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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    So what is every ones call on the flavor use of Prestidigitation with poison?

    So you have some poison and you make it taste like chicken.

    Does the person eating it get a save? Is it save to negate the poison? Like they would ''taste through'' the fake flavor and taste the real poison and spit it out.

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    If they failed the save and got poisoned, I'd give them a Will to disbelieve.

    Though that implies that the poison has a strong enough taste to require the darned spell. Even then, I doubt many people would go "Hey, my stew is slightly bitter. Must be poison!"
    Unless they're paranoid, of course.
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Stella View Post
    It could be argued that the spell allows for a change in Target based upon the text which allows the spell to "color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round," but this text does not make clear whether the area being cleaned actually moves, or if the spell only creates a fixed 1-foot cube "dishwasher" area
    I think the description makes it very clear.

    Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour
    It then goes on to give some examples and cleaning something in a 1 ft area is one of the examples of the various tricks you can do, once per round (presumably because you have to use an action each time), for an hour. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your POV, you have to make it happen with actions each round, but you can do that anywhere within range. And that's consistent with your interpretation that floating objects fall when you stop concentrating. So does the "dishwasher" effect.
    Last edited by Dalebert; 2014-09-15 at 06:57 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    So what is every ones call on the flavor use of Prestidigitation with poison?

    So you have some poison and you make it taste like chicken.

    Does the person eating it get a save? Is it save to negate the poison? Like they would ''taste through'' the fake flavor and taste the real poison and spit it out.
    I'd probably require a Craft:Cooking roll to adequately flavor something to the point that the presence of poison was wholly disguised. Since this is theoretically something one could do without magic, I would give a +2 Circumstance bonus for using Prestidigitation, as well as permitting it to be done without the tools, time, and ingredients to specially prepare the concoction. It would be opposed by some sort of perception-based check; I'd probably allow Survival or Profession: Taste Tester or anything of the sort oppose it. Maybe Heal or even Spot (I'd find it harder to justify Listen, even though both are inappropriate). (In PF, I'd allow Perception, since that's more generic than Spot or Listen.)

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    I'd probably allow Survival or Profession: Taste Tester or anything of the sort oppose it
    Bizarrely enough, I remember reading an obscure source recently that stated that one must make a spot check to notice an ingested poison in a food. Might have been a Dragon Mag.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    Bizarrely enough, I remember reading an obscure source recently that stated that one must make a spot check to notice an ingested poison in a food. Might have been a Dragon Mag.
    Wow, now that sounds strange though I can see the logic.
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Profession: Taste Tester
    I was under the impression that someone who tested food for poison didn't detect it so much by tasting it, but by dying from it. Makes it a bit of a "short-lived" career, eh?
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadline View Post
    I was under the impression that someone who tested food for poison didn't detect it so much by tasting it, but by dying from it. Makes it a bit of a "short-lived" career, eh?
    Probably! But I imagine if you live long enough to gain a level or two, you might just learn to sense them before swallowing.

    I mean, false positives are going to be tricky to prove, unless you work for a tyrant who likes to force-feed people poison and/or there's a strong suspect for who the culprit is, so you could even afford to spit out food that you think is even slightly questionable and declare that your finely-honed senses have detected poison within.

    How many potentates paranoid enough to have a taste tester are going to call him a liar and eat the food anyway?

    (Beware the Detect Poison spell, though. Honestly, anybody who can afford a taste tester might be able to afford a 1st level wizard or sorcerer or cleric or even bard with Detect Poison known. And it'll be more reliable, with less wait time, and less need to have your food poked through by somebody else before you get to eat it.)

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Another poster already said this, but it bears repeating: Prestidigitation specifies that YOU can perform EFFECTS, not that it is cast upon a target.
    You're putting to much emphasis on the word effects and are ignoring a lot of other text in the spell description. You can perform effects simply means that the spell can do more than one thing. Effects, plural = more than one effect can be achieved by this spell. It does not mean that one casting of the spell can achieve everything described as being possible, nor that it can achieve multiple instances of the single effect chosen in a single casting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prestidigitation
    The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.
    Slowly lifting one pound is a "severe limitation." There's nothing in the spell which suggests that you can lift that one pound object, leave it hanging in the air which is still that one pound object being lifted even if it is no longer being moved, and then lift another one pound object as well. The "one pound" is a set limit called out quite clearly in the spell description, and also backed up by the general limitation of being a minor effect with severe limitations.

    So, no. You can't get your cloud of floating daggers. That is a direct violation of the limitations described right in the spell description. At best you can lift one pound at a time, moving one object and then another, but not having more than one pound under the effect of the spell at any time. The one pound limit is a limit which cannot be exceeded, per the RAW. And I still don't think that a DM who rules that the spell can only move the one pound of material initially selected, or who rules that the 1-foot cube area for cleaning, dying, or soiling items is fixed in place as per the RAW for spell Area and requires the caster or others to move items into and out of for the spell to effect items beyond those which were originally in that 1-foot cube area is out of line with their interpretation of the RAW. "Minor effects with severe limitations" gives the DM all the leeway to limit the effect of Prestidigitation that she needs.

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Here's a simple question: when it says that you can slowly lift, what kind of movement speed qualifies as "slow"?

    Assuming that it can move objects omnidirectionaly (the sorting function strongly suggests so), one should be able to use it to move oneself around while levitating at the above-questioned "slow" speed (assuming one accepts that levitating qualifies one to weigh less than 1 lb).
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    Here's a simple question: when it says that you can slowly lift, what kind of movement speed qualifies as "slow"?

    Assuming that it can move objects omnidirectionaly (the sorting function strongly suggests so), one should be able to use it to move oneself around while levitating at the above-questioned "slow" speed (assuming one accepts that levitating qualifies one to weigh less than 1 lb).
    Lifting is not the same as levitating.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Specifically, the effect is to lift up to 1 lb. of material at a time. Effects remain in place for the whole duration. Once lifted, they stay lifted until something changes that condition. It is arguable per the RAW that they actually stay up indefinitely because movement is one of those things that stays in place even after the duration is over, but one can also argue that that movement did stay in place, but gravity took back over.

    As for putting emphasis in the wrong place, I'm not sure how you can read, "Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour," and conclude that you can only perform one simple magical effect for that whole hour. It explicitly uses the plural, and does so after specifying that you can use multiple effects once you've cast the spell. For it to be restricted to one effect, it would have to be worded something like, "Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform one of a number of simple magical effects for 1 hour. Choose the effect from among..."

    But it doesn't. It says you can perform effects, plural, for one hour after you cast the spell.

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    Here's a simple question: when it says that you can slowly lift, what kind of movement speed qualifies as "slow"?

    Assuming that it can move objects omnidirectionaly (the sorting function strongly suggests so), one should be able to use it to move oneself around while levitating at the above-questioned "slow" speed (assuming one accepts that levitating qualifies one to weigh less than 1 lb).


    Movement Rate of 1 would be slow....

    And how does a levitating person move with Prestidigitation? A person is not an object. The spell levitate does not a person an object, nor does it make them weightless. It does not effect weight at all...

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It is arguable per the RAW that they actually stay up indefinitely because movement is one of those things that stays in place even after the duration is over, but one can also argue that that movement did stay in place, but gravity took back over.
    I actually made that very argument earlier in this thread somewhere. To sum up--you use a trick to move something from one place to another. As it says, that's an essentially instantaneous effect that doesn't wear off in an hour. (Imagine moving a glass across the table. It's not going to slide back in place an hour later.) When you move something upward, it's now say 2 feet above the table. The effect then ends. Moving something has no duration so it falls.

    Common sense says you could continue concentrating to hold it there, essentially the same trick as moving it, but you need to spend an action each round to do so. That's if you're being strict. I added that in the game I'm DMing, I have no problem with sticking something in place, even in mid-air, and allowing that to last an hour. You can allow whatever you want as DM. The spell is written to allow for broad interpretation and that could be handy but I don't think it's game-breaking.
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Lifting is not the same as levitating.
    And how does a levitating person move with Prestidigitation? A person is not an object. The spell levitate does not a person an object, nor does it make them weightless. It does not effect weight at all...
    Sorry, should have worded more clearly. My scenario presumes that the creature in question is already levitating due to some spell or effect. When moving that creature with Prestidigitation, I was presuming that the targeting problem would be circumvented by moving a securely attached piece of equipment (e.g. armor) or -rather uncomfortably- its hair (which is dead protein, and thus technically an object).

    From a RAW perspective, I do suppose that levitating -while effectively equating to being unbound by gravity and thus having no weight- is not the same as having no weight in game terms, as weight is a rather constant property for items. As such, I can see the argument that even if something is levitating, it can not be affected by Prestidigitation if it's listed weight exceeds 1 lb. A rather stingy argument in my opinion, but it's valid.

    To amend my scenario in response, I go back to the above-mentioned circumvention of the "1 lb object restriction", using a negligible-weight object to push or pull at the levitating creature with 1lb equivalent force. Whether 1 lb of force is sufficient to move a levitating creature is a physics problem, which does not bode well for a D&D debate. While levitating, the creature would be subject to its own inertia and friction from air.

    Is 1 lb of force sufficient to overcome these? If yes, then 2 question remain. A: Is it disputed that prestidigitation can exert omnidirectional force? I believe that the Gather function from Tome & Blood demonstrates that it can. B: How fast would this propulsion via prestidigitation be? I severely doubt that 'slow' has a numerical definition in the rules....
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    I don't know how much RAW can be provided as an answer here but I would probably allow nudging along someone who is levitating by using prestidigitation at a rate of 5 feet a round. Alternatively though it simply might not be possible which is probably more likely the correct RAW response.
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I've often wondered: would changing the TEXTURE of the food be within Prestidigitation's power, too? So you could have your tasteless mass not just taste like steak, but feel like it in your mouth?
    I don't see a clause regarding texture, just taste, so offhand i would say no.

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    So what is every ones call on the flavor use of Prestidigitation with poison?

    So you have some poison and you make it taste like chicken.

    Does the person eating it get a save? Is it save to negate the poison? Like they would ''taste through'' the fake flavor and taste the real poison and spit it out.
    Aren't most ingested poisons either flavorless or pleasant/inoffensive anyway (e.g. almonds)? You'd be a pretty bad poisoner if you engineered something designed to be eaten or drunk and made it taste like arse.
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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Aren't most ingested poisons either flavorless or pleasant/inoffensive anyway (e.g. almonds)? You'd be a pretty bad poisoner if you engineered something designed to be eaten or drunk and made it taste like arse.
    If you're trying to be sneaky, you pick one of those. There are many poisons that take time to act also, hours or even days to finish the job, though I don't think D&D or PF accounts for those. You'd think that if someone were trying to be sneaky, they'd want to distance the death itself from the act of poisoning and hopefully be long gone when it happens. But I guess you run the risk of someone discovering the antidote. Sometimes the symptoms are hard to distinguish from other ailments though.

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    For instance, there's that plant that makes you unable to extract nutrients from your food and you slowly starve to death.


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    I'd say I don't know why they didn't use something a little less fast-acting on Joffrey but I know the answer. It would be less dramatic and therefore less satisfying.
    If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalebert View Post
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    For instance, there's that plant that makes you unable to extract nutrients from your food and you slowly starve to death.
    What's this one called?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalebert View Post
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    I'd say I don't know why they didn't use something a little less fast-acting on Joffrey but I know the answer. It would be less dramatic and therefore less satisfying.
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    It wasn't any slower in the novel; Littlefinger wanted Joffry dead before he could do any more harm, and the confusion provided a perfect opportunity to spirit Sansa away.

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    Default Re: DM's Call: Prestidigitation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    What's this one called?
    I don't remember. I think I watched it on Netflix. It may still be there. It's not a bad movie.
    If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?

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