Path of War now out! What do you like?

[Lord_Gareth]

Please mention Rallying Presence, too.


Traditions are cool, though they could stand to be slightly less organizations and slightly more traditions. Also, hoping for Piercing Lance tradition.

They were called orgs at first, Tradition was a naming thing internal dev requested. Afraid it's not changing, but they are, and always were, intended to be organizations.

[Powerdork]

Strictly speaking, by Word of Paizo, you can't get [Ability] mod to the same roll more than once.

Actually, I'd love to see a page number from the Core Rulebook, or other relevant book, so I can see this for myself. I wasn't aware of that rule.

[Snowbluff]

They were called orgs at first, Tradition was a naming thing internal dev requested. Afraid it's not changing, but they are, and always were, intended to be organizations.

If that's the case, can we get some that are... traditions. Like things we don't need an organization for. Maybe for supernatural schools?

[ghanjrho]

Actually, I'd love to see a page number from the Core Rulebook, or other relevant book, so I can see this for myself. I wasn't aware of that rule.

It came up in discussions regarding gunslingers with Trench Fighter 3 dips grabbing double DEX to damage. I'm not sure if it was ever formally FAQ'd, but that's where you'll find it.

EDIT: did some digging and found this post. It has links to some of JJ's posts Re: this
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pq63?Sidestep-Secret-Natures-Whispers-Osyluths#18

[Seerow]

It came up in discussions regarding gunslingers with Trench Fighter 3 dips grabbing double DEX to damage. I'm not sure if it was ever formally FAQ'd, but that's where you'll find it.

EDIT: did some digging and found this post. It has links to some of JJ's posts Re: this
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pq63?Si...rs-Osyluths#18

So another one of Paizo's secret unwritten rules?

Edit: Okay read the reasoning in the links in the link, it seems it's using an... interesting interpretation of the bonus type rules to say adding a stat to something is an untyped bonus. That much is reasonable. It then uses the rule that untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack, which I find more dubious, because the source in question isn't "dex mod", dex mod controls the size of the bonus. The source of the bonus is the feats providing the bonus, which are clearly different feats.

Edit2: Also it means that PoW could in theory completely sidestep the issue by making something a specific type of bonus. For example if you had a feat that adds an insight bonus to CMB equal to dex modifier, it would stack with Weapon Finesse, per the reasoning being used. Whether the PoW devs actually want to do that is less certain, and probably leans towards no. But the point is that ruling can be worked around if for some reason it is decided the ability to stack an ability modifier multiple times is both balanced and desired.

[Lord_Gareth]

If that's the case, can we get some that are... traditions. Like things we don't need an organization for. Maybe for supernatural schools?

Can you expand as to the nature of this request?

[malonkey1]

Can you expand as to the nature of this request?

I imagine Snowbluff means something like the classic fictional martial artist Monks. They're organized, in a sense, but they're not necessarily connected into any kind of network or organization, so a Duck-Bear Karate Dojo in Village A may teach the same style as the Duck-Bear Karate Dojo in Village B, but the two have nothing to do with each other (or may even regard each other as enemies!).

[Snowbluff]

Indeed.

Can you expand as to the nature of this request?

I'd like to add that you could be taught by ghosts as a tradition! OOooooOOOOooh!

That and options like sacred texts, individual masters, etc. I mean, as long as you're stuck with "Traditions," you might as well roll with it, right?

[Greenish]

Edit2: Also it means that PoW could in theory completely sidestep the issue by making something a specific type of bonus.

Well, Unbreakable is a Luck bonus, Rallying Presence is a Morale bonus, and Force of Personality is untyped. The problem is that the latter specifies that it does not stack with anything that would grant Cha to Will save, such as the two former.

[Lord_Gareth]

The thing is, the system I've presented represents membership in organizations that have tangible, ongoing benefits. Simply learning at the same school...sort of doesn't? I mean, you can be a student of the fabled Stained Glass Knight all you want, if there's no ongoing benefit for being able to namedrop her or otherwise be related to her then she doesn't qualify as a Tradition. And most of the things I can think of - specialized training, for instance - can be represented through feats, maneuver selection, or a potential upcoming Trait.

[Anlashok]

Well, Unbreakable is a Luck bonus, Rallying Presence is a Morale bonus, and Force of Personality is untyped. The problem is that the latter specifies that it does not stack with anything that would grant Cha to Will save, such as the two former.

Emphasis here. The isuse isn't Paizo's secret non-errata that says you cant get a bonus from an ability modifier twice, but Force of Personality explicitly saying anything else that gives +Cha to will saves doesn't stack.

Force of Personality (Ex): At 3rd level, the warlord’s forceful personality and bold, headstrong nature assist him in resisting the influence of others. Where others use personal serenity, awareness of the world around them, or plain old sensibility, the warlord gets by with endless nerve. The warlord may add his Charisma modifier in addition to his Wisdom modifier to determine his Will save bonus. If the character is ever able to add his Charisma modifier to his Will save through use of another ability (for example. the paladin’s divine grace) he may only add his Charisma modifier once to his Will save.

Bold for emphasis

[Snowbluff]

The thing is, the system I've presented represents membership in organizations that have tangible, ongoing benefits. Simply learning at the same school...sort of doesn't? I mean, you can be a student of the fabled Stained Glass Knight all you want, if there's no ongoing benefit for being able to namedrop her or otherwise be related to her then she doesn't qualify as a Tradition. And most of the things I can think of - specialized training, for instance - can be represented through feats, maneuver selection, or a potential upcoming Trait.

Rebuttal: The travelogue. Still does stuff even if all of the other members die, AFAICT. A lot of the other ones have bonuses that don't seem to be attached to organization members, too.

Supernatural option: Ghosts my master summoned that do stuff. (Su) Also teaches Veiled Moon.

I'm just spitballin' here.

[Greenish]

And most of the things I can think of - specialized training, for instance - can be represented through feats, maneuver selection, or a potential upcoming Trait.

I imagine people wish it would be represented with, you know, access to a discipline. Especially when the archetypes and traditions seem to set the precedent that you can't just swap your disciplines willy nilly.

[Lord_Gareth]

I imagine people wish it would be represented with, you know, access to a discipline. Especially when the archetypes and traditions seem to set the precedent that you can't just swap your disciplines willy nilly.

Hence speaking of potential upcoming trait.

[Snowbluff]

You mean changing a whole school with a trait? I don't know about that. Traits are kind of... well, they're minutia. I feel like it should be more substantial than that. Not to mention Bladecaster/Battle Templar already have a trait locked down with Magical Knack. I know this all sounds weird, considering how fine character and school customization sounds with traitsfeatstraditionmaneuversskillsreligion.

Hm... individual maneuvers via traits may be interesting.

Quick question, now that I thought of it: Does DSP have Practiced Spellcaster or an equivalent?

[Greenish]

You mean changing a whole school with a trait? I don't know about that. Traits are kind of... well, they're minutia.

Well, some of them are pretty potent, and I don't feel like there should be very large cost on just swapping one discipline for another. The main price you pay, after all, is losing the access to one of your old schools.

[DarkSonic1337]

I think an initiator level version of practiced spellcaster might be a little too strong, given that IL governs not only how strong your maneuvers are, but also what level maneuvers you can learn. It would be like if practiced spellcaster allowed you to learn higher level spells.

[Snowbluff]

I don't mean an IL version. I'm playing in a DSP game and I want to know if they have a feat like that. It's a bit OT.

Well, some of them are pretty potent, and I don't feel like there should be very large cost on just swapping one discipline for another. The main price you pay, after all, is losing the access to one of your old schools.

All other forms of swapping schools have the same drawback. The only problem with this method is that it overlaps with existing needs and ignores the present and agreeable Org/Trad system.

[Greenish]

The only problem with this method is that it overlaps with existing needs and ignores the present and agreeable Org/Trad system.

What "existing needs"? And why shouldn't there be multiple ways of trading out schools (spoilers, there already are).

Traditions grant benefits beyond trading out a discipline at no cost, but tie up your fluff. Trait makes you pay for merely trading out a discipline. Archetypes trade lots of stuff for lots of other stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Meant to put existing options. And there are already a ton of ways of getting other schools, as far as I can tell. My complaint is that it squishes trait options.

You get fluff with both traits and trads, so that is so weird a complain I can't help but be confused.

[Greenish]

My complaint is that it squishes trait options.

So, it's the opportunity cost you object to? That swapping schools is not worth a trait when other options exist?

You get fluff with both traits and trads, so that is so weird a complain I can't help but be confused.

I didn't mean it as a complaint. Traits tend to reflect on your backstory, not tie you up in an existing organisation with code of conduct and vows and all. One has far more implications than the other during game.

[Snowbluff]

So, it's the opportunity cost you object to? That swapping schools is not worth a trait when other options exist?

Yep, to a degree. See what I said earlier about the gish classes. Expanding the core traditions would be more effective.

Seriously, it's comprised of many parts. If opportunity cost was the only problem, then you would not hear from me.

I didn't mean it as a complaint. Traits tend to reflect on your backstory, not tie you up in an existing organisation with code of conduct and vows and all. One has far more implications than the other during game.

Again, the travelers. I might never see another one of them. Heck, it's 1/2 of the reason I chose it for Dame Pimpington. Not to mention you pretty much have to write the organization into your background anyway, and they may never show up in your game. It's just like traits in a lot of ways.

[Sartharina]

Emphasis here. The isuse isn't Paizo's secret non-errata that says you cant get a bonus from an ability modifier twice, but Force of Personality explicitly saying anything else that gives +Cha to will saves doesn't stack.

Except the Unbreakable gambit doesn't give +CHA to the will save - it gives a morale bonus equal to the Charisma modifier, but it is not the charisma modifier itself.

[Greenish]

Except the Unbreakable gambit doesn't give +CHA to the will save - it gives a morale bonus equal to the Charisma modifier, but it is not the charisma modifier itself.

1) Unbreakable is Luck bonus, not morale and 2) it specifically says you add your Charisma modifier to the roll:

While performing a gambit, the warlord may add his Charisma modifier to the d20 check(s) to aid in accomplishing the gambit as a luck bonus.

(Emphasis mine.)

[Sartharina]

1) Unbreakable is Luck bonus, not morale and 2) it specifically says you add your Charisma modifier to the roll: (Emphasis mine.)

Oh, wait - yeah, it doesn't apply to that, unfortunately.

[Snowbluff]

Would making the bonuses all dodge bonuses work? Or do you loose those when FF?

[Greenish]

Would making the bonuses all dodge bonuses work? Or do you loose those when FF?

No, because the bonus type is not the issue, and yes, you would lose dodge bonuses when you lose Dex to AC (such as when flat-footed without Uncanny Dodge).

[Sartharina]

No, because the bonus type is not the issue, and yes, you would lose dodge bonuses when you lose Dex to AC (such as when flat-footed without Uncanny Dodge).

It sort of is, though, because an Attribute Bonus (Though never called out as such) is different from a luck/morale/dodge bonus that happens to equal an attribute bonus. (The problem being that Secondary Attribute bonuses were never codified as such)

[Snowbluff]

Hm... then that is major issue.

I'm not even angry anymore. It's like... I just feel content. Paizo is like hypothermia.

[Greenish]

It sort of is, though, because an Attribute Bonus (Though never called out as such) is different from a luck/morale/dodge bonus that happens to equal an attribute bonus. (The problem being that Secondary Attribute bonuses were never codified as such)

All three abilities in question are already different bonus types. Changing the bonus types wouldn't solve the issue because bonus type is not the issue.

The issue is not any wide-ranging basic rule, it is the specific wording on a specific ability: Force of Personality.


(That ability always makes me think of this.)