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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    Ok so a friend and me have had some questions about Girallon arms and the feat multi weapon fighting.

    Chakra Bind (Totem)

    You gain four claws that you can use as natural weapons,
    dealing 1d4 points of damage with each claw. You can make
    a single claw attack as a primary attack, using your full attack
    bonus and adding your Strength bonus on your damage roll.
    You can make up to three additional claw attacks as secondary
    attacks, following either a primary claw attack or an attack
    with a weapon. These secondary attacks have a –5 penalty
    on the attack rolls and apply half your Strength bonus on
    damage. If you have a shield in your off hand, you cannot
    make any secondary claw attacks.
    Every point of essentia you invest in your girallon arms
    grants you a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and
    damage rolls with your claw attacks.

    Multiweapon Fighting

    Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands.

    Normal

    A creature without this feat takes a —6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a —10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160 of the Player's Handbook.

    So with my 2 totemist/ 3warlock his attack is Primary +7 Secondary +7+7+7. My BAB is 3 my STR is 18 which is a +4 bonus. Does this all work? My friend says that without multiweapon fighting there should be negatives and even with it there should be negatives but lesser negatives. We have brought this problem to the play ground to see what it's opinion is.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    AmberVael's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    If I'm reading what you're saying right, then I believe the difficulty is that you're conflating two different sets of rules. Specifically, how using multiple natural weapons works, and how using multiple manufactured weapons works.

    Girallon Arms grants you four natural attacks, and follows the natural attack rules. When you have an entity with multiple natural attacks, they have one primary natural attack which attacks at full attack bonus, and all the rest of their natural attacks are secondary and suffer a -5. These are the rules that the Girallon Arms chakra bind is citing. You can also find these rules here or on page 312 of the Monster Manual I.

    Multiweapon Fighting, however, covers making multiple attacks with manufactured weapons, and so basically works the same as Two-Weapon Fighting. The Multiweapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties on your natural attacks at all- you wouldn't benefit from it in the least. Your attack routine would still be +7/+2/+2/+2.

    If you wish to reduce the penalties on your secondary natural attacks, you should instead be looking at the feats multiattack and improved multiattack, which do apply to fighting with natural weapons, and would make your attack routine +7/+5/+5/+5 and +7/+7/+7/+7 respectively.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Necroticplague's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    Multiweapon Fighting is irrelevant, since these are natural attacks. It should be +7 for the first (as a primary natural attack), then +2 for the rest (as secondary). This penalty can be decreased to -2 with the Multiattack feat, making it +7 for first, then +5 for rest.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    I read somewhere that multiweapon works with natural weapons. But I may have been mistaken.

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    Necroticplague's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by keeper2161 View Post
    I read somewhere that multiweapon works with natural weapons. But I may have been mistaken.
    Don't know where you read that, but you are mistaken. Multiweapon is for, say, wielding 3 swords. Multiattack is for using 4 claws.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    Yeah and I thank you two for pointing out my mistake and providing me with the two feats.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiweapon Fighting Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by keeper2161 View Post
    I read somewhere that multiweapon works with natural weapons. But I may have been mistaken.
    As AmberVael and Necroticplague have pointed out, Multi-Weapon Fighting works whenever you have three or more hands and all those hands are wielding manufactured weapons. The penalties only apply to your primary and offhand weapons. In general, natural weapons can't be used with the TWF or MWF rules (although there are a couple exceptions).

    Natural weapons have special rules: they can only attack once per round, and they are either primary or secondary attacks. This generally prevents the primary natural weapon from using TWF/MWF, because you don't get iteratives with it, and if a natural weapon isn't primary, then it becomes a secondary attack: -5 attack penalty, and only 1/2 Str bonus on damage. The TWF/MWF penalties and the secondary attack penalties are completely separate, and don't affect each other.

    However, you can *combine* manufactured weapons and natural weapons. This is a little difficult with Girallon Arms because your claws would presumably be wielding weapons, and thus should not be available to make claw attacks. (Technically, there is no actual written rule that says a claw wielding a weapon can't also attack as a claw, but basic common sense generally says otherwise.) There are two weapons you can use that don't involve claws: unarmed strike and armor spikes. If you take Improved Unarmed Strike, you can use that as your primary iterative attack. Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic) can be used to add IUS. Armor spikes cost 50 GP and are light martial weapons, so they work well as offhand weapons. Netcutter spikes (150 GP, Races of the Wild) are even better: +4 circumstance bonus to get out of any nets/webs/entangle effects. If you combine unarmed strike with armor spikes and four claw attacks, you'd get something like:

    unarmed -2/armor spikes -2/claw#1 -5/claw#2 -5/claw#3 -5/claw#4 -5

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