BRAIN FREEZE - What's next for a PSION?

[jabberwocky9]

I basically need help choosing what feats or abilities I can use for my 6th level character.

ROGUE 2/ FIGHTER 1/ PSION 3

I want to continue with Psion classes and focus on it's abilities/feats for it's class but I'm new to this type of character so I really don't know what direction to take it.

STR 14 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 21 WIS 16 CHA 16

FEATS:
1 (rogue) improve initiative, sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding
2 (rogue) evasion
3 (psion) narrow mind (discipline) telepath (bonus) expanded knowledge
4 (fighter) psionic endowment
5 (psion)
6 (bonus) greater psionic endowment

This character is 1/2 human, the other half is DM's homebrew race, thus abilities scores.

I like to build this character up to 20th lvl just to see the direction it will go. Unfortunately the Rogue/Fighter classes are set due to DM's Homebrew campaign.

[Rubik]

Psionic Endowment isn't a fighter feat and so cannot be taken as a fighter bonus feat.

Why would the DM force you to take levels in rogue and fighter? Will he allow you to take ACFs, such as martial rogue (SRD/UA) and dungeoncrasher fighter (Dungeonscape)?

If you really are stuck with those classes, take the ACFs mentioned above, then take psion into illithid slayer (just "slayer" in the SRD), and gish it up. After you finish with that, see if you can pull the ghostbreaker PrC from Hyperconscious. It's a full manifesting/full BAB class, but it's only 5 levels, and it's really easy to qualify for. It also gives some nice features, for all that.

[Segev]

Assuming Psionic Endowment is a Psionic feat, see if you can talk the DM into at least letting you take Psychic Warrior instead of the Fighter level; it would let you get that feat by the RAW, give you a couple bonus PP due to Wis 16, and give you a PsyWarrior power, which is going to do a lot more for you than +0.25 BAB (over what the Psychic Warrior level gives you) and a d10 instead of a d8 HD.

[jabberwocky9]

Psionic Endowment isn't a fighter feat and so cannot be taken as a fighter bonus feat.

Why would the DM force you to take levels in rogue and fighter? Will he allow you to take ACFs, such as martial rogue (SRD/UA) and dungeoncrasher fighter (Dungeonscape)?

If you really are stuck with those classes, take the ACFs mentioned above, then take psion into illithid slayer (just "slayer" in the SRD), and gish it up. After you finish with that, see if you can pull the ghostbreaker PrC from Hyperconscious. It's a full manifesting/full BAB class, but it's only 5 levels, and it's really easy to qualify for. It also gives some nice features, for all that.

Psionic Endowment - was able to get away with; I don't disagree.

As far as being forced for the Rogue/Fighter levels; just part of Homebrew world that DM is running(story line). Enslaved humans; Rebellion; blah blah blah. Explained to him is resembles "Battlefield Earth".

I'll see if I can get away with that but I'm dealing with a controlling DM, hence homebrew world. He even has Noobs running complicated characters. Greener than I am, which is bad.

What's the reasoning for martial rogue? I understand the dungeoncrasher.

[Rubik]

What's the reasoning for martial rogue? I understand the dungeoncrasher.

+1d6 sneak attack won't be very useful for much of anything, but bonus feats help your overall build accomplish more, since they enhance the rest of your build nicely.

[edit] Also, ghostbreaker is OGL, BTW. That IS 3.5, too. Hyperconscious reintroduced psionic combat modes, but it made them short, sweet, and FAR more balanced than the 3.0 version. You can skip that part of the class if you really want, however.

[jabberwocky9]

Assuming Psionic Endowment is a Psionic feat, see if you can talk the DM into at least letting you take Psychic Warrior instead of the Fighter level; it would let you get that feat by the RAW, give you a couple bonus PP due to Wis 16, and give you a PsyWarrior power, which is going to do a lot more for you than +0.25 BAB (over what the Psychic Warrior level gives you) and a d10 instead of a d8 HD.

Good idea. Yes, it's clear that Psionic Endowment is NOT a fighter feat, ha ha. Psychic Warrior would take care of that problem but I was able to get away with it but this whole idea with the character; rogue2/ fighter 1 .... ?

I'm going to see if I can entice the DM w/ different starting build: Martial Rogue/psychic warrior/psion

[jabberwocky9]

+1d6 sneak attack won't be very useful for much of anything, but bonus feats help your overall build accomplish more, since they enhance the rest of your build nicely.

[edit] Also, ghostbreaker is OGL, BTW. That IS 3.5, too. Hyperconscious reintroduced psionic combat modes, but it made them short, sweet, and FAR more balanced than the 3.0 version. You can skip that part of the class if you really want, however.

I see where you are going considering I won't be using it anyway, right?

I probably try to go with Martial rogue/ Psychic warrior/ Psion.
I'll see how that works with your attachment.

thanks

[Daishain]

If you aren't stuck with the psion levels yet, I might suggest using Ardent instead. Not because it is a better class necessarily, but because it tolerates multiclassing a bit better.

The way the class is set up, you get to choose powers based on manifester level, not class level. In other words, a fighter2/rogue1/Ardent3 with the practiced manifester feat is choosing his powers known as a level 6 psionic character, not a level 3. This doesn't help the actual number of powers known, or PP progression, but it does help you get your hands on those higher level powers.

Similarly, the psychic warrior and psychic rogue classes would also be good ways to continue progression instead of psion. (the rogue has better ability symbiosis though) Although in their case because they would complement your current abilities.

If you do wish to continue with Psion, your focus is going to be on maximizing your versatility. If you are familiar with playing a sorcerer, your priorities on power selection are largely the same here.

Always abuse your psicrystal, and ask your DM if it gets feats in his opinion (it does by some interpretations, but it hasn't been specified either way)

When it comes to PrCs, there are a few that come to mind depending on what you want your role to be.

-Thrallherd is a potentially game breaking prestige class mainly designed for Telepaths. Its basically the leadership feat on steroids paired with impressive mind control. What could you do with two cohorts and an army of mooks that are suicidally devoted to your cause?

-Mindbender is nice for a one level dip, it gets you the telepathy ability, which in turn qualifies you for the ambush ruining feat known as mindsight. (screw your hide checks, I can smell your brain!)

-Since homebrew is apparently just fine, there's a very interesting one I ran across a while back known as Psicrystal Savant. Your psicrystal becomes a construct that can fight on your behalf and your connection to it becomes stronger. Progress all the way through, and you become almost impossible to kill, since both master and psicrystal must be destroyed at roughly the same time. Note: your psicrystal starts to rival your own intellect along this path, especially if you use feats to boost its abilities even further. It is entirely feasible from a roleplaying perspective that the pet rock ends up the master

-Anarchic Initiate is... interesting. It mostly benefits psionic blasters that don't mind having a random chance of failure. I'm not a fan due to the potential backlash, but I cannot deny that these guys can be scarily effective. As in, burn entire cities to ash effective.

-Elocater is an interesting option for a Gish build. You lose some manifester levels, but gain a number of interesting movement abilities, such as a permanent floating effect at first level (fly speed equal to land speed if close to the ground, much slower but still present high up.) All in all, it is good for anyone that wants a high degree of mobility on the battlefield.

[Rubik]

Always abuse your psicrystal, and ask your DM if it gets feats in his opinion (it does by some interpretations, but it hasn't been specified either way)

Actually, there's no "some interpretations" about it. Psicrystals gain feats via HD, and there's no wriggle-room on that. The first level feat printed in the psicrystal entry gives credence to that, since it took Alertness as its feat.

Houserules, however, are anyone's guess.

[jabberwocky9]

If you aren't stuck with the psion levels yet, I might suggest using Ardent instead. Not because it is a better class necessarily, but because it tolerates multiclassing a bit better.

The way the class is set up, you get to choose powers based on manifester level, not class level. In other words, a fighter2/rogue1/Ardent3 with the practiced manifester feat is choosing his powers known as a level 6 psionic character, not a level 3. This doesn't help the actual number of powers known, or PP progression, but it does help you get your hands on those higher level powers.

Similarly, the psychic warrior and psychic rogue classes would also be good ways to continue progression instead of psion. (the rogue has better ability symbiosis though) Although in their case because they would complement your current abilities.

If you do wish to continue with Psion, your focus is going to be on maximizing your versatility. If you are familiar with playing a sorcerer, your priorities on power selection are largely the same here.

Always abuse your psicrystal, and ask your DM if it gets feats in his opinion (it does by some interpretations, but it hasn't been specified either way)

"Interesting, failed my awareness."

When it comes to PrCs, there are a few that come to mind depending on what you want your role to be.

-Thrallherd is a potentially game breaking prestige class mainly designed for Telepaths. Its basically the leadership feat on steroids paired with impressive mind control. What could you do with two cohorts and an army of mooks that are suicidally devoted to your cause?

-- "I was very interested in this, don't know if this would scare off the DM, ha ha."

-Mindbender is nice for a one level dip, it gets you the telepathy ability, which in turn qualifies you for the ambush ruining feat known as mindsight. (screw your hide checks, I can smell your brain!)

-- "Would it be worth it?"

-Since homebrew is apparently just fine, there's a very interesting one I ran across a while back known as Psicrystal Savant. Your psicrystal becomes a construct that can fight on your behalf and your connection to it becomes stronger. Progress all the way through, and you become almost impossible to kill, since both master and psicrystal must be destroyed at roughly the same time. Note: your psicrystal starts to rival your own intellect along this path, especially if you use feats to boost its abilities even further. It is entirely feasible from a roleplaying perspective that the pet rock ends up the master

-- "I see complications arising."

-Anarchic Initiate is... interesting. It mostly benefits psionic blasters that don't mind having a random chance of failure. I'm not a fan due to the potential backlash, but I cannot deny that these guys can be scarily effective. As in, burn entire cities to ash effective.

-- "Also not a fan of"

-Elocater is an interesting option for a Gish build. You lose some manifester levels, but gain a number of interesting movement abilities, such as a permanent floating effect at first level (fly speed equal to land speed if close to the ground, much slower but still present high up.) All in all, it is good for anyone that wants a high degree of mobility on the battlefield.

-- "I've seen that and I don't know about floating around. Agree it would be interesting."

Thanks

[Daishain]

Actually, there's no "some interpretations" about it. Psicrystals gain feats via HD, and there's no wriggle-room on that. The first level feat printed in the psicrystal entry gives credence to that, since it took Alertness as its feat.

Houserules, however, are anyone's guess.

If you can point me to a ruling where it is stated that gaining HD by unusual means always comes with the feat progression, or that the HD gained by psicrystals do qualify, I'll agree. As it stands, they left it somewhat ambiguous from what I know of the matter.

Do remember that the psicrystal progression is more akin to that of the familiar than standard HD bearing critters, and familiars definitely do not get feats.

[Rubik]

If you can point me to a ruling where it is stated that gaining HD by unusual means always comes with the feat progression, or that the HD gained by psicrystals do qualify, I'll agree. As it stands, they left it somewhat ambiguous from what I know of the matter.

Do remember that the psicrystal progression is more akin to that of the familiar than standard HD bearing critters, and familiars definitely do not get feats.

No, actually. Psicrystals gain real HD, like animal companions do.

"Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp ½ master’s)" and "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice"

Whereas familiars are only treated as though they have HD.

"For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher."

So psicrystals gain actual Construct HD. And according to the SRD:

"As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type."

Also, right at the bottom of the table, it says: "All [creature] types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice."

The only exception to these rules is that mindless creatures don't gain feats or skills, but that's due to the [Mindless] trait.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you had Practiced Manifester you would be able to jump straight into Psychic Assassin. If you're not evil aligned see if you can remove the Death Attack class feature along with the alignment and special prerequisites, and just call it Psychic Special Agent or similar. Ideally you could just hire an NPC Psion for a Psychic Reformation, which should cost 280 gp plus 125 gp per level you repick plus 25 xp per level you repick. So if you repicked your feats and skill points and powers all the way back to 1st level, it would cost you 1,030 gp and 150 xp.

In that case, you should get rid of Narrow Mind, Psionic Endowment, and Greater Psionic Endowment, plus Expanded Knowledge when taken at Psion 1 can only get you a 0-level power, which don't even exist: "Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest." In place of those four feats, get TWF, Weapon Finesse, Practiced Manifester, and maybe move Expanded Knowledge to Psion 3 so you can at least get a 1st level power with it.

Psychic Assassin can get you Mind Cripple, which deals 2 Int damage on every sneak attack you make. Get Gloves of the Balanced Hand in MIC to get Improved TWF without spending a feat on it, which functions even if you don't have a +6 BAB yet. After Psychic Assassin 6 you can pick up Slayer to finish the build to level 20. I would also see if you can use the retraining rules in PH2 Chapter 8 to exchange some of your class levels for different ones, ideally you would want to go Spellthief 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9 for a 20th level build. A single level of Spellthief allows you to use wands of any Wizard spell on their class spell list, namely a Wand of Wraithstrike which you can put into a Wand Chamber on one of your weapons.

[Rubik]

If you go with the gish martial rogue/X/psion/illithid slayer/ghostbreaker route, I think dungeoncrasher fighter 2 would actually do more for you than the psywar level, even combined with an extra manifester level. +2 or so pp, a better skill list, and a 1st level power (at manifester level 1) really aren't comparable to what dungeoncrashing gives you, I think.

That's one sweet ACF, fo' sho'.

[jabberwocky9]

What said benefit for having dungeon crasher as opposed to one level of fighter and additional level of Psion build?

[Rubik]

What said benefit for having dungeon crasher as opposed to one level of fighter and additional level of Psion build?

One word: Knockback.

Now imagine using that in conjunction with Metamorphosis and Expansion, as well as, say, a glaive, and Combat Reflexes. Lots of banging enemies around.

Or Telekinetic Maneuver.