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Thread: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
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2014-09-17, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
It is, at heart, a silly-looking font, and can create a jarring and (I believe) unintended impression when used in the wrong context. For example, I have had secretaries from major businesses send me professional emails written in comic sans (presumably because they thought it was cute). When that appears in the midst of a bunch of other emails written in more traditional styles, it jumps out as being "off" and more than a little bit "ugly." In its proper context, like speech balloons, there isn't that comparison and it might read easier and be more effective than a stiffer font. But when you're talking about regular dealings, a font that jumps in your face and looks silly just tends to give the reader a negative first impression.
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2014-09-17, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
There's an immediate problem with this explanation; you're making a value judgement, using subjective descriptions, and then leaving them to be challenged. What's wrong with a clown costume? Clowns are not inherently off, or funny, or nonserious. I've seen some damned serious and downright dignified clowns. Watch cirque su soleil stuff, you'll see it too.
I also think you are making a very obvious mistake wih the word comic. It is not the [funny or humorous] sans font; it is the [visually stylistic] font. It's manga sans, not Robin Williams sans.
And the CS Lewis quote... That irritates me. Not the quote, the situation here. Rather than be upset, I think it'll be more productive to explain why I would be upset.
SpoilerMy use of adult and child for the thread, both in tone and language. The use of a quote from an author, an appeal to authority, would normally make sense. But you are discarding the context of the conversation we've all been having in order to make an unrelated point seemingly at my expense. I know the nature of adult and child, I know the quote, I know the problems with feeling that childish = bad, and now I am in a position where I either have to seemingly accept the wisdom provided (that I didn't need) or defend myself from an insinuated accusation of not being clever enough, and it just leaves me with this poorly articulated ball of frustration in my belly. I mean, did I somehow give the impression that I think children are bad? Have I not comported myself with more open-mindedness than this in the past? Where did I go wrong that it seems good to correct me on something so small as a word choice that's specifically using someone else's words to ask them why they picked those words and what they mean?
I dunno. It feels condescending but I know you weren't being condescending. My instinct is to talk about it for resolution but we don't even know each other. This will probably come across as angry instead of just confused and frustrated.
Spoiler: You didn't make your point nearly as well as you hoped
Although, presumably, being a sentient creature of at least the forum minimum 13 years old and being Internet proficient, I have seen the Comic Sans don't in use prior and still feel asking the question is worthwhile, which means demonstration has not made it clear in the past, which means continued demonstration instead of an articulate answer isn't going to make things clearer by any stretch.
That makes more sense. Being a proud nail and intimating a severe misread of the situation on part of the user is a much clearer explanation.
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2014-09-17, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
It makes it look handwritten by a neat eleven-year-old. It's still not a positive impression, all things considered.
It's very hard to get a typeface to "feel" like handwriting. Nearly impossible without coding in a degree of jitter and variance in the letter formation and kerning, beyond the scope of normal word-processors, and much harder than just writing it by hand unless you're physically incapable of doing so. Even a typeface that mimics a handwritten style still looks wrong, because it's too regular. Comic Sans is less regular than some (which is part of what gives it its cutesy, informal feeling, I think), but each letter and ligature is still identical to its siblings.
The human eye is surprisingly good at picking up on the tiny imperfections that give away the differences between a digital production and something produced by hand. If you're hoping to get away with credit for handwriting by using Comic Sans, you deserve to be slapped upside the head. Twice, really, once for trying to get credit for handwriting when you didn't, second for using Comic Sans on a document theoretically important enough to write by hand.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-09-17, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Originally Posted by LaZodiac
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2014-09-17, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
You wouldn't wear a clown costume to work, though, would you? (Unless you work as a clown). Or wear one to deliver bad news? There is an accepted context in which clown costumes are acceptable and if you remove them from that, they look weird. Comic Sans is basically the same. There's nothing inherently wrong with either a clown costume or Comic Sans, but they were not designed to be used in a formal environment, standard practice has mirrored that, and when they are, it looks at best off and at worst outright disrespectful.
I also think you are making a very obvious mistake wih the word comic. It is not the [funny or humorous] sans font; it is the [visually stylistic] font. It's manga sans, not Robin Williams sans.
"I regret to inform you that your father was struck by a car this morning. KAPOW!" (Sorry, the idea just amused me too much not to say it...)
And the CS Lewis quote... That irritates me. Not the quote, the situation here. Rather than be upset, I think it'll be more productive to explain why I would be upset.
SpoilerMy use of adult and child for the thread, both in tone and language. The use of a quote from an author, an appeal to authority, would normally make sense. But you are discarding the context of the conversation we've all been having in order to make an unrelated point seemingly at my expense. I know the nature of adult and child, I know the quote, I know the problems with feeling that childish = bad, and now I am in a position where I either have to seemingly accept the wisdom provided (that I didn't need) or defend myself from an insinuated accusation of not being clever enough, and it just leaves me with this poorly articulated ball of frustration in my belly. I mean, did I somehow give the impression that I think children are bad? Have I not comported myself with more open-mindedness than this in the past? Where did I go wrong that it seems good to correct me on something so small as a word choice that's specifically using someone else's words to ask them why they picked those words and what they mean?
I dunno. It feels condescending but I know you weren't being condescending. My instinct is to talk about it for resolution but we don't even know each other. This will probably come across as angry instead of just confused and frustrated.
I was also amused that we appeared to start from opposite principles and yet have reached opposite conclusions (or at least that I had reached that conclusion intuitively, and you were requesting explanation) despite the stated principles theoretically leading more appropriately to the opposite position.
What I would say/accept is that if you replace "adult" with "formal" in your original statement, I agree with it wholeheartedly. There is a time and a place for childishness and it's basically everywhere that isn't formal. However I wouldn't accept the implied "adult=formal" correlation, not least because children have formal stuff too. And it wasn't clear, in your original post, whether that was in fact what you meant, or whether it was the (widespread) blanket approach that "adults being childish = bad". In which case it segues to a different conversation, and it's about discussing why Comic Sans is perceived as childish, rather than why Comic Sans is inappropriate - a small distinction but a significant one, especially when you disagree with the starting presumption ("childish=bad") but believe that it's inappropriate all the same.
Edit: has anyone else noticed in the post window the standard sans font (is it Tahoma or Verdana?) is starting to look decidedly... Comic, as this conversation goes on?Last edited by Aedilred; 2014-09-17 at 04:01 PM.
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2014-09-17, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Originally Posted by LaZodiac
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2014-09-17, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
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2014-09-17, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Comic Sans is a garbage typeface that was poorly converted from a raster typeface that wasn't great even then, and then became overused much to the irritation of anyone who's ever heard of typography. If you absolutely positively need a childish hand-drawn typeface, use Comic Neue (install the replacer to automatically swap Comic Sans instances for Comic Neue). If not, use a real typeface.
Last edited by Flickerdart; 2014-09-17 at 05:47 PM.
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2014-09-17, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-18, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
This signature is no longer incredibly out of date, but it is still irrelevant.
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2014-09-18, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
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Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
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2014-09-18, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Originally Posted by LaZodiac
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2014-09-18, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Learning that people have a hard time reading comic sans makes me feel like some kind of reading superhero. I usually do okay with metal band logos, those poor people must get dizzy and eventually puke up words Paranoia Agent-style if they try and read cursive.
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2014-09-18, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
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2014-09-18, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Well, reading the first two posts in this thread made me want to gouge out my own eyes because it was painful trying to read a block of it. I doubt I'd even notice it if it were limited to a line or two here and there. In fact when used in its natural environment (comics, graphic novels, manga) it has its certain charm. If I were given a novel written in comic sans I'm pretty sure I'd have to restrain the impulse to use the book to slap the giver across the head with it.
I plead guilty to liking papyrus font (to a certain extent). It didn't really become a thing in the US until after I was overseas, so I didn't get supersaturated with it at the same pace as the haters. But if I want something actually readable in the Latin alphabet I'll stick to Times New Roman or Arial.I used to live in a world of terrible beauty, and then the beauty left.
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2014-09-19, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
I'm not a particular fan of TNR. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just something about it. Maybe it feels too serious; it certainly feels a bit square. I prefer Garamond or Bembo, but I'd take Baskerville or Georgia over TNR. A friend of mine actually blames his not doing as well on his uni dissertation as he feels he should have on being obliged to submit it in TNR rather than a typeface of his choosing (not entirely seriously, but you can tell he's annoyed several years on).
And Arial's just a rip-off of Helvetica If a sans serif font is necessary, I do prefer Tahoma, Verdana and Calibri for writing extensively, though.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-09-19, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
VSauce has an interesting video on this topic. As for my opinion...I don't really like Comic Sans. Not because some authority said so, but because it looks wrong to me in most contexts that it's used in. I wouldn't have been able to put my finger on exactly what makes it look wrong before I watched VSauce's video on the topic, but the host explains pretty well why some people find that it looks wrong. One of those (and I take it as my reason) is that it's not straight and regular like a more "formal" (for lack of a better word) font, and yet it's not flowing or natural like actual handwriting.
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Free speech?
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2014-09-19, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Comic Sans opposes net neutrality.
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2014-09-19, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
That is however, completely, irrelevant when it comes to the artistic merits of the font.
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2014-09-19, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
... where are these people who use comic sans inappropriately? I've been using computers for correspondence since 1990, and I have NEVER seen Comic Sans used in any university or professional context. Back in the 90s I saw a lot of Times Roman, Times New Roman, and a bit of courier for coding. Then sometime around 2000 or so Arial became popular and seems to be the default.
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2014-09-19, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
If you read Clients From Hell, you will see a lot of people demanding their website be done in comic sans. Though I get the feeling thats because they have actually HEARD of comic sans, and are trying to sound like they know what they are talking about. Its honestly amusing to me how far people will go to try and bluff their way through a technical meeting of some sort they have no real knowledge on. They would get a lot more respect if they just flat out said, "I dont know anything about this stuff, walk me through my options and I will tell you what I like." Rather than throwing out a dozen misused buzzwords trying to pretend you have any idea what the job entails and arguing with the expert when he tells you something cant be done. "I dont see the problem, you HAVE photoshop, so just rotate the picture around so we can see the guys face instead of the back of his head!"
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2014-09-19, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Last edited by Aedilred; 2014-09-19 at 10:07 AM.
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2014-09-19, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
I might be crazy, but that tombstone has a certain charm in Comic Sans... the others were awful.
Well, it was supposed to be used to print The Times. I wouldn't use it for much else.
And Arial's just a rip-off of Helvetica
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2014-09-19, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
Which is why it was developed in the first place, of course, its being cheaper (on that sort of scale) to rip a typeface off than to pay to license an existing one.
I think among true typographic and design (snob) circles Arial is actually hated more than Comic Sans, albeit for different reasons.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-09-20, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-20, 01:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
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2014-09-20, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
I don't think it's wise to have a preferred typeface in all contexts, unless you're a business trying to build a strong corporate image (and even then, you can get away with changing it, as IKEA did). After all, different typefaces exist for a reason. I believe received wisdom is that serif fonts are better in print and sans fonts better on screen, although iirc studies tend to show people find it easier to read more familiar styles irrespective of what those styles are (historic documents are often hard to read now because of the hand or type used: indeed in Germany blackletter was widely considered more legible well into the 20th century).
Then there are other considerations like headers vs body text. I worked for a company that insisted on Century Gothic for everything, and while it looked ok most of the time there were occasions I thought "you know, this could look a lot better if we used a different typeface..." After all, Comic Sans itself came about because of the inappropriate ubiquity of Times New Roman.
I'm by no means a design expert nor do I get the opportunity to stretch my aesthetic legs in too many fields, but I do have a selection of typefaces that are my go-to ones whenever I'm starting a new project. For fantasy-style labelling and legends my starting-point is Dominican or Dominican Italic, although I mix it up depending on the map. But I don't think it works well for body text (WFRP2 was written almost entirely in it, and looks weird). I love Garamond and Bembo and tend to use one or the other for printed documents or novella pdfs but wouldn't put them in, say, a spreadsheet - for that I usually use Tahoma. For email, usually Calibri, as is standard these days. For a large sign I'd try to find something thematically appropriate but otherwise probably start with Futura or Helvetica. I'd even consider Comic Sans if I were, well, lettering a comic (not that it's likely) although if tempted I'd use Comic Neue instead.
I've got no idea what I'd use Papyrus for. But I don't actually have that much of a problem with it.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-09-20, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?
As stated, Comic Sans is hard to read in smallish print. It's also very inefficient to print. It uses a lot more ink than Times New Roman, Arial, or Garamond. (I forgot what that other font that's popular for essays lately is. Starts with a 'c' or something.)
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2014-09-20, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-09-20, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Whats so bad about Comic Sans?