Warlock invalidating my dungeons.

[ace rooster]

The traditional approach is to take Sudden Still Spell which gets you out of a grapple. Now spending a feat to do this is expensive and it's also only once per day, but how many times a day do you get Grappled ?

For smart foes who know a little about casters grappling is a pretty standard tactic (at least it should be). An unarmed caster doesn't even threaten, so improved grapple is not required. Teleporting into rooms with no intel and no support should probably make it happen more than once a day.

I'm not convinced that sudden still spell works on spell like abilities. They explicitly can use metamagic feats for spell like abilities, such as empower spell like ability, but still spell like ability does not exist.

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

The relevent part of the warlock class is

Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic component). A multiclass warlock still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from levels in other classes.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

What's the problem? Dimension Door has a verbal component, Flee the Scene has a somatic component.

[Darrin]

Cruel Tricks to Play On Good Teleporters

• Use more walkways/bridges/catwalks over pits/chasms/lava that are too long to teleport across.
• Pit trap with "stone floor" illusion cast over it.
• The pit trap is on the ceiling this time. Right over a permanent reverse gravity effect.
• 20' wide room, invisible wall of fire along one side of it.
• Hallucinatory terrain + wall of magma (Sandstorm). Lay the magma down horizontally as the floor. Yes, he can *bamf* right out of it, but he will remember that 5d6 + 2d6 damage for a very, very long time. Set up some old couches and coffee tables (immune to the fire damage, of course) in the room just for giggles.
• Just a simple alarm spell. An enemy that knows you're coming and has a few rounds to prepare is an immensely different experience than blundering into an enemy that wasn't expecting you.
• Glyphs! The basic glyph of warding offers two options: blast glyph is a generic zap trap that may make him a little more cautious, while spell glyph + dimensional anchor (3rd level if cast from the Portal domain) prevents him from teleporting for several minutes. Ghoul glyph (Spell Compendium) is only 2nd level and permanent until discharged, so a low-level caster can set up dozens if not hundreds of them beforehand if need be.
• Symbols! Symbol of sleep, symbol of stunning, and symbol of weakness could shut him down or put him in a precarious position. Even better, they have a 60' range, so you could get the whole party if they are standing nearby. Symbol of pain or symbol of fear could be used to make some other important skill check harder.
• Keys that radiate a dimensional anchor or antimagic field. Yes, he can *bamf* his companions past a door without the key, but you can put important keys, keyholes, buttons, or levers inside small chests or small compartments that he can't *bamf* into. A lock could have tumblers or pieces in it that are normally on the ethereal plane, so a dimensional anchor key forces the etheral parts to work in the physical world. Or they key causes an ethereal bridge above a lava pit to become solid. Make the AMF key the only way to get through a magical door or a passage filled with magical stone: the AMF turns off the magic, allowing the door to open or the passage to be clear.
• Get rid of hallways/doors, connect the rooms of the dungeon with teleportation circles.
• Put the entire dungeon under a dimensional anchor effect *unless* you have a "portkey" object. This allows the enemies to *bamf* around if they need to, but your Warlock will be shut down until he gets the portkey, and then he can use his powers normally. Start with a "limited use" portkey with 10 jumps for underlings, and then he can find the "gold portkey" after a boss fight. This way, you're only shutting him down temporarily, and if he gets theatrical about it, you can just say the enemies were just "playing smart" and you were not deliberately sandbagging his character, you just wanted to present the PCs a more strategic challenge.

[Psyren]

The relevent part of the warlock class is

Right, I get that, but that is a general rule. FtS could easily be a specific exception to that rule.

[nedz]

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

Let me finish that for you.

Flee the Scene is like Dimension Door, but it's an SLA instead of a spell.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

Warlock SLAs' (Invocations) do require a, minimal, somatic component though.

[nedz]

For smart foes who know a little about casters grappling is a pretty standard tactic (at least it should be). An unarmed caster doesn't even threaten, so improved grapple is not required. Teleporting into rooms with no intel and no support should probably make it happen more than once a day.

And smart casters are aware of the risk, but then they probably don't Teleporting into rooms with no intel.

I'm not convinced that sudden still spell works on spell like abilities. They explicitly can use metamagic feats for spell like abilities, such as empower spell like ability, but still spell like ability does not exist.

Warlocks can use any Metamagic feat which doesn't modify the level of the spell, so things like Invisible Spell would be fine. Sudden feats also do not modify the spell level and are called out specifically as being allowed in CArc p71

[Psyren]

Ooh, I didn't know that. Sudden Metamagics are slightly less bad now.

And amusingly, they apply to Utterances. One more miniscule tool for poor Zaq's toolbelt

[nedz]

Well I think it's a better idea for a Warlock to buy/make a Ring of Freedom of Movement, but still.

[Downzorz]

Couldn't be bothered to read the thread and see if these were mentioned already. I'll preface this by saying that some or all of these are probably **** moves for a DM to pull on a player, but they are something a competent villain might do if they have issues with teleportation.
- Dimensional Lock does interesting things if you teleport from outside the affected area into it. It blocks all extradimensional travel- meaning that you successfully transport yourself to the Astral plane and move, but are unable to transport back. Leaving the traveler stranded on the Astral. Depending on the cruelty of the dungeon's designer, that portion of the Astral may be filled with traps, monsters, or other goodies.
- Blind teleportation is bad; you never know if the door is holding back a room filled to the brim with acid/lava/poison/other discouragements.
- Teleporting back and forth, taking one party member at a time, is a form of splitting the party. I don't need to tell you what happens when you split the party.

[Andion Isurand]

Orthon devils (FCII 128) might make capable opponents against a teleport caster in closed quarters where they might be able corner someone. They're listed as a CR 8 with 7 HD that can emanate a 20 ft. radius field of dimensional interference as a swift action at will, that lasts 4 rounds each time. Plus, they're large and use an exotic reach weapon so they can attack targets anywhere within that field.

[gooddragon1]

I think that presenting direct counters (creatures that block teleport) or heavy handed counters (silence dungeon) might give the wrong message to the player. I think instead that implementing rational results might be the key. Roll the random encounter dice each time he teleports (the ones with 10% for an encounter popping up). Then have some of the denizens that might patrol the hallways notice him and bring the area on alert. Or if you put traps down have it go off. Maybe not the first or third time that he does it but the fourth time he lands on a trap. You're the DM so you can pretend that a trap was there (put other traps throughout the dungeon to make it seem like it was just bad luck). Not a particularly nasty one but something that shows him that there are risks to teleporting to somewhere without seeing it. Or set up traps in the dungeon in advance. Even better is to make the trap semi-obvious (like holes in the wall) that he could easily have avoided if he hadn't teleported into it. So, slightly raised pressure plates, etc.

If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted.

In fact, I think the raised pressure plates that work kind of like motion detectors might be the best solution. Lot's of them that reasonably easy to detect. An alternative that is a semi-direct counter if you do prefer that would be a custom encounter where teleporting partially succeeds and brings you to a demi-plane with an optional enemy encounter which he must defeat or risk being attacked by it each time he goes back (allow a second teleport to get to the area in question).

[Marlowe]

EDIT: Seems I was wrong, and that certain others have been cheaty cheaters who cheat.

Good for them.

[Psyren]

Why is anyone talking about Sudden Still? The relevant feat is Still Spell-Like-Ability in the Monster Manual.

Er, there is no such feat. Before Warlocks existed, there would have been no need of it, because SLAs usually don't have somatic components.

Similarly, there is no "Silent Spell-Like Ability" either (which was similarly irrelevant before Truenamers existed.)

[Marlowe]

Sorry about that.

[nedz]

Er, there is no such feat. Before Warlocks existed, there would have been no need of it, because SLAs usually don't have somatic components.

Similarly, there is no "Silent Spell-Like Ability" either (which was similarly irrelevant before Truenamers existed.)

It would have been quite easy for them to have added one though — also it would be a very easy piece of homebrew.

[Shinken]

It would have been quite easy for them to have added one though — also it would be a very easy piece of homebrew.

Spell like abilities don't have somatic or vocal components. Therefore, there is no need for Silent/Still Spell-like Ability feats.

[nedz]

Spell like abilities don't have somatic or vocal components. Therefore, there is no need for Silent/Still Spell-like Ability feats.

Except when they do, see above.

When they created Warlocks they could quite easily have added Still Spell Like Ability, etc.

[Psyren]

I think boosting all the Sudden X feats to be 3/day would be the better option, if you're going to homebrew. That makes them more fun/useful choices for everyone (rather than creating a feat that only one class will ever need), and more or less has the same effect.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted.

I still find it strange that current versions of Minesweeper do this. Sure, it makes sense, but in olden times the game would totally allow you to click on a mine right at the very beginning. The reason that it's weird to me is that it means the actual layout isn't decided until you make your first click, and that seems like a lot of effort just to prevent people from having to restart the game when they click on a mine right off the bat.

[nedz]

I think boosting all the Sudden X feats to be 3/day would be the better option, if you're going to homebrew. That makes them more fun/useful choices for everyone (rather than creating a feat that only one class will ever need), and more or less has the same effect.

I like that idea. As written the Sudden feats feel like an expensive luxury, and don't get me started on Sudden Quicken with it's outrageous Pre-Req chain, but why not do both and give the players the choice ?

[Psyren]

I like that idea. As written the Sudden feats feel like an expensive luxury, and don't get me started on Sudden Quicken with it's outrageous Pre-Req chain, but why not do both and give the players the choice ?

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

[Segev]

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

Nah, there's precedent. Bringing up Fighter may not be helping the case all that much, but it IS precedent.

Though, um, Binder also has a feat or two that are basically class features which you have to pay a feat tax to get.

All a "class-specific feat" does is say "this is an option, but not a requirement," or "we feel the class is too good to give it this perk for nothing, so we're taxing you a feat." You can achieve the first with choice-of class features (e.g. the Ranger's choice between ranged feats and two-weapon feats), but if you don't have an "either-or" trade-off you think works, or you want to allow them to pick one of several things up in varying orders depending on concept, making them feats is a good way to cost character resources for making the class more powerful without making the class inherently more powerful.

[Psyren]

I know there's precedent What I said was that I think it's bad design.

When it is your first scenario (i.e. "this is an option, not a requirement") I personally prefer it to be something the class can choose from for being a member of that class, much like the Pathfinder Ninja's Ninja Tricks, or the Pathfinder Barbarian's Rage Powers, or the Arcanist's Exploits.

For your second scenario, to be a good tax it needs to be way more powerful. Like a feat that automatically removes all somatic components from your invocations - or at a minimum, all the ones below the maximum level you're capable of using. Not some 1/day or 3/day bollocks.

[Segev]

I know there's precedent What I said was that I think it's bad design.

When it is your first scenario (i.e. "this is an option, not a requirement") I personally prefer it to be something the class can choose from for being a member of that class, much like the Pathfinder Ninja's Ninja Tricks, or the Pathfinder Barbarian's Rage Powers, or the Arcanist's Exploits.

Those are good, yes. I think it valid to have "well, we don't really have an alternative, but don't want every member of the class to have this, so we'll make it a feat they can choose instead of more generic abilities if they want."

Same concept as racial feats, really (which I think would be a great idea to expand upon, and a great solution to some of the lower-LA creatures' designs. Make them pay feats rather than LA for their racial abilities).

For your second scenario, to be a good tax it needs to be way more powerful. Like a feat that automatically removes all somatic components from your invocations - or at a minimum, all the ones below the maximum level you're capable of using. Not some 1/day or 3/day bollocks.

Agreed; feats in general could due to be more powerful. I've just created a thread on that topic, with a link to a google doc full of ideas, actually.

[Psyren]

Same concept as racial feats, really (which I think would be a great idea to expand upon, and a great solution to some of the lower-LA creatures' designs. Make them pay feats rather than LA for their racial abilities).

I'm actually not sure I like this idea. It ends up forcing every low-LA creature to look the same feat-wise if they want to feel iconic. As an example - if Drow had to, say, buy their spell-resistance with a feat, then either your starting feat is tied up in that regardless of class, or what you're playing doesn't feel like a Drow at all because you are just as vulnerable to color spray and shocking grasp et al. as any garden-variety elf.

[Dalebert]

[QUOTE=gooddragon1;18098141]If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted./QUOTE]

That really shouldn't be necessary since traps and monsters are already common occurrences in dungeons. As has been discussed, blind teleporting is inherently risky behavior. It's just a matter of time before he gets burned a few times and stops doing it casually and frequently. If it hasn't been in OP's dungeons up to now, maybe this thread has reminded of some things to think about regarding handling certain situations more accurately or designing dungeons differently, such as...

* During the round after using that invocation, he loses all remaining actions and is flat-footed. He can't even 5ft step. That's per DD.
* If he teleports into some mobs, he's often going to get attacked at least twice before he uses FtS to get back out because SLAs still trigger AoO, and quite possibly more than twice if there are multiple mobs who get to act before his next action.
* He'll be alerting mobs of a threat who can then have several rounds to prepare as his party does, or they can go ahead and attack enter the party's space and attack them before preparation.
* Traps should be something that he will occasionally trigger and could suck.
* We now know warlock invocations have a somatic component. So if a creature grapples him, he could be SoL for a while.

BTW, OP, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that you have been lax on some rules in the past and pointing the above factors out to him. He deserves to know if you let something slide in the past because you weren't aware of the details and that you now intend to enforce it. He may change his behavior immediately.

[Psyren]

Furthermore, his teleport works like dimension door - that means he lands in whichever square and can take no more actions. He has to wait until the following round to escape, which could mean a lot of attacks coming his way. He can't even use a move action to stealth once he gets there.

[Segev]

I'm actually not sure I like this idea. It ends up forcing every low-LA creature to look the same feat-wise if they want to feel iconic. As an example - if Drow had to, say, buy their spell-resistance with a feat, then either your starting feat is tied up in that regardless of class, or what you're playing doesn't feel like a Drow at all because you are just as vulnerable to color spray and shocking grasp et al. as any garden-variety elf.

Yes, but as-is, their first few levels all look the same. They're "level adjustment."

And you have the option of forgoing particular Drow abilities if they don't work for you. Or taking them in differing orders.

I do sympathize with the complaint; I share it in general, as it's one of the reasons I really don't like Savage Progressions, even ignoring how underpowered they are.

Furthermore, his teleport works like dimension door - that means he lands in whichever square and can take no more actions. He has to wait until the following round to escape, which could mean a lot of attacks coming his way. He can't even use a move action to stealth once he gets there.

This is a solid point. Do recall that a group of monsters are likely surprised to see him appear out of nowhere, though, so unless they can act in a surprise round, it should likely come to an initiative roll to see if he can Flee the Scene before they react. (Of course, if they're on alert, they won't be surprised...they may even have readied attacks.)

[nedz]

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

You can almost make the opposite argument with Fighter: the fact that anyone can steal his toys cheapens the class; this argument is, of course, weakened owing to his toys being second rate.