Path of War now out! What do you like?

[nolongerchaos]

I'm rather liking the Warder and the Battle Templar, particularly as future options for an Inquisitor I'm playing. However I had some questions about them and this looks like the best place for answers.

Based on my reading, the Battle Templar's Ordained Knight ability only progresses the divine class abilities the character already possess, so an Inquisitor4/Warder1/Battle TemplarX would get to stack their BT levels with Inquisitor for the purposes of determining the number of Bane rounds, however they would not actually gain the Bane ability until they actually take that 5th level of Inquisitor, correct?

Similarly, while not specifically mentioned, I assume Ordained Knight progresses Inquisitors' Judgment ability (please correct me if this is not the case). If this is true, what then becomes of the Second Judgment ability, for despite being an extension of an ability being progressed by O.K., it is actually a distinctly separate ability. Based on my conclusion for the Bane ability, this too would have to wait until the appropriate Inquisitor level has been reached. Is this also correct?

And finally, if my character were a Warder using the Black Thorn Knight Tradition to swap Golden Lion for Black Seraph, if he took a level of Battle Templar, would Golden Lion be thrust back upon him, or would he be able to continue to swap it for Black Seraph?

[Snowbluff]

Hi, it's me again.

I'm going to come out and say why I complained about Awakened Blade (AKA the 30%) and Blade Caster (I only like it because I've figured how to abuse it, it's not very good normally) is that I have good grip on what they do. The Battle Templar is hard to gauge against it's contemporaries because the effect is vague and I am not an expert on PF Domains/etc.

As an aside, if being vague like this is okay, my homebrew ToB/PoW class that scales a team bonus (Auras from Marshal/Dragon Shaman, Bardic Music, and stuff like that) can just be vague. Hoewever, I think a sidebar would be better for this. Like, the Table reads "+1 leader class bonus", and the Class Feature reads "You count as one level higher for a class feature that gives a bonus to your allies," and a sidebar that describes a list of what it affects (both RAW and RAI), and guidelines for a DM to add later features.

[deuxhero]

Noticed the (oddly named) Barroom Brawler feat in ACG that gives martial flexibility 1/day. Sadly not actually martial flexibility and incompatible with Extra Martial Flexibility, but it's nice to have to be able to pull out manuvers you don't know.

[Feint's End]

Hey I was wondering your opinion on the supernatural disciplines. What do you guys think is the overall better discipline. Silver Crane, Black Seraph or Veiled Moon? And in which order would you rate them?

As I see it Silver Crane is very powerful from the get go (the level 1 stance is pretty insane) but Veiled Moon gets better and better the higher the levels get. Black Seraph seems kind of weak compared to what Silver Crane gives you (easy compare those 2 because they are alignment opposites).

I personally think Veiled Moon offers the most utility but in combat Silver Crane takes the crown. Thoughts?

edit: also Veiled Moon is kind of campaign dependant. In a ethereal heavy campaign it's basically mandatory)

I'm rather liking the Warder and the Battle Templar, particularly as future options for an Inquisitor I'm playing. However I had some questions about them and this looks like the best place for answers.

Based on my reading, the Battle Templar's Ordained Knight ability only progresses the divine class abilities the character already possess, so an Inquisitor4/Warder1/Battle TemplarX would get to stack their BT levels with Inquisitor for the purposes of determining the number of Bane rounds, however they would not actually gain the Bane ability until they actually take that 5th level of Inquisitor, correct?

Similarly, while not specifically mentioned, I assume Ordained Knight progresses Inquisitors' Judgment ability (please correct me if this is not the case). If this is true, what then becomes of the Second Judgment ability, for despite being an extension of an ability being progressed by O.K., it is actually a distinctly separate ability. Based on my conclusion for the Bane ability, this too would have to wait until the appropriate Inquisitor level has been reached. Is this also correct?

And finally, if my character were a Warder using the Black Thorn Knight Tradition to swap Golden Lion for Black Seraph, if he took a level of Battle Templar, would Golden Lion be thrust back upon him, or would he be able to continue to swap it for Black Seraph?

In order of appearance:
-Bring it on

-Correct. It progresses the feature but doesn't actually give it to you

-Also correct. The second Judgement isn't part of the Judgement classfeature but rather it's own feature gained at 8th level

-This is a weird case. Yes you should be able to. The martial traditions swap out one of your disciplines. It's not limited to being only possible at one point in time meaning you can swap out later too. Seems legit.

[PsyBomb]

The upper stances of Black Seraph are hard to beat, though, as are their charge maneuvers (no AoO or AC penalty? Winning!). Veiled Moon is crazy good, though.

[deuxhero]

Veiled Moon is heads and shoulders above Silver Crane for out of combat utility.

[Feint's End]

The upper stances of Black Seraph are hard to beat, though, as are their charge maneuvers (no AoO or AC penalty? Winning!). Veiled Moon is crazy good, though.

Hmm good point. Just reread some of them and they are nice. But I feel like Primal Fury already does that pretty well. Black Seraph and Silver Crane are hard to measure against each other because they do quite different things.

Veiled Moon seems to be the new t3 discipline. It offers so much things for out of combat.

[malonkey1]

Noticed the (oddly named) Barroom Brawler feat in ACG that gives martial flexibility 1/day. Sadly not actually martial flexibility and incompatible with Extra Martial Flexibility, but it's nice to have to be able to pull out manuvers you don't know.

Hm...A Brawler might make a pretty decent pseudo-initiator...Hrmmmmmmm. (*strokes spontaneously grown beard*)

[PsyBomb]

Hm...A Brawler might make a pretty decent pseudo-initiator...Hrmmmmmmm. (*strokes spontaneously grown beard*)

Brawler can arguably spontaneously sprout maneuvers and stances via Versatility as long as they boost Melee attacks. My table plays that way, anyway, with the Paragon Surge ruling in full effect.

[malonkey1]

Wait, that might not work. Readying maneuvers takes 10 minutes, and Martial Flexibility lasts only 1 minute. Is there any way to get around this? Do you necessarily need access to your maneuvers to ready them? Or is this whole idea torpedo'd?

[PsyBomb]

Wait, that might not work. Readying maneuvers takes 10 minutes, and Martial Flexibility lasts only 1 minute. Is there any way to get around this? Do you necessarily need access to your maneuvers to ready them? Or is this whole idea torpedo'd?

Lightning Recovery feat to ready once as a swift, or grab a stance that doesn't need to be readied

[Prime32]

A feat to make tower shields not suck?! (Remove the attack penalty, maybe let you shield bash with them? A bonus to bull rushes because you're literally a wall running at someone?)

I'd like to see some modifications to the "grant yourself cover" mechanic. Like using it as a move action, or recovering maneuvers while you do it, or letting it affect multiple edges of your space. Letting you shield bash with them would take away some of their distinctiveness, so I'm not a fan of the idea.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I agree with Prime on this; while I could certainly see a shield bash done after a charge with a tower shield (running wall, etc), I would prefer it to be kept as a pure defensive option - just not a kinda bad one.

While we're talking about suggestions, how about an animal companion archetype that lets them effectively use Martial Training without retraining cheese?

Or, y'know, just an animal companion providing archetype for one of the classes and/or an initiator one for Hunter/Ranger.

[master4sword]

Lightning Recovery feat to ready once as a swift, or grab a stance that doesn't need to be readied

Grabbing a stance works, as you can just swift-action enter the stance to use it. Lightning Recovery doesn't, as it recovers a maneuver as a free action immediately after using it, which requires it to be readied (and used) in the first place.

As a free action, after you've use a martial strike, counter, or boost, you may instantly recover that maneuver. You may do this once per day.

[malonkey1]

Mayhaps you might be persuaded to add a feat similar to Adaptive Style? I'd actually like to see that, mostly so my pet Brawler build can flourish, but I question whether it's actually necessary in PoW. It was basically a feat tax for the Swordsage (who honestly could have gotten it for free as a bonus feat without breaking anything) in ToB.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I looked though the PDF, and I have some questions: the maneuvers/stances/whatever are readied at the start of the day, and recharge after every encounter, right? How you supposed to use them outside of combat? My question is more 'what exactly is that system' than 'but RAW when didn't actually read all the rules'.

[master4sword]

I looked though the PDF, and I have some questions: the maneuvers/stances/whatever are readied at the start of the day, and recharge after every encounter, right? How you supposed to use them outside of combat? My question is more 'what exactly is that system' than 'but RAW when didn't actually read all the rules'.

My interpretation is that you just use it (because it's readied) and then immediately recover it afterwards as a standard (since there's no encounter, so it probably won't matter that you spent an action you wouldn't've used anyway to recover it immediately). Just like no one makes you count out exact move actions to walk outside combat, it's a thing that would fall under "just use it".

[Greenish]

Mayhaps you might be persuaded to add a feat similar to Adaptive Style?

I'd guess no, since they already used the mechanic for Warder's Adaptive Tactics, and that costs a mark.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'll just leave this here

[ErrantX]

Mayhaps you might be persuaded to add a feat similar to Adaptive Style? I'd actually like to see that, mostly so my pet Brawler build can flourish, but I question whether it's actually necessary in PoW. It was basically a feat tax for the Swordsage (who honestly could have gotten it for free as a bonus feat without breaking anything) in ToB.

Umm, no.

Sorry, that feat was just all kinds of... no. I knew what it intended to do and it was mostly feat tax for Swordsages.

-X

[IAmTehDave]

Umm, no.

Sorry, that feat was just all kinds of... no. I knew what it intended to do and it was mostly feat tax for Swordsages.

-X

How about a fix for it then? Maybe something like (With cleaner language):

Prerequisites: Ability to recover maneuvers. Initiator level X?
When the martial disciple recovers one or more maneuvers, he may instead decide to swap up to that many readied or expended maneuvers for an equal number of non-readied maneuvers he knows. Those maneuvers are considered to be expended, and can be recovered as normal.
In addition, the time it normally takes you to ready maneuvers is reduced to 1 minute of rest/meditation/practice instead of the normal time as described in your initiator class's description.

That way, you still get the ability to change maneuvers on the fly, but it's costly in terms of actions. Instead of "As a full round action, re-choose and recover all your maneuvers" it becomes "Instead of recovering X maneuvers, you can swap them for other maneuvers. You can then recover THOSE maneuvers next turn"

It's no longer a feat tax, since it's not a better recovery method. Instead it becomes a bit of a safety net for FOMO initiators. You don't have to worry that you're readying the wrong maneuvers, you just have to know that it's action-costly to swap.

Edit: added a line at the end about reducing the cost of out-of-combat maneuver changing, since it stops making sense if you can change 10 maneuvers in 1 minute (10 standard actions, not even counting FRA recovery)

[malonkey1]

Umm, no.

Sorry, that feat was just all kinds of... no. I knew what it intended to do and it was mostly feat tax for Swordsages.

-X

Fair enough. I guess I'll just use Adaptive Style in my PoW games. It's not exactly like ToB and PoW are impossible to reconcile. Still, have to say, loving what's been released, and looking forward to Path of War 2: War Harder. I don't care if it's not the actual title, all sequels have a title following that format in my head.

EDIT: Before you ask, the third installment is always Whatever 3: The Electric Boogaloo.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Theorycrafting a bit on a Zweihander and I came across a few questions that I'd like to see if I could get clarified.
Under Resolving a stance or maneuver:

Attack Rolls: Many maneuvers include an attack of
some kind. All offensive combat actions, even those
that do not deal damage directly (such as bull rush or
trip), are still considered attacks. All maneuvers that
opponents can resist with saving throws, that deal
damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects
are considered attacks.

This left me wondering about some of the Golden Lion strikes, such as Distracting Strike or Kill the Wounded. These have a range of Any Attack, can they be used with a trip or other combat maneuver? If yes, can combat maneuvers with a range of Melee Attack be used with combat maneuvers in place of an attack?

Additionally, Martial Power grants 50% extra temporary HP if wielding any shield. Does a Zweihander Sentinel count as wielding a shield when using a two handed weapon in conjunction with their Armament Shield and/or Zweihander Training class abilities for the purpose of this feat?

Aaaand finally, Kill the Wounded lists Range: Any Attack, but specifically calls out a melee attack in the fluff text. I'd been assuming that these maneuvers functioned with ranged attacks, but just noticed the fluff in there.

[Beowulf DW]

I have a slight question regarding Battle Templar and Oracle. The Ordained Knight class feature mentions unique divine abilities from a previous class, then mentions an Oracle's Curse specifically. What about Oracle's Revelations? Do they fall under the "unique divine abilities" category?

[ErrantX]

How about a fix for it then? Maybe something like (With cleaner language):



That way, you still get the ability to change maneuvers on the fly, but it's costly in terms of actions. Instead of "As a full round action, re-choose and recover all your maneuvers" it becomes "Instead of recovering X maneuvers, you can swap them for other maneuvers. You can then recover THOSE maneuvers next turn"

It's no longer a feat tax, since it's not a better recovery method. Instead it becomes a bit of a safety net for FOMO initiators. You don't have to worry that you're readying the wrong maneuvers, you just have to know that it's action-costly to swap.

Edit: added a line at the end about reducing the cost of out-of-combat maneuver changing, since it stops making sense if you can change 10 maneuvers in 1 minute (10 standard actions, not even counting FRA recovery)

That's not a bad possibility. We may bring in an adaptive style-like feat then, just the old one made my brain hurt so I told it to get off my lawn.

Fair enough. I guess I'll just use Adaptive Style in my PoW games. It's not exactly like ToB and PoW are impossible to reconcile. Still, have to say, loving what's been released, and looking forward to Path of War 2: War Harder. I don't care if it's not the actual title, all sequels have a title following that format in my head.

EDIT: Before you ask, the third installment is always Whatever 3: The Electric Boogaloo.

These are both valid names and receive my support. Thank you!

Theorycrafting a bit on a Zweihander and I came across a few questions that I'd like to see if I could get clarified.
Under Resolving a stance or maneuver:


This left me wondering about some of the Golden Lion strikes, such as Distracting Strike or Kill the Wounded. These have a range of Any Attack, can they be used with a trip or other combat maneuver? If yes, can combat maneuvers with a range of Melee Attack be used with combat maneuvers in place of an attack?

Additionally, Martial Power grants 50% extra temporary HP if wielding any shield. Does a Zweihander Sentinel count as wielding a shield when using a two handed weapon in conjunction with their Armament Shield and/or Zweihander Training class abilities for the purpose of this feat?

Aaaand finally, Kill the Wounded lists Range: Any Attack, but specifically calls out a melee attack in the fluff text. I'd been assuming that these maneuvers functioned with ranged attacks, but just noticed the fluff in there.

I didn't change that to any attack; too broad. But if the maneuver you're doing causes damage, than the attack generally has to do inflict damage as well. That being said... eh? I leave it up to your DM to say. I think it could be good for a lot of them, but I don't see how a disarm could inflict 10d6 points of damage unless you're cutting off the person's arm.

Armament Shield does count for that feat, definitely.

You have to make the melee attack, but an ally can make a melee OR ranged attack to use that.

I have a slight question regarding Battle Templar and Oracle. The Ordained Knight class feature mentions unique divine abilities from a previous class, then mentions an Oracle's Curse specifically. What about Oracle's Revelations? Do they fall under the "unique divine abilities" category?

No, just the Curse. It's the specific abilities listed there; Inquisitor's the only one who gets the OR option.

-X

[Jacob.Tyr]

I didn't change that to any attack; too broad. But if the maneuver you're doing causes damage, than the attack generally has to do inflict damage as well. That being said... eh? I leave it up to your DM to say. I think it could be good for a lot of them, but I don't see how a disarm could inflict 10d6 points of damage unless you're cutting off the person's arm.

Armament Shield does count for that feat, definitely.

You have to make the melee attack, but an ally can make a melee OR ranged attack to use that.
-X

Hrmm, I'll talk to the DM though I like your ruling; Kill The Wounded (no bonus damage on your attack) still makes for some fun tripping options. If I were running a game, I'd be tempted to allow substituting combat maneuvers in for melee attacks as part of a strike. I could see the damage fluffed as hitting your head from the fall from a trip, or a really vicious bullrush etc. Not fully sure I understand how tripping someone with the blade of a scythe doesn't slice their legs badly, to begin with.

Right now eyeing, for level 8:
Primal Warrior Stance,
Tactical Snap,
Disparity Blow,
and Kill The Wounded as pretty solid choices for a Zweihander Sentinel tripping build.
Any Playgrounders see some other good synergies for such a character?


Also debating a build I like to call Just Say No (to armed opponents) based around Extended Defense and Blade-Breaking Counter. Maximize movement, screw acrobatics, just run through your enemies smashing their weapons left and right.

Sunder might make more sense for working in conjunction with Strikes. In those instances you are dealing damage, albeit to a weapon. Greater Sunder just makes it even nicer.

[Psyren]

Possibly dumb question - is there a conversion guide for the ToB disciplines and PrCs? If I wanted to use PoW as a base and bring in the ToB maneuvers, where would each school's stuff go? And did anyone already adjust the ToB PrC and/or feat requirements to fit into PoW?

[Ilorin Lorati]

I don't think there's been one done yet, but I'd certainly like to see one. The disciplines couldn't be all that hard to modify; the primary issue that I'd see would be in the classes themselves.

[Psyren]

I don't think there's been one done yet, but I'd certainly like to see one. The disciplines couldn't be all that hard to modify; the primary issue that I'd see would be in the classes themselves.

The base classes I don't mind as I would likely use the PoW classes as a base. The PrCs could be tricky though.

But mapping the disciplines would probably come first.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In my opinion the associated skills are the main problem concerning disciplines, I don't remember exactly but most of them would be keyed to Acrobatics due the way Paizo folded the skills and Diamond Mind even lost it's associated skills (autohypnosis works, but it "suffers" .that is is a Psionic only skill, at least as I can tell). For Prestige classes I think there wouldn't be much trouble besides adjusting the skill ranks requirement.

As far as mapping disciplines to the new classes I think that giving Devoted Spirit, &Iron Heart->Warder/Zealot, Diamond Mind & White Raven->Warlord and Shadow Hand & Setting Sun->Stalker/Harbringer(Maybe?) could work; Stone Dragon could again be an every-man discipline which everyone can pick, Desert Wind and Tiger claw overlap a bit much with new disciplines so I'm not sure, since Mystic apparently will have an "energy/magical" bent I guess Desert Wind could work for them.