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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Being asked if you know basic information about where your opponent is isn't some cruel trap. To think that it is is simply some kind of weird national insecurity on the part of Americans.
    Sorta going against general consensus there, though. Even the people who, in my view, came into this thread biased against the U.S. have largely agreed that this question was asked for no other reason than to try to make the player and/or the U.S. look bad.

    So if it's a weird national insecurity that we have, we've apparently infected non-Americans with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Just saying that you unfortunately don't because reasons is perfectly valid. A bit disappointed for Slovenians hoping that people cared, but valid. It's getting in a huff about the concept of people even asking that's offensive and the certainty that it obviously has to be a trap to show that Americans are stupid.
    So, yes, you're continuing to say that athletes have an obligation to learn and memorize geographical trivia that is largely irrelevant to their profession.

    Basically any other knowledge of Slovenia would showcase caring more than just being able to find it on a bloody atlas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    And frankly, it's absurd to think that Europeans are constantly lurking and ready to pounce on random Americans to score points and show that Americans are stupid.
    The closest to that so far was where I pointed out that Europeans have been known to sometimes engage in such behavior, not that they constantly do so, and that was just to point out to someone that they were inventing an equivalent behavior in Americans out of wholecloth just to say that Cousins behaved worse than he actually did.

    You may rest assured that I don't think that, so I hope that puts your mind at ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Europeans ask these questions because they're the questions Europeans ask, including of each other and so far I haven't seen anybody except Americans get offended by them.
    Europeans regularly engage in geographical trivia when they encounter one another? Do you all carry around unlabeled maps and atlases with you to engage in this common cultural practice? Is there a smartphone app?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Seriously, Americans, we really aren't obsessed enough over your specialness or intimidated enough by you that we need to make up reasons to insult you, we have lives to lead.
    This thread rather suggests otherwise, unfortunately, given that someone arguably from Europe invented the spectre of Americans having a habit of seeking to trap Europeans into demonstrating their poor geographical knowledge of the U.S. just to try to drag down the player in question.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    No, I don't. But I do think it's an insult and the guy is kind of an ass and being so in an official American capacity. Now the overwhelming majority of Americans in this thread have been quick to immediately jump to the conclusion that it was obviously an insult to ask somebody about the country of their opponent because there was no motive other than European snootiness and trying to fabricate evidence that Americans are stupid. The thread was only ever created based on the assumption that the original question was an insult and neither stumbling English, a poor translation or an inaccurate paraphrase or came in a context and a lot of people, most notably Reverent One, has been quick to say that Slovenia is literally irrelevant and therefore it's perfectly fair to compare it to Alabama, which is a rather heavy insult to Slovenians.

    Overall, the whole thing, both the answer to that question and how the Americans in the thread have reacted to it is pretty insulting, really, as well as quite a good argument that, yes, Americans are insensitive and self-centered. It's nothing to cause a diplomatic incident over, but it is pretty insulting to immediately assume that a non-native English speaker must be so obsessed with your country that he creates a special interview just to make you look bad and then treating them as representative of an entire continent. It is quite insulting to say that a country is completely irrelevant and therefore you shouldn't show the courtesy of at least feigning minimal interest in it. For that matter, it is quite insulting not to even dignify comments about European customs surrounding sports and sports interviews with an answer, instead steadfastedly maintaining your posture of being picked upon in the face of it. For that matter it is pretty insulting to engage in insane hyperbole.

    And, yes, Europeans do in fact expect each other to know what their country is and where it is. Just like the general expectation over here isn't to react to people being curious about whether you know about their country by immediately acting as if it is rude to ask. You don't need an atlas for it, if you don't know, just say that you unfortunately don't instead of getting in a huff.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    I'd say there's a difference between "lying there and taking it" and "descending to their level". A response along the lines of "no, I didn't have a chance to look it up" would have been perfectly acceptable, pretty much honest, maintained the moral high ground, and in no way made him look bad. In turn, he responded with not only the sort of answer the questioner expected, but doubled down on that and gave them more than they were hoping for.

    The best response to a stereotype-fuelled query of "is it true you eat human flesh?" is not "yes, but I bet you don't even know how to cook it" in terms of doing anything to dispel that stereotype.

    Especially if, when the effectiveness of this response is queried, the defence of it from your fellow-countrymen is "it's ok for us to eat people, because they're just like animals anywhere else".

    ***

    When this particular part of the discussion started, it was really about the stereotype (that we all know exists) of Europeans thinking American knowledge of geography is very insular, and whether Cousins's response was helpful in that context.

    Now, for whatever reason, and partly because there's no room for half-measures or subtlety on the internet, we've ended up arguing about whether it's ok for American knowledge of geography to be insular.

    Last edited by Aedilred; 2014-09-11 at 04:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    The thread was only ever created based on the assumption that the original question was an insult and neither stumbling English, a poor translation or an inaccurate paraphrase or came in a context and a lot of people, most notably Reverent One, has been quick to say that Slovenia is literally irrelevant and therefore it's perfectly fair to compare it to Alabama, which is a rather heavy insult to Slovenians.
    This is completely false. I have repeatedly stated that while some of you keep trying to turn this into a debate over political influcence, overall relevance, or what have you, my point remained purely in the sense of measuring someone's geographic knowledge and how easy one location is to locate than another.

    For the record, this event occurred at an open press conference type of thing, where the athlete was talking to multiple reporters. There's no accusation of some conspriacy, just a reporter taking an opportunity to make a common jab at Americans.

    Also,

    For that matter, it is quite insulting not to even dignify comments about European customs surrounding sports and sports interviews with an answer, instead steadfastedly maintaining your posture of being picked upon in the face of it.
    You mean like you did repeatedly in the face of my questions about the matter?

    I'd say there's a difference between "lying there and taking it" and "descending to their level". A response along the lines of "no, I didn't have a chance to look it up" would have been perfectly acceptable, pretty much honest, maintained the moral high ground, and in no way made him look bad.
    Not really, that's likely exactly what the reporter was looking for.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    How is he supposed to come up with landmass-specific trash talk if he doesn't know the first thing about Slovenian geography? If he knew more about Slovenia, Cousins could respond "Pft, your free throw percentage is roughly equivalent to the percent of your nation's territory under some form of ecological protection." The Slovenian player, being a geographically astute European, would know this meant Cousins was implying he only made about 12.5% percent of his free throws. Cousins could go on to add that he's draining threes like Slovenia's landmass is belonging to the black sea basin, leaving the player further stung by the realization that Cousins is implying not only that the Slovene player is missing 87.5% of his free throws, but that Cousins himself is meanwhile successfully scoring from the three-point distance more than four fifths of the time.

    Reeling at his peerless knowledge of geography being turned against him, the Slovene player would be helpless as, seeing him on his heels, Cousins moved in for the finishing blow by saying he thought the Slovene player looked as shaken up as the Adriatic plate. Completely demoralized, the Slovene team would obviously forfeit then and there, with all other nations following suit in fear of the same happening to them. If Cousins had only spent a few minutes on wikipedia, he could have single-handedly seen the United States crowned World Basketball Champions For Ever and Ever.
    /slowclap. Absolutely beautiful.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binks View Post
    /slowclap. Absolutely beautiful.
    Yes, that is one of the highlights of the thread so far.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    This is completely false. I have repeatedly stated that while some of you keep trying to turn this into a debate over political influcence, overall relevance, or what have you, my point remained purely in the sense of measuring someone's geographic knowledge and how easy one location is to locate than another.
    Geographic knowledge is heavily shaped by political influence. Germany is substantially better known that Krasnoyarsk Krai, to the point where I don't think anybody in this thread had ever heard about the latter, which isn't to be confused with the city of Krasnoyarsk, until I searched wikipedia for an extraordinarily large Russian area. This is despite Krasnoyarsk Krai being roughly seven times the size of Germany. And this is completely to be expected, Germany is a distinct entity that matters and has had a huge influence, Krasnoyarsk Krai is an extremely thinly populated tundra and taiga. You cannot discuss geography without taking political developments and significance into account, they shape what's meaningful in a geographical sense. And Alabama doesn't even work in that sense as it is not a naturally occurring feature, but purely a creation of human politics. The rather boxy shape should have tipped you off, you don't get those in nature.

    Also, I'm sorry to disappoint you, even when Europeans are being arrogant towards Americans, it only features geographical knowledge when it happens to come up. Actual European stereotypes are that Americans are self-centered, trigger happy, insensitive and an imperialistic bully. Geographical knowledge only comes up in European arrogance when it is a practical expression of those, because it really isn't a very significant topic to feel superior about. It's kinda like how when Americans are arrogant at Europeans for being weak militarily it isn't about counting fighter planes, but instead about talking about how we're weak pacifists who surrender at the drop of a hat and the fighter planes might just come up as proof of that weakness.

    And like Aedilred says, you don't dispel accusations of being self-centered and insensitive by acting self-centered and insensitive. Even if Slovenia isn't important to you, it's important to Slovenians and they're just as real people worthy of respect as you are.
    Last edited by Terraoblivion; 2014-09-11 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinner View Post
    I'll be honest here. Most Americans probably can't point out a Native American reservation off the top of their heads.
    I'd imagine a fair amount who live near one could at least identify vaguely where it is, though certainly not its exact boundaries. Regardless, though, the point stands that are regarded to at least some degree as sovereign entities and many people view their tribal identity as their nationality, yet I doubt Terraoblivion can tell me where the Iowa reservation is without looking it up. I'd further contend that if one accepts the argument that it is insulting to say Alabama is comparable to Slovenia, it's at least as insulting to say the Iowa nation is not.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Not quite, Slovenia is a sovereign state recognized by the UN, the Iowa nation is, so knowledge of Slovenia is more readily available and there are more contexts where you'll need to know. That said, I do think that if somebody were to have extensive dealings with the Iowa nation, learning where its reservation is would be the polite thing to do and if you have failed to do so, apologizing for it rather than being defiantly proud would be the second best option. Nobody has actually said that Cousin had to know where Slovenia was, just that he shouldn't have acted proud about it and that asking about it was perfectly reasonable, after all so it's the same standard before anybody jumps to point out hypocrisy.

    I do have to ask, though, is it the Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma or the Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska?
    Last edited by Terraoblivion; 2014-09-11 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel View Post
    In This Thread:
    A few Americans (and a few other people from north america) claim that Alabama roughly as geographically notable as Slovenia
    A few Non-Americans claim that Slovenia is politically notable in a way that Alabama is not
    A few people take neither side and argue the relevance of the current discussion



    Clearly not.



    The thing is, he's not. He's explicitly compared it in several different ways (as have you, for that matter). Let's break this down.

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    Arguments for Alabama (in geographical and demographic notability)
    -Landmass (about 8 times as large)
    -GDP (about 3 times as large)
    -Age (on the order of about an order of magnitude older)
    -Population (about 2 times as large)

    Arguments for Slovenia (in political and demographic notability)
    -Sovereign Nation > Province
    -Greater relative political clout in larger governing body
    -Language distinct from its neighbors

    Distinctions Slovenia and Alabama share:
    -Small subdivision of landmass in relation to their respective continents
    -Direct involvement and importance in local wars and conflicts
    -Relatively small involvement and importance in wars on foreign continents
    -Largely independent government that directly answers to a larger governing body

    And that's just off the top of my head, taking into account what's been said in this thread.

    Are they politically comparable? No. Pretty clearly no. Alabama doesn't have a whole lot of political clout in the US (none of the states really do - even California can't manage a veto by itself), and it's only represented in the UN via the US.

    Are they comparable in terms of notability? Sort of. Slovenia is much smaller in physical size than Alabama is (and in many other ways - particularly age), but has the distinction of being a sovereign nation instead of a subdivision of such. I'd say that's a reasonable comparison - but that's my opinion. I can certainly see why some people might think otherwise (in favor of either Alabama or Slovenia).

    Is it reasonable for an athlete to know a lot about either? Pretty much no. Athletes are, first and foremost athletes, and if they're spending more time appeasing reporters and people that cling to stereotypes of foreigners than focusing on their game, then they'll be replaced by someone who puts that effort into the game. They're not supposed to be curious about the places they visit - they're supposed to win the game they were brought to those places to play. Similarly, I wouldn't expect a Slovenian basketball player in Alabama to be able to point out Alabama on a map. It's not relevant at all to their skillset or job.

    Would I expect that sort of knowledge from a diplomat or a visiting politician? Absolutely - that's what their job is. But a basketball player? Not really. They're not really expected to care about where they are when they're not on the court. It wouldn't really matter if they couldn't point out where they were from on a world map - that's not something they need to know for anything that they do on even a semi-regular basis.



    I don't see why it can't be both. I see it as a clever, off-the-cuff retort that also happened to be an arrogant one. Both arguments seem very clear - they just happen to be addressing different premises. That's why there's no perceived agreement; you're no longer arguing about the same thing.
    Thank you, I was going make these points. However you managed to do it better than I was going to.
    However I would like to point out a couple of things.

    A province is an administrative division of a larger political entity. A state is its own political entity that is connected to other states to form a union (at least in the USA). That is why it is “the United States of America” not “America” or anything else.

    If it chose to, Alabama could seek to become politically active in other regions. California sent its governor to China for a trade deal. So it’s possible for a state to have a relationship with a foreign government. I doubt a state could get a seat on the UN Security Council, but still Alabama is its own political entity and it should be treated as such. So the fact that Alabama as a state is strictly speaking less important than a Country is a mute point. Alabama not having a presence on the world stage is a mute point as well since it's made the decision to be represented by the United States of America in foreign policy.

    Secondly the US government is purposefully designed so that no one state (or political branch) can gain too much political power (it’s called checks and balances people), therefore that point of Alabama not being politically significant in its own country is not valid.

    Making the assumption that a state and a province, county, parish, district or any other sort of division of a larger whole is the same is a rather large mistake. So much so that it showcases European ignorance of the American political system. This is the second time I've had to correct people in this very thread. Not only that, it can showcase European arrogance if they are deliberately trying to demean a person from a particular state by bringing it down in importance to the political level of a province, county, parish, district etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    No, I don't. But I do think it's an insult and the guy is kind of an ass and being so in an official American capacity. Now the overwhelming majority of Americans in this thread have been quick to immediately jump to the conclusion that it was obviously an insult to ask somebody about the country of their opponent because there was no motive other than European snootiness and trying to fabricate evidence that Americans are stupid. The thread was only ever created based on the assumption that the original question was an insult and neither stumbling English, a poor translation or an inaccurate paraphrase or came in a context and a lot of people, most notably Reverent One, has been quick to say that Slovenia is literally irrelevant and therefore it's perfectly fair to compare it to Alabama, which is a rather heavy insult to Slovenians.

    Overall, the whole thing, both the answer to that question and how the Americans in the thread have reacted to it is pretty insulting, really, as well as quite a good argument that, yes, Americans are insensitive and self-centered. It's nothing to cause a diplomatic incident over, but it is pretty insulting to immediately assume that a non-native English speaker must be so obsessed with your country that he creates a special interview just to make you look bad and then treating them as representative of an entire continent. It is quite insulting to say that a country is completely irrelevant and therefore you shouldn't show the courtesy of at least feigning minimal interest in it. For that matter, it is quite insulting not to even dignify comments about European customs surrounding sports and sports interviews with an answer, instead steadfastedly maintaining your posture of being picked upon in the face of it. For that matter it is pretty insulting to engage in insane hyperbole.

    And, yes, Europeans do in fact expect each other to know what their country is and where it is. Just like the general expectation over here isn't to react to people being curious about whether you know about their country by immediately acting as if it is rude to ask. You don't need an atlas for it, if you don't know, just say that you unfortunately don't instead of getting in a huff.
    This guy is not a politician; he’s not an official representative of the United States of America or even the state of Alabama. He's not an ambassador, he has no political clout, does not speak for the government of the USA, the people of the USA and does not have the power to make any deal, sign any political contracts or documents. He’s a basketball player, an athlete, nothing more.

    He may be representing the USA in a basketball game, but he’s not an official representative, therefore he cannot be held to the same standards as an ambassador or anyone else that is actually a government official.

    Believe it or not many Americans are aware that the USA and Americans are disliked by many Europeans, as a result we can become very defensive when we get blatantly attacked or just set up for attacks like this. Because it’s easy to assume that we are being set up and therefore attacked, we respond poorly. But that is human nature, and not something that's unique to Americans. So can we all agree to dislike each other and stand here starring at our toes?

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    I do in fact know American politics. And I rather pointedly remember what happened the last time US states decided not to let the federal government represent them. It ended with defensive trenches being invented and Atlanta being burned to the ground in retaliation for the act of secession. Alabama is not a sovereign entity that lets the US handle it's foreign affairs, it is an administrative subdivision off the US with specific spheres of authority as outlined by the US constitution and if it wanted to change that it would need a constitutional amendment which it cannot unilaterally create or enforce. To say that the states are sovereign entities that are just letting a higher organization handle some matters is a rhetorical figment and a vague remnant of an 18th century political debate, not actual fact of the American constitutional structure. This isn't the early confederation from the period between the revolutionary war and the passing of the constitution, even if some politicians occasionally claim otherwise. Which, incidentally, is the same status that the states of the Federal Republic of Germany and the states of the Russian Federation have. These are in fact also federations centered on states, it's not a unique American invention that nobody else has ever done. For that matter, there are also cities that have gone on trade missions to foreign countries, that's hardly a sign of sovereignty.

    States in the sense of sovereign international tendencies need two things. One is a monopoly on violence in its territory. The other is a foreign policy of its own. Alabama has neither.

    And, see, in most countries official national teams are official representatives of the country. Sure they don't do diplomacy or trade agreements, but they're still expected to make the country look good and treat other countries according to the standards of diplomatic courtesy, which happens to include at least pretending to care about them. I know the US doesn't really do international sports, but that doesn't make you exempt from the standards of them.
    Last edited by Terraoblivion; 2014-09-11 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Not quite, Slovenia is a sovereign state recognized by the UN, the Iowa nation is, so knowledge of Slovenia is more readily available and there are more contexts where you'll need to know.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about, though. I would argue that regardless of the influence of the ideology of the nation-state, assuming the validity and acceptance of that ideology is demeaning to other forms of community and cultures based in them. The idea that one "nation" is less important than another because it doesn't conform to a certain model is precisely what is insulting.

    I'm not saying this as someone actually taking offense, but rather to point out that something which can be assumed from one perspective — the inherent importance of being a nation-state, for instance — cannot necessarily be assumed from another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    I do have to ask, though, is it the Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma or the Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska?
    Yeah, I guess it's not really fair when there are two groups, huh? My family is from the Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska, I just didn't specify since that's rather a dead giveaway as to their location. I think our biggest claim to fame is probably a chapter of DeLillo's Mao II taking place in White Cloud, which was pretty cool as a kid from "flyover country" who never got to have that "Hey, I know that street" feeling reading the myriad of books set in New York or California or Paris.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    It's the state part rather than the nation part that makes Slovenia more influential and likely to be learned about. Being a recognized state comes with a lot of power compared to not being one, even if you're East Timor and barely have an army or an economy. It also comes with a lot of recognition.

    That said, yes, I think the Iowa as a group is as worthy of being treated with respect and courtesy, including doing basic research when planning on dealing with it, as any other group despite its small size and lack of a formally recognized state. It's just less likely to be something you hear about because it doesn't have a seat in the UN and isn't on the world map.

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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    This one girl my friend dated always drank "Lone Star" beer and whenever anyone made fun of her for it, she'd say "What? I love my country."
    There's multiple valid meanings of the word 'country'. For example 'terrain that isn't covered by a city'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    A lot of my family would say "Iowa" (the tribe, not the state) if asked their nationality. How many Europeans could point to our reservation on a map?
    I assume it isn't in the state of the same name, that would be convenient.

    If I was somehow in an sporting event competing against Native American nations, I would probably look them up. But that's just my personality, I can't expect everyone to do the same or think that I'm a better person just because I'm naturally inclined to research.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    He's not an ambassador, he has no political clout, does not speak for the government of the USA, the people of the USA and does not have the power to make any deal, sign any political contracts or documents. He’s a basketball player, an athlete, nothing more.

    He may be representing the USA in a basketball game, but he’s not an official representative, therefore he cannot be held to the same standards as an ambassador or anyone else that is actually a government official.
    There are some cultures who do expect that sort of thing. Some people do consider sportsmen to be ambassadors.

    At English schools children are considered to be official representatives of their schools and to be positive representations of that school at all times. If children in a certain school uniform become a public nuisance then it is considered to be the school's problem.

    International sporting events are diplomatic events. There's a reason why the most famous Olympics is the 1936 Berlin one. There's a reason why South Africa was banned from several major sporting events.

    I suspect that when your teams win sporting events, you are perfectly okay with considering them to be ambassadors of your nation. Here in Britain where we have multiple teams eligible for international sporting competitions this happens an awful lot. An African American comedian once joked that Tiger Woods is black when he wins and half-asian when he loses or philanders. This happens with various mixed nationality British sportsmen as well.

    I also suspect that if a member of an American team did something actually seriously drastic while in another country for a competition, you would consider him to be an embarrassment and to have failed the standards expected of him.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2014-09-11 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    A province is an administrative division of a larger political entity. A state is its own political entity that is connected to other states to form a union (at least in the USA). That is why it is “the United States of America” not “America” or anything else.
    Do you think provinces don't have their own governments or something? Yes, it's the initial basis of the US Government, but it's by no means the reality as it is now; I guarantee if Alabama tried to actually exercise any of the independence you claim it has, it would quickly shut down; any state would, they don't have the framework to operate independently. It's a union in the sense that Germany is a union. Or, for that matter, Canada or Britain.

    So it’s possible for a state to have a relationship with a foreign government. I doubt a state could get a seat on the UN Security Council, but still Alabama is its own political entity and it should be treated as such.
    Domestically, it's a political entity. Internationally, it's not, anymore than Île-de-France is.

    So the fact that Alabama as a state is strictly speaking less important than a Country is a mute point. Alabama not having a presence on the world stage is a mute point as well since it's made the decision to be represented by the United States of America in foreign policy.
    Remember what happened when it chose not to make that decision, perchance? Come now.

    Secondly the US government is purposefully designed so that no one state (or political branch) can gain too much political power (it’s called checks and balances people), therefore that point of Alabama not being politically significant in its own country is not valid.
    ....wat? Alabama isn't significant within that framework. If you want to argue political relevance isn't the only reason to try to remember something, I'd agree with you, but to argue that it's not relevant because Alabama's unimportance isn't highlighted in a middle school civics course is... spurious at best.

    Making the assumption that a state and a province, county, parish, district or any other sort of division of a larger whole is the same is a rather large mistake. So much so that it showcases European ignorance of the American political system. This is the second time I've had to correct people in this very thread. Not only that, it can showcase European arrogance if they are deliberately trying to demean a person from a particular state by bringing it down in importance to the political level of a province, county, parish, district etc.
    Putting aside that I know you're wrong on how the USA actually functions because I live in it, if I had to pick whether it was more likely for
    A: Americans to have flawed conceptions about the domestic political systems of countries they can't even identify on a map
    B: Europeans to have flawed conceptions about the domestic political system of the USA
    I'm going to pick option A as more likely. But also, you're wrong because you're citing the on-paper rights of states as conceived during the bloody Articles of Confederation rather than the actual reality of states as they are now.

    He may be representing the USA in a basketball game, but he’s not an official representative, therefore he cannot be held to the same standards as an ambassador or anyone else that is actually a government official.
    Kay, that actually [edit:] could make him an official representative, just in a very limited capacity (I have no earthly idea out of hand whether our team has any recognition from us at all, actually, currently checking). Second, that limited capacity isn't what means he should try to learn something about Slovenia, *especially* when asked if he does by a slovenian to his face. Basic human decency in operating in an international world is why he should try to learn the basics. I don't expect people to be encyclopedias. Off the top of my head, I placed it in the west Balkans, and checking has yielded that it's in the northwest corner of them. But you know, I checked, rather than getting defensive or glorying in not knowing.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Arent we getting a little far afield here? A jackass reporter asked a jackass question and was given a jackass response. Trying to argue over relative importance of geographical areas is just plain silly. It was no more than an exchange of "I know the location of this place and you dont, silly american!" "Well I know the location of THIS place and you dont, silly european!" Exchange over, moving on to the next question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Kay, that actually edit: could make him an official representative, just in a very limited capacity (I have no earthly idea out of hand whether our team has any recognition from us at all, actually). Second, that limited capacity isn't what means he should try to learn something about Slovenia, *especially* when asked if he does by a slovenian to his face. Basic human decency in operating in an international world is why he should try to learn the basics. I don't expect people to be encyclopedias. Off the top of my head, I placed it in the west Balkans, and checking has yielded that it's in the northwest corner of them. But you know, I checked, rather than getting defensive or glorying in not knowing.
    You wanna say he has the obligation to memorize the map of Europe, then show that he has the obligation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    You wanna say he has the obligation to memorize the map of Europe, then show that he has the obligation.
    Nobody is saying that. They're saying that he has an obligation to not being rude about not having a clue about Slovenia. And that maybe, after he learned that he would be at a press conference about playing against Slovenia he could take five minutes to check the location, capital and name of the language on wikipedia. That's rather different than having memorized a map of Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    You wanna say he has the obligation to memorize the map of Europe, then show that he has the obligation.
    What. How did you get that from me saying "I don't think he has to be an encyclopedia and know everything off the top of his head"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Arent we getting a little far afield here? A jackass reporter asked a jackass question[/quote
    Lulnope. You're assuming a basic level of hostility here. More than a basic level, actually. Like, this is actually a basic pleasantry; there's a reason why my 3DS includes on streetpass plaza a big ol' globe I can scroll through that has the locations of people who set their location and passed me, and the automated greetings include City, State, Country (Not relevant much for me, but). In making small talk with other people, telling people about where I'm from in the specific and a little blurb about where it can be found is something that I'm asked for, and that I then in turn ask for out of politeness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Geographic knowledge is heavily shaped by political influence. Germany is substantially better known that Krasnoyarsk Krai, to the point where I don't think anybody in this thread had ever heard about the latter, which isn't to be confused with the city of Krasnoyarsk, until I searched wikipedia for an extraordinarily large Russian area. This is despite Krasnoyarsk Krai being roughly seven times the size of Germany. And this is completely to be expected, Germany is a distinct entity that matters and has had a huge influence, Krasnoyarsk Krai is an extremely thinly populated tundra and taiga. You cannot discuss geography without taking political developments and significance into account, they shape what's meaningful in a geographical sense. And Alabama doesn't even work in that sense as it is not a naturally occurring feature, but purely a creation of human politics. The rather boxy shape should have tipped you off, you don't get those in nature.
    So you've demonstrated that political influence is not related to geographic noteworthiness, which fits with what I've been saying this whole time. But that's not the big deal right now, let's go back to your claim how I said "Slovenia is literally irrelevant". Maybe to you how much you remember where a country is located is related to how much you know about it, but that's not true for everyone. In my case for example, Germany is probably one of the European countries I'm most familiar with, and yet I still have some trouble finding it on a map compared to other European countries. Meanwhile, Italy I've been able to positively identify since I was child, because, you know, it's a boot, despite the fact that as much knowledge of it's history comes from playing the Assassin Creed games in the past few years as anything else.

    So to be crystal clear, my interest in a country and my ability to care about it's people are not even tangentially related to how precisely I can place it on a map. I'd thank you not to make uncalled for personal attacks directly contrary to what I have said.

    Even if Slovenia isn't important to you, it's important to Slovenians and they're just as real people worthy of respect as you are.
    That goes without saying. Though given how little respect you have me, what with you saying I don't care about the entire population of a country because I don't think their country is easy to find on a map, that doesn't mean a lot coming from you.
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    Okay, lets write up all the different points being made in this thread on one place for easy reference. I'll probably fail, because by now, they're many:

    Spoiler: First, the motives of the reporter
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    So far, there seem to be two alternative interpretations of the reporter's motives.
    1. The reporter is (not necessarily) Slovenian and is actually interested in how well-known his country is - This seems to be the point Terraoblivion is arguing from, and I won't dismiss this as unlikely for as long as I haven't heard the actual interview myself.
    2. The reporter is a jerk who wants to trap the player in the stereotype of American's as ignorant - This seems to be the point a few American's on here are arguing from, but I'm not sure...
    3. The reporter is a jerk who wants to trap the player in the sterotype of Americans as ignorant and self-important - This seems to be the point the rest of all people on here are making, including myself (but I reserve the right to change my mind in the light of more information).


    Spoiler: Second, the motives of the player
    Show
    There hasn't really been any discussion on this, but I'm writing up both alternatives for completeness sake.
    1. The player thought (correctly or not) that the reporter was trying to get him and retorted with what to him looked like a fair simile
    2. The player was a jerk who just wanted to get the reporter


    Spoiler: Third, the validity of different comparisons
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    A number of comparisons have been made, but since most have been mentioned as arguments of identical type, I'm going to keep the explicit ones to a minimum.
    1. Slovenia contra USA - As far as I can see, no one argues this is a fair comparison beyond the nomenclature.
    2. Europe contra USA - Only non-Europeans seem to argue for this one, with the arguments being that both are unions of smaller, mostly autonomous entities, and the counterarguments being a difference in how autonomous they are, and a difference in the USA having a top-down government and the EU having a bottom-up one.
    3. Slovenia contra Alabama - There seem to be two mayor factions here: those who think it's a fair comparison and those who don't. Most of those who think it's fair seem to be Americans, and the arguments seem to be geographical size, cultural and economic impact. The counterarguments seem to be international political significance, nomenclature and country subdivisions carrying little significance abroad.
    4. Alabama contra any other subdivision - These all seem to be arguments about how irrelevant subdivisions are outside of the countries themselves rather than actual comparisons.
    5. Alabama contra any landmass of given size - These all seem to be counterarguments to what I think is a misunderstanding of Reverent-One's point (only a fracion of it, if I'm not mistaken)...


    Spoiler: Fourth, what a sports practitioner on the national team's knowledge of a country's location actually is worth
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    Here we have a lot of debate, and I also think the most misconceptions.
    1. Nothing - Asking it of the player was completely uncalled for
    2. A nice gesture - Most people, at least outside of the USA seem to think that it would be nice of the player to have learned this before the game, but nothing required.
    3. An expected courtesy - I think the point Terraoblivion is trying to make is that in some parts of the world it's actually expected of sports practitioners to learn a little about their opposing team before the game out of sheer courtesy, but that it's okay if they aren't if they're up-front with it.
    4. An obligation - I don't think anyone is arguing for this, but a number of people seem to think other people are saying this.


    Spoiler: Fifth and last, the value of the player's retort
    Show
    I think this is what the discussion originated from until misconceptions blew up into another scale entirely.
    1. A witty reply - Mostly Americans seem to be arguing this. Some of these seem to be questioning the sheer notion that it could play into a stereotype, or that the reporter actually would be insidious enough to think of that when posing the question (seemingly based on the assumption that he's a crude jerk).
    2. A fall straight into the stereotype of self-importance - Most non-Americans seem to argue this, saying that it doesn't matter if the reporter knew this or not, because it plays into the sterotypes of Americans. Those who argue this seem to be in agreement that the best answer would just have been to have been up-front about it, potentially with an excuse.
    3. Witty despite being stereotypical - A sort-of middle ground which also seems to be mostly populated by Americans.
    4. A step down to the reporter's level - I think some are arguing that stereotypes or no, this was a step down and not very impressing.
    5. Arrogant - Terraoblivion seem to be saying something along this line, arguing that resorting to "gotcha" counter-questions is to make an implicit statement that the knowledge is completely insignificant even in context. Keep in mind that this possition assumes that the reporter's question wasn't obviously malicious in how it was presented.


    As far as I can see, a lot of people are trying to argue a point without having established common premises, which just makes the debate devolve into chaos. I hope I can try to make things a bit clearer.

    Also, I've tried to be mostly impartial in my write-up, but I guess some of my opinions shine through nevertheless. Try not to read too much judgement into it, I've tried to be assuming as much good intent of people as possible, but may stumble a bit upon the wordings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    He may not have been trying to say it, but through his stance, tone, and advocacy of just laying there and taking it, that's what he and a number of others in this thread have communicated.

    Which I suppose goes back into the whole "Americans view this as pointing out the equivalence of geographical trivia" vs. "Non-Americans think this is the height of American arrogance because of a whole laundry list of reasons to hate on the U.S. and Americans which would never have occurred to a basketball player when put on the spot like that."
    Coid, tone doesn't exist in a written medium. And I will point out that no one has advocated lying (there was one point where someone suggested "yes" as an answer, but that may've been a mistake, or implied a scenario in which the answer would be known). No one is arguing that this is the height of American arrogance either. If you can phrase your opponents views as an absurd statement, then you've probably misunderstood them. At least ask them if that's what they mean before you claim that's what they say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Could've fooled me. The general sentiment of this thread by non-Americans has been fairly clearly anti-American, at least in this instance. They haven't even offered a way that he could have responded without losing. Simply because he's American, there would be no winning response other than to accept an unreasonable obligation to memorize the trivia of where every country in the world falls on the map.
    The entire first half of the debate was devoted to people explaining that there exists a stereotype of Americans being insular and self-important and how such a response plays into said stereotype to those who want to see it confirmed. Pretty much all the same people expressed disassociation with those who believe in the same stereotype. Later when the discussion came to be about the validity of the comparison between Slovenia and Alabama, some people who defended it were called out by others on playing into the stereotype as well, which is being anti toward their behaviour, not anti toward America as a whole.

    Also, no one has argued that he should memorise everything. Some have argued that a little downtime before the game could have been used to research the team he'd be meeting, others that just saying no would give him the moral high ground and thus a victory in the eyes of everyone who doesn't want to see the stereotype confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Then how are you supposed to be able to assume we're all either Californians, Texans, or from New York City?
    New York City is as the name implies a city.

    California and Texas are together with Florida, Hawaii and Alaska the five states people actually would be likely to place correctly, on virtue of them all having a prominent location and high media presence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    So you've demonstrated that political influence is not related to geographic noteworthiness, which fits with what I've been saying this whole time.
    How did you get that from "Germany is more important than Krasnoyarsk Krai and therefore better known" and "Alabama is a geographical entity created purely through politics"? Because that's kind of directly the opposite of what those statements are saying. Unless you think Alabama is a non-entity and Krasnoyarsk Krai is better known or more important than Germany, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Nobody is saying that. They're saying that he has an obligation to not being rude about not having a clue about Slovenia.
    No, about not knowing about the geography of Slovenia, which is not the same as "not having a clue about Slovenia".

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    And that maybe, after he learned that he would be at a press conference about playing against Slovenia he could take five minutes to check the location, capital and name of the language on wikipedia. That's rather different than having memorized a map of Europe.
    By contrast, I suspect that he has researched the basketball in Slovenia very well. I'll bet he can name every member of the team, their free throw, shot, and 3-point percentage, their PPG, rebound and shot block stats, their strengths and weaknesses, and the plays they use most often.

    These are the things that matter to him professionally, and if he stopped studying the team just to satisfy personal curiosity about location, capital, language or other things, he's being non-professional.

    His response was clear - I don't know the location they're fro;, you don't know the location I'm from; why does it matter? We aren't here for a geography bee.

    Anybody reading an insult into it, rather than a rhetorical parry, is inventing the insult himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    How did you get that from "Germany is more important than Krasnoyarsk Krai and therefore better known" and "Alabama is a geographical entity created purely through politics"? Because that's kind of directly the opposite of what those statements are saying. Unless you think Alabama is a non-entity and Krasnoyarsk Krai is better known or more important than Germany, I guess.
    No, while the name and history of Germany is better known than Krasnoyarsk Krai because of it's influence, it is not geographically noteworthy compared to other European countries. Meanwhile, Krasnoyarsk Krai is the largest subdivision of the largest country in the world, it would be easy for anyone with basic awareness of it to point out on a map of Russia, but it is less influential. Alabama being a political construct is neither here nor there, that doesn't change how much political influence it has.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Showing some interest in your opponent outside of the match itself is a pretty common courtesy. It's like how you're expected to at least make some small talk about how the trip was and whether people are enjoying their stay at business meetings. Also, it's not a rhetorical parry or at least not a very well-thought out one. A simple "I'm sorry, I haven't gotten around to that" would be easier to do and had a much less defensive tone. Even if it actually was a trap, which I have a hard time believing, it would neatly sidestep it while also being what ordinary politeness say you do. It's the same as people telling you that someone you met is in a locally famous band and asking if you've heard about them, the polite thing is to say that you haven't if you haven't, not to be defensive about it because you think it's some kind of hipster wanting to suggest that you're too boorish to know them. Even if it was a hipster trying to do that.

    And, honestly, no, nobody is going to have an easier time pointing out Krasnoyarsk Krai on a map than Germany unless they live there. Germany is more clearly labeled and you've seen a map of it and its shape and surroundings far more often. It's just how it goes. Not to mention, you're far more likely to know about Germany than Krasnoyarsk Krai in the first place.
    Last edited by Terraoblivion; 2014-09-11 at 07:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    And, honestly, no, nobody is going to have an easier time pointing out Krasnoyarsk Krai on a map than Germany unless they live there. Germany is more clearly labeled and you've seen a map of it and its shape and surroundings far more often. It's just how it goes.
    That's a bunch of unsupported assumptions about other people and what they'll know. I disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    That's a bunch of unsupported assumptions about other people and what they'll know. I disagree.
    Dude, toddlers in Europe can place Germany on a map, even without borders, it's that significant to everyone in the continent. Good luck even finding a map that labels Krasnoyarsk Krai, draws its borders and isn't in Russia and have fun trying to find it in the big, empty expanse of Siberia without being labeled.

    I get that you don't know where Germany is, but that's a failing on your part, not Germany somehow being hard to find. It has a fairly recognizable shape, a number of countries that are famous for being its neighbors and is well-known to be at the center of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Dude, toddlers in Europe can place Germany on a map, even without borders, it's that significant to everyone in the continent.
    Of course people nearby know it easily. That means as much to other people as the basketball player's remark.

    I get that you don't know where Germany is, but that's a failing on your part, not Germany somehow being hard to find. It has a fairly recognizable shape, a number of countries that are famous for being its neighbors and is well-known to be at the center of Europe.
    Not really, just because you're familiar with it and memorized it doesn't mean it's recognizable on it own.
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    Default Re: Do you know where Alabama is?

    Compare it to all those countries that are sort of a roundish blob or all the squares that make up American states, it's fairly recognizable. It's not Italy or Denmark, no, but it's still one of the more recognizable shapes as far as countries go by virtue of being neither a square nor a roundish blob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    I do in fact know American politics. And I rather pointedly remember what happened the last time US states decided not to let the federal government represent them. It ended with defensive trenches being invented and Atlanta being burned to the ground in retaliation for the act of secession. Alabama is not a sovereign entity that lets the US handle it's foreign affairs, it is an administrative subdivision off the US with specific spheres of authority as outlined by the US constitution and if it wanted to change that it would need a constitutional amendment which it cannot unilaterally create or enforce. To say that the states are sovereign entities that are just letting a higher organization handle some matters is a rhetorical figment and a vague remnant of an 18th century political debate, not actual fact of the American constitutional structure. This isn't the early confederation from the period between the revolutionary war and the passing of the constitution, even if some politicians occasionally claim otherwise. Which, incidentally, is the same status that the states of the Federal Republic of Germany and the states of the Russian Federation have. These are in fact also federations centered on states, it's not a unique American invention that nobody else has ever done. For that matter, there are also cities that have gone on trade missions to foreign countries, that's hardly a sign of sovereignty.

    States in the sense of sovereign international tendencies need two things. One is a monopoly on violence in its territory. The other is a foreign policy of its own. Alabama has neither.

    And, see, in most countries official national teams are official representatives of the country. Sure they don't do diplomacy or trade agreements, but they're still expected to make the country look good and treat other countries according to the standards of diplomatic courtesy, which happens to include at least pretending to care about them. I know the US doesn't really do international sports, but that doesn't make you exempt from the standards of them.
    Well you’re right and wrong.
    A state may no longer have the power to secede from the union (although I think that’s wrong but that’s getting into politics, not that we aren’t already), they are part and parcel of that organization, if any state were to be removed, then the united states would suffer as a whole. It changes the whole nature of politics in the USA. The existence of Alabama in the union is not a minor thing. in fact getting into the union is very hard.
    I never said that other federated governments did not exist, or that the USA was unique in the world.
    Every state in the union, including Alabama has all the tools they need to set themselves up as a sovereign state. No state acts as one currently for many political reasons (primarily that it’s too easy to rely upon the federal government).
    A sports team does not represent a nation in any other capacity other than that of a sports team. However how they choose to act may reflect poorly on that country. They cannot make policy or represent the government in official dealings. It’s an unfortunate tendency people have to shove everyone from one place into one lump sum category. So in that aspect I guess you’re right.
    Part of the many reasons why the USA does not compete in many multi-national sporting events is that many of those sports are simply not popular in the states.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Do you think provinces don't have their own governments or something? Yes, it's the initial basis of the US Government, but it's by no means the reality as it is now; I guarantee if Alabama tried to actually exercise any of the independence you claim it has, it would quickly shut down; any state would, they don't have the framework to operate independently. It's a union in the sense that Germany is a union. Or, for that matter, Canada or Britain.


    Domestically, it's a political entity. Internationally, it's not, anymore than Île-de-France is.


    Remember what happened when it chose not to make that decision, perchance? Come now.
    I honestly don’t know, I don’t live in one, and I didn’t research it thoroughly enough. Call that arrogance if you want. (I never said Americans couldn’t be arrogant or were automatically better than anyone else)
    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    ....wat? Alabama isn't significant within that framework. If you want to argue political relevance isn't the only reason to try to remember something, I'd agree with you, but to argue that it's not relevant because Alabama's unimportance isn't highlighted in a middle school civics course is... spurious at best.
    It’s no more important than any other state. All states have equal rights and privileges and representation, at least in the senate, therefore it’s not any more significant than say, California. If I suggested that Alabama wasn’t significant in its own right, then I apologize for that, it was not my intent.

    Anyway all this political banter is tiring and makes great potential for thread lock, besides I have more important things to than talk with people online about politics.

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