn]

Level Adjustment
+0, modified by the following:

+1 for each extra pair of arms. +1 for Large size. +1 for total ability modifiers greater than +0. +1 for natural armor greater than +2. +1 for a fly or burrow speed.

Since they lose a lot (half their armor values and HD and some stats on their alternate movement means and so on) couldnt it be possible to have a creature that is weaker after applying this template? Shouldnt negetive level adgustments be possible. An anthropomorphic whale would be losing size, natural armor, swim speed, and a ton of hitpoints.

[Fax Celestis]

Since they lose a lot (half their armor values and HD and some stats on their alternate movement means and so on) couldnt it be possible to have a creature that is weaker after applying this template? Shouldnt negetive level adgustments be possible. An anthropomorphic whale would be losing size, natural armor, swim speed, and a ton of hitpoints.

Those are represented by loss of Racial Hit Dice.

[Maldraugedhen]

Right, he's saying, if they become weaker, shouldn't they have a negative LA?

[Fax Celestis]

Right, he's saying, if they become weaker, shouldn't they have a negative LA?

No. Nothing is going to get so weak through this template that it will warrant a negative LA. Remember, LA+0 can be as weak as a Kobold (total stat mods -4, small, light sensitive, some racial stat bonuses, and darkvision) or as bland as a Human (bonus feat, bonus skill point).

[levi]

This is a really cool template and I'm sure I'll use it for some stuff, but I have some issues I'd like to point out.

Arms

If you make some centipede folk and their base creature had fifteen pairs of legs, they'd end up with six pairs of arms. I suppose the template is designed to work best with tetrapods, hexapods, and octapods, but it starts to break down around stuff like centipedes, squid, and other many limbed creatures.

Well, I guess it dosn't really break down, it just gets silly. If I picture an anthro centipede, I figure that they'll have four, six, or eight arms at the most. Any more than that and it starts looking like that hundred armed Hindu demon or a very tall pillar of a torso sprouting arms up the side of it. Maybe a limit to the number of legs than can become arms is in order.

Size Changing

Follwing the template rules, it's implied that when a template changes a creature's size, it's implied that it's physical ability scores, natural armor, and damage are changed as specified by the size change rules in the MM. In the abilities section you state how to determin the racial modifiers and specify that the creature's strength and con go up or down based on the size change.

I see two different ways this could be interpreted. The first is that you apply the size change modifiers as specified in the MM and then reduce the scores further. The other is that you ignore the size change modifiers in the MM and only reduce the scores of the creature as specified in the abilities section. (If it's the second option, you should specify this more clearly.)

As an example, if you start with a large rhinoceros, it changes to medium. The MM rules say that it gets "-8 Str +2 Dex -4 Con" and the template says it gets "-2 Str -2 Con", so what do the total mods end up as?

Base Rhinoceros Modifiers: Str +16 Dex +0 Con +10
Medium Modifiers (MM): Str +8 Dex +2 Con +6
Medium Modifiers (Template): Str +14 Dex +0 Con +8
Medium Modifiers (Both): Str +6 Dex +2 Con +4

Also, shrinking to medium gives the rhino -2 natural armor and the template says to halve natural armor, so does the rhino who started out with +7 natural armor end up with +2 [ (7 - 2) / 2 ] or +3 [ 7 / 2]?

Type Changing

When a creature changes type and aquires the augmented subtype, unless the template specifies otherwise, it is supposed to retain the features of it's original type and switch to the traits of it's new type. For an animal to monstrous humaniod change, this means they lose low-light vision and gain darkvision 60' and some profiencies. For vermin this means they gain some profiencies.

However, the example given doesn't seem to follow these rules, implying that the template should spell out how it differs from the norm.

Example

Ok, here I continue with the rhinofolk example. I've statted out rhinofolk as a race, which serves to illustrate some of my points. The lines in green are alternate stats based on not using the MM size change rules and only applying the stuff in the template. The lines in blue are monstrous humanoid features that it may or may not have depending on how it's augmented subtype is applied.

Rhinofolk Traits

• +6 Str +2 Dex +4 Con
  
• +14 Str +0 Dex +8 Con
• Size Medium.
• Rhinofolk base land speed is 30 feet.
  
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Low-Light Vision.
• Racial Hit Dice: A rhinofolk begins with four levels of animal, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +4, and Will +1.
• Racial Skills: A rhinofolk’s animal levels give it skill points equal to 7 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Listen, and Spot.
• Racial Feats: A rhinofolk’s animal levels give it two feats.
• +2 natural armor bonus.
  
• +3 natural armor bonus.
• Natural Weapon: gore (1d8).
  
• Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A rhinofolk is automatically proficient with simple weapons.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Rhinofolk. Bonus Languages: Any.
• Favored Class: Barbarian.
• Level adjustment +2.
  
• Level adjustment +3.

So how is this actually supposed to come out?

[Fax Celestis]

Keep the blue lines, lose the green lines. In essence, the modifications in the template are above and beyond those presented for size changes in the MM.

[levi]

Oh, ok then. But why doen't Glenn have darkvision and why does he retain his low light vision. Normally, when a creature gains the Augmented subtype, it looses all traits of it's old type and gains all traits of it's new type, but retains the features of it's old type. If this is not the case, it should say so in the Type section.

One thing I think might make a flavorful addition to the template is the Empathy ability that lycanthrops get. It allows for limited interaction with the base creature. So catfolk can talk to cats, sort of.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “foe,” “flee,” and “attack.”

[Rowanomicon]

Here's something I've been thinking of for a little bit. I don't know if I'll actually use this in the campaign I will be starting, but I might, and it'll be fun to do anyway. Here are Horsemen. I used the Light Horse stat block.

- -6 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
- Medium
- Base Land Speed 30ft (The text infers that the speed would be 60ft, but I think 30ft makes more sense as it becomes a 2 legged creature.)
- 1 Hit Die of Animal 1d8 hp, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, 2+Int Mod Skill Points
- Low-light Vision
- Scent
- LA +1 (+2 including the racial HD)

I think I did that properly.
I think for use in my campaign I may drop the one racial HD.
That does look a bit powerful for LA +1 to me.

EDIT: I adjusted the stats due to size change. I must say this is more balanced, but I don't agree with it.

[Indon]

The ninja turtles crossed my mind, but i was thinking more of a anthropomorphic hedgehog ;) SEGA's greatest creation!

Where would you find the base stats for a hedgehog?

Anthro hedgehog monk with Dash and Run feats... hmm... maybe permanencied Haste as well...

[Caduceus]

More like the Sprint ability of the cheetah.

[Annarrkkii]

Out of curiosity, what was your Glenn's strength modifier? I can't figure out how you have 11 if you use the elite array, as a toad would have some heavy strength penaltage...

Nevermind. I realized you just addressed that pretty recently. In addition to the size change bonuses was what I was after.

This would be pretty potent when combined with Gamebird's random animal listings...

[Rowanomicon]

As requested by Stephen Colbert... I proundly present... The MANGLE *CAW*

Mangle
- Medium Monsterous Humanoid (Augmented Animal)
- Speed: 30ft; Fly 40ft (poor)
- Natural Attack: Bite (1d6+str mod)
- Low-light vision
- +6 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
- +8 racial bonus on Spot checks
- LA +2 or +3?

There y'go Stephen. I hope he checks the boards...
Personally if I were using this as a race in a campaign I'd reduce the Con mod to +2, but that's just me. I'd also probably increase the Wis mod to +4...
As far as a favoured class goes I'd say Rogue would be best. Although Fighter or Barbarian could be used, depending on how the society was portrayed.

EDIT: I realized I hadn't adjusted the abilities due to size change. I have to say I definitely disagree with this now. I don't think +6 Str or Con is in order for this race.

[Rowanomicon]

Just a couple things I'd like to say about this.
Firstly I don't think the extra -/+2 to Str and Con for changing sizes is either necessary or good.
With that rule you end up with races made from smaller animals stronger than races made from larger animals.
In fact the size change rules are such that it may require the template to provide a bonus or penalty in the other direction. So that we don't end up with horse people having -6 to Str and owl people +6 to Str.
Note that with the template adjustments the other way around owl people get -2 to Str and horse people also get -2 to Str. Now, in my opinion, this isn't perfect as I'd never put a horse race with a Str penalty into play in my campaigns, but, again in my opinion, it's way closer to the way it should be.
Also I think it should be at the discretion of the creator if a six limbed creature become 4 armed or 4 legged. Other than that I think 6, or maybe 8, should be the maximum amount or limbs that can turn to arms. And the amount of arms should never exceed the amount of legs +2.

[Thantos]

Yeah I agree with limiting the amount of arms because Monsterous centipeds look scary powerful what 10 to 50 arms is allot of attacks as a full round action isn't it. I also think that the DM/Player should be able to chose how many legs and how many arms he or she has with in certain limits that way if you wanted you could have two entirely diferent species from the same animal. For example that could lead to three diferent sub species of spider anthros.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Hmmm....reminds me of the Anthropomorphic template in the Monster Manual 2. I'll have to compare them in greater detail, 'cause the template in MM2? Kinda powerful.

[Threeshades]

Im sorry to raise this thread from the dead, but since you pointed me to this template and im using it right now on a dire rat.
I found that it needs some minor adjustments:
an anthropomorphic dire rat would have total ability modifiers of +5 and the ability to convey the filth fever through its bite. all that at a level adjustment of +1
what i would suggest is to Lower the Dex of a creature by size increase and also to increase it by size decrease.

Also you could rule that if the base creature has INT 1, the INT score of the final creature is -4 instead of just -2

And finally you could add a +1 to LA for each Extraordinary ability and for each 2 uses/day of a spell-like or super natural ability.

In the current form an anthropomorphic dire rat would have:
STR +2, DEX +6, CON +4; INT -2; WIS +2; CHA -2 (total mod: +5)
Bite, Low-light vision, scent, filth fever on bite(Ex), +8 to swim and climb (using dex instead of str for swim and climb), 30 ft land and 20 ft climb speed, +1 natural armor
All that at LA +1

with my suggestions that would be:
STR +2, DEX +4, CON +4; INT -4; WIS +2; CHA -2 (total mod: +3)
Bite, Low-light vision, scent, filth fever on bite(Ex), +8 to swim and climb (using dex instead of str for swim and climb), 30 ft land and 20 ft climb speed, +1 natural armor
At an LA of +2


This would again pull down tiny creatures (such as rats with which im also experimenting), to compensate that you could rule that a base creature with a STR of less than 4 is treated as ST 4 before applying the template.
This way an anthropomorphic rat would have
STR -4 (base 2 is raised to 4, +2 for size increase), DEX +2 (because of lowering by size increase), CON +2, INT -2, WIS +2, CHA -2 (total mod: -1)

[Pyroconstruct]

Yeah, this has the same problem as the SS Anthro template: stat adjustments are just plain weird, as the above examples with incredibly weak Anthropomorphic Horse versus Anthropomorphic Raven show.

I would suggest replacing it with a much simpler rule: The "final" race has +2 to the animal's highest physical ability score (In a tie, Str first, then Dex, then Con, -2 to the animal's lowest physical ability score (same priority order in a tie). I think you'll get much more playable and sensible results out of this one.

Also, as written, Anthro-vermin are smarter than anthro-animals. Huh? Even if you don't use my suggestion, I'd fix that.

[Threeshades]

Yeah, this has the same problem as the SS Anthro template: stat adjustments are just plain weird, as the above examples with incredibly weak Anthropomorphic Horse versus Anthropomorphic Raven show.

I would suggest replacing it with a much simpler rule: The "final" race has +2 to the animal's highest physical ability score (In a tie, Str first, then Dex, then Con, -2 to the animal's lowest physical ability score (same priority order in a tie). I think you'll get much more playable and sensible results out of this one.

Also, as written, Anthro-vermin are smarter than anthro-animals. Huh? Even if you don't use my suggestion, I'd fix that.

it would basically turn out to have all creatures created from animals at an INT -2

I also think reducing the LA by 1 for each of 2 racial HD (of course not below 0) might be useful. I will write something down and make some experiments.

I think i should take a good look at animals and see what is doable there.

Maybe exclude some sizes of animals with different sized versions. For example for sharks and vipers there would be only one size available. That would stop a Huge shark from being weaker but more dextrous than a medium size one. Because its simply not there anymore.

[Threeshades]

Okay I made something based on Fax's template. It should erase some oddities:
---------------------------------------
Creating an Anthropomorphic Creature
"Anthropomorphic" is a template that can be applied to any non-swarm animal, vermin, or--at DM's discretion--magical beast. If a kind of animal is available in different sizes, always use the one closest to medium size. If a kind of vermin is available in different sizes, always use the one closest to tiny. You cannot use any other size for the base creature. A dire animal is always treated as a different kind of animal than its normal animal version in this regard.

Size and Type
An anthropomorphic creature's size is dependent on the size of the base creature. If the base creature was Tiny or smaller, the new creature's size is Small. If the base creature was Small, Medium, or Large, the new creature's size is Medium. If the base creature was Huge or bigger, the new creature's size is Large.

An anthropomorphic creature's type changes to Monstrous Humanoid, and it gains the (Augmented) subtype. The new creature also retains all subtypes of the original creature. If the base creature had the Aquatic subtype, the new creature also gains the Amphibious special quality (see below).

Since it is assuming a humanoid shape, an anthropomorphic creature's limbs change. Half the creature's limbs (round up to the nearest number evenly divisible by 2) become legs, so that a six-limbed creature would have two arms and four legs. If the base creature has no limbs (such as a snake or eel), the anthropomorphic creature gains two arms. If the base creature has two limbs, the anthropomorphic creature gains two legs.

Creatures with more than four arms as a result of this qualify for Multiweapon Fighting (see below), while those with more than four legs gain the Stability special quality (see below).

Hit Dice
The base creature loses half its hit dice (rounded down), to a minimum of 0. Creatures with 0 or 1 HD advance by class. Most anthropomorphic creatures have a favored class of Fighter, though Barbarian, Rogue, and Sorceror are not unheard of. This is largely up to DM discretion though.

Speed
An anthropomorphic creature has speed according to its size and original form. If the new creature is Small, it has a base speed of 20' or 1/2 the speed of the original form, whichever is greater. If the new creature is Medium or Large, it has a base speed of 30', or the speed of the original form, whichever is greater.

If the base creature has a fly speed, the new one does as well. This fly speed can only be used under a light load or less, and has a maximum speed of 1/2 the base creature's fly speed or 20', whichever is greater. The base creature's maneuverability also degrades one class: perfect to good; good to average; average to poor; poor to clumsy. If the base creature's maneuverability was clumsy, the new creature has wings but cannot fly under their power. Instead, it can glide for a distance equal to half the base creature's fly speed with a maneuverability of clumsy.

An anthropomorphic creature also retains any other forms of movement (swim, burrow, climb, etc.), though these speeds are halved (or are set at 20', whichever is greater).

Armor Class
An anthropomorphic creature has half the natural armor of the original form (rounded down).

Attacks
An anthropomorphic creature keeps any natural attacks or special attacks of the base creature that do not require the use of hind legs. These natural attacks scale according to the creature's size.

Special Qualities
An anthropomorphic creature retains any extraordinary special qualities (such as darkvision) of the base creature as-is. Further, an anthropomorphic creature retains the spell-like and supernatural abilities of the base creature, but changes the caster levels on such to equal to "one-half HD, rounded down (minimum 1)." Supernatural and spell-like abilites with uses per day are reduced to once per day; those with unlimited uses per day are reduced to three times per day.

Certain anthropomorphic creatures gain special qualities based on their forms.

Stability: An anthropomorphic creature with more than two legs gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

Multiweapon Fighting: An anthropomorphic creature with more than two arms qualifies for the Multiweapon Fighting tree.

Amphibious: An anthropomorphic creature whose original form is aquatic gains the ability to survive equally well on land and in water.

Saves
An anthropomorphic creature retains any racial saving throw bonuses of the base creature, though they are halved (round down).

Abilities
An anthropomorphic creature's physical racial ability modifiers can be determined by subtracting ten (or eleven, if odd) from the base creature's ability scores. Treat the base creature's strength and constitution scores as two points higher and the dexterity score as two points lower for each size category the anthropomorphic creature increases, or treat the strength and constitution scores as two points lower and the dexterity score as two points higher for each size category the anthropomorphic creature decreases. If the base creatures Strength score is below 4, treat it as 4 before adjusting for size.

An anthropomorphic creature's racial ability modifiers for wisdom and charisma can be determined by the score itself. If the score is below 10, the creature has a -2 to that ability score. If the score is above ten, the creature has a +2 to that ability score.
The racial intelligence modifier is always +0 unless the base creature’s Intelligence score is lower than 2 or the base creature is mindless (it has a “-“ or "Ø" instead of an intelligence score). In this case the anthropomorphic creature has a -2 to that ability. If the base creature’s intelligence score is above 3, the anthropomorphic creature gets +2 to intelligence.

Skills
An anthropomorphic creature retains any racial skill bonuses of the base creature.

Feats
An anthropomorphic creature loses all feats of the original form, gaining feats as per the normal method of gaining Hit Dice.

Challenge Rating
Equal to Level Adjustment (see below).

Alignment
Usually TN.

Advancement
By character class. Anthropomorphic creatures do not advance by racial hit dice.

Level Adjustment
+0, modified by the following:

+1 for each extra pair of arms. +1 for Large size. +1 for each 2 points of total ability modifier above +0. +1 for natural armor greater than +2. +1 for a fly or burrow speed. +1 for each two daily uses of spell-like abilities. +1 for more than four extraordinary abilities.

[FlyMolo]

...Mr. Toad, Glenn Rogue!

...I do hope people here have read The Wind In The Willows...

I loved that book! found and read it yesterday, actually. Badger has levels in barbarian.