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    d20 afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    Yes, after a short hiatus I've decided once again to wade into the world of questions about the Planes. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. here, here, here and most recently here.

    If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for lots and lots of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

    Once again, the fundamentals:

    Basic Rules

    • We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

    • I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

    • 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

    • I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

    • There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

    • This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

    Core Concepts

    • The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

    • The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

    • I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

    • When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

    Zargon is not an ancient baatorian. That is all.

    Happy questioning!
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2014-09-18 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    The "Chalice" of hieroneous, anything you can add to canonfire's page? Why Dispator? Does he have any long range plans for her (or his boss).

    Apologies for spelling, phones and such.

    Edit; Or should the whole thing just be thrown out the window?
    Last edited by Brookshw; 2014-09-16 at 03:21 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    The "Chalice" of hieroneous, anything you can add to canonfire's page?
    No, it was a pretty one-off idea.

    Why Dispator?
    Because Hextor found it very easy to deal with the Iron Duke, and because Dispater didn't get the title of Iron Duke for being a marshmallow when it comes to imprisonment.

    Does he have any long range plans for her (or his boss).
    Nothing's been specified.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    On an Io kick!

    Where does the first void fit into the cosmology, outside of it in a sense like the far plane? In some theoretical sense like the ordial? Are the old ones there or do they have some other place to cool their heels? What do we know about the first void?

    Is there any legacy of Vorel other than Tiamat's a twit? Items, locations, anything really. Or is this a "she's dead Jim" and that's the end of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vendin, probably
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    I had a couple of questions that I wanted to ask, but now I can't remember them.

    So, ancient baatorians, the Nine Hells and other ancient creatures instead.

    Zargon is described as one in Elder Evils, specifically that he was the "father" of the race, and that his kingdom in the Hells was a terrifying place "filled with running slime and rampant evil." Is that presumably an accurate depiction of what it was like back in the day for the ancient baatorians?

    On their current appearance, I recently looked for depictions, and counting Zargon with his tentacley body as one, I also found that adventure with yugoloths who had a nupperibo on the verge of evolving and it was starting to produce tentacles out of its stomach. There's also the one where the sleeping ancient baatorian looks a bit like some sort of jellyfish-thing (the PCs enter a room and it sucks up all the light; there's a gray-shaded image of it on the page) that sucks up all their life force and can't be harmed by anything less than a wish or miracle "in that state." Are there any other pictures or descriptions you are aware of, or are those the only three?

    What do you think they most likely look like, besides Baalphegor (whose form may just be the result of illusion or shapeshifting)?

    Is it likely that some of them might be locked up in Carceri? Or frozen beneath Cania?

    I was reading (on the Internet, so imagine my skepticism) that there are two stories to Bensozia's death. One is that Levistus killed her for refusing to side with him against Asmodeus, and one that Glasya killed her because she was sleeping around with Levistus and got caught in the act. Which of the two do you think is more likely to be true?

    Extra question, was there ever anything more said about the "Sleeping Ones" living beneath the Paraelemental Plane of Ice? Such as their origin, identity, or the like? The size makes me think draeden, along the lines of Ulgurshek in the Abyss with a layer growing around him.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    We're back?!? HOORAY!!! \o/ So... What can you tell us about Vorel (the sister of Bahamut and Tiamat)? Do you know of any relations between Sardior and Bahamut/Tiamt?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    I still don't see why Levistus got it so easy. To clarify, I'm not asking why he wasn't destroyed; rather, I'm asking why Asmodeus doesn't subject him to tortures beyond that of an arcanaloth's greatest imagination.

    ...Well, approaching an arcanaloth's greatest imagination, anyway.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2014-09-17 at 04:07 PM.
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    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    What do we know about the first void?
    Nothing. As noted, it's not a component of the myths of other races, not so far as we know of at any rate. It's very likely simply an egotistical component of draconic mythology. Of course, "very likely" is altogether different from "definitely," so...

    Is there any legacy of Vorel other than Tiamat's a twit? Items, locations, anything really. Or is this a "she's dead Jim" and that's the end of it?
    Nothing more was ever introduced on Vorel, to my knowledge. Someone homebrewed a vestige once, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    Zargon
    No. Let me go amend the first post regarding that.

    Are there any other pictures or descriptions you are aware of, or are those the only two.
    The nupperibo isn't even fully transitioned at that point, but yes, those are the only two. I wouldn't take them as the be-all, end-all of what baatorians looked like.

    What do you think they most likely look like
    You know how obyriths all look horrifyingly wrong? Well.

    Is it likely that some of them might be locked up in Carceri?
    No.

    Or frozen beneath Cania?
    Well, something was, and it wasn't baatezu...

    I was reading (on the Internet, so imagine my skepticism) that there are two stories to Bensozia's death. One is that Levistus killed her for refusing to side with him against Asmodeus, and one that Glasya killed her because she was sleeping around with Levistus and got caught in the act. Which of the two do you think is more likely to be true?
    I've never even heard the second one, but it's wrong. The first one is one of the few totally factual things that can be known about the Lord Below.

    Extra question, was there ever anything more said about the "Sleeping Ones" living beneath the Paraelemental Plane of Ice? Such as their origin, identity, or the like? The size makes me think draeden, along the lines of Ulgurshek in the Abyss with a layer growing around him.
    Nothing more, no, though you're intended to think draedens. Because they're draedens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    We're back?!? HOORAY!!! \o/ So... What can you tell us about Vorel (the sister of Bahamut and Tiamat)?
    Nothing more than you already know. Vorel was added in as a Dragon God In The Refrigerator for backstory purposes, nothing more. Makes for some cool potential campaign ideas, though, if that's your jam.

    Do you know of any relations between Sardior and Bahamut/Tiamt?
    I would expect that relations between Sardior and Bahamut are limited and fairly cool but cordial. Tiamat probably ignores him except when trying to alternately exploit or subvert the Ruby Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    I still don't see why Levistus got it so easy.
    Who says he did?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    *cries tears of joy*

    IT HATH RETURNED!

    Are the Baatorians equivalent to the Obyriths (that is, born directly from the plane with no mortal souls involved) or like the Tanar'ri (that is, with mortal souls involved)?

    Found an idea on the old Planeswalker site that seems interesting:

    "I've always gotten a little bit of an Enuma Elish vibe out of the war between Chaos and Law - the Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider make a decent pair of (Babylonian) Tiamat/Kingu stand-ins, while the seven Wind Dukes correspond somewhat neatly to the seven winds that Marduk wielded. So I'm trying to play up the parallels there.
    <snip>
    So the eladrin having an outright hand in Obox-ob's downfall? Would fit in quite nicely to Chaos dividing itself much as the twin serpents of Law did. Specifically, it'd play to the Enuma Elish imagery again, putting Obox-ob in the place of Abzu, Kingu's murdered father and predecessor as Tiamat's consort. (And the eladrin or their predecessor(s) in the place of Ea, Marduk's father who had slain Abzu.)"

    And here's a short Wiki snippet for context:

    "Kingu, also spelled Qingu, meaning "unskilled laborer," was a god in Babylonian mythology, and — after the murder of his father Abzu — the consort of the goddess Tiamat, his mother, who wanted to establish him as ruler and leader of all gods before she was slain by Marduk. Tiamat gave Kingu the 3 Tablets of Destiny, which he wore as a breastplate and which gave him great power. She placed him as the general of her army. However, like Tiamat, Kingu was eventually slain by Marduk."

    Babylonian Tiamat wa heavily associated with the primordial Chaos of creation (fits with her creating the first Tanar'ri no?). The name Tiamat also has been claimed to be cognate with Northwest Semitic tehom (תהום) (the deeps, abyss).

    What do you think? Do you have your own ideas on expanding their fluff?

    The goblinoid races are kind of...crappy. Would you give them any boosts like that one web article did for kobolds.

    My understanding is that a Demon Lord is a demon that has become Unique but doesn't control a Layer of the abyss. A Demon Prince on the other hand is a Demon Lord that has gained control of an Abyssal Layer. The devil equivalents are the titles of Duke and the Archduke. Do the other planes have this distinction between Uniques? How does this work considering IRRC none of the other planes can be bonded to and controlled in that way (or does Mechanus have that relationship with Primus?)?

    Can natives of Planes besides the Outer Planes (elemental planes/astral/etc) attain Unique status? If so, how? Is this what the Archomentals are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Are the Baatorians equivalent to the Obyriths (that is, born directly from the plane with no mortal souls involved) or like the Tanar'ri (that is, with mortal souls involved)?
    They're definitely the latter, but it's pretty likely they're also the former.

    What do you think? Do you have your own ideas on expanding their fluff?
    I'm not sure whose fluff you're asking about. All you did was hurl stuff at me about Babylonian mythology, and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the Babylonian pantheon.

    The goblinoid races are kind of...crappy. Would you give them any boosts like that one web article did for kobolds.
    Ehh... I don't see a lot of reason to. Blues, definitely, since they get completely shafted for that +1 LA. I'd be more interested in racial weapons and suitable racial ACFs/prestige classes for goblinkind. Goblin rogues should all get Craven as a bonus feat, for instance.

    My understanding is that a Demon Lord is a demon that has become Unique but doesn't control a Layer of the abyss. A Demon Prince on the other hand is a Demon Lord that has gained control of an Abyssal Layer. The devil equivalents are the titles of Duke and the Archduke.
    Lord of the Nine. Not all of them use the title "archduke."

    Do the other planes have this distinction between Uniques?
    They could, in theory, were it relevant. There are likely several unique archons, for example, that are not members of the Hebdomad, and so on and so forth. In practice, it's not relevant, since only Celestia, Baator and the Abyss have layer rulers.

    Can natives of Planes besides the Outer Planes (elemental planes/astral/etc) attain Unique status?
    I'd hardly call it a "status" but I don't see why not.

    If so, how?
    Who knows? It's not like there's a huge reference pool of examples to draw from.

    Is this what the Archomentals are?
    I'd say it's rather likely.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    I hate gnomes.















    No really, hate the little buggers, like, Afro death stare turned to max setting hate. But that's not a question so let's see: what evidence do we have as to Garl Glittergolds actual existence as opposed to actually being a carefully orcestrated gnome myth/illusion? Gnomes, what are they good for (good gods, ya'll!).

    >%?#@}¿ gnomes.......
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    <snip>
    I'm not sure whose fluff you're asking about. All you did was hurl stuff at me about Babylonian mythology, and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the Babylonian pantheon.
    <snip>
    Basically that Real Life Babylonian mythology has a bunch of parallels to the dnd fluff about the Law/Chaos war and is thus fertile and interesting round for drawing inspiration on expanding the Law/Chaos war fluff. I'm asking whether you think the parallels (said in my above post) fit well or are just reaching badly. Also, whether you have better fluff in mind for the Law/Chaos war that goes in a different direction.

    Hm, actually, does this count as being under the ban against talking about RL religion on this forum .

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    Was "unique being" a fairly precisely defined term in 2e (or prior)? Was it purely a game term, or would it have been used in-setting?

    (I've always been under the impression that when 3.5 Gate specifies "unique beings" it was referring to a setting concept from previous editions that didn't explicitly get carried over.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I hate gnomes.
    Can't imagine why. Tinker gnomes are annoying, sure, but what's wrong with the others?

    what evidence do we have as to Garl Glittergolds actual existence as opposed to actually being a carefully orcestrated gnome myth/illusion?
    Other gods of serious power have met him. Now of course it's possible that all of the Lords of the Golden Hills are constructs-turned-deities...

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    ban
    Yeah I think we'll just not nudge that particular line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Was "unique being" a fairly precisely defined term in 2e (or prior)? Was it purely a game term, or would it have been used in-setting?
    I suspect it came from the Frequency line in monster descriptions - Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare and Unique. Of course, that doesn't help us so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    You know how obyriths all look horrifyingly wrong? Well.
    Horrifyingly right?

    I remembered my original questions, too. Crystal spheres.

    What's the largest size they can get up to? Solar system? Galaxy? Multiple galaxies? Pseudo-universal?

    What's the smallest size? Sun + planet or two + distance to spherewall, or even smaller?

    Is their size on the inside noticeable from the outside? Are some spheres "bigger on the inside"? Could they be measured by a spelljammer in the phlogiston?

    If two crystal spheres were to bump into each other by some fluke (is it possible to engineer it?), what would happen on impact? Would they just bounce off each other and drift apart, would they implode, would a conjunction happen...?

    On that Spelljammer flow chart, I spot "Thedas" (Dragon Age?) as well as Golarion (Pathfinder?). Are those fan-insertions, or are they actual worlds that just happen to have the same name?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    Horrifyingly right?
    You can't tell me that's not a horrifying concept.

    What's the largest size they can get up to?
    33.5 billion miles across is the largest sphere on record in Arcane Space.

    Solar system?
    Depends how you're deciding to measure that, but it's a reasonable notion.

    Galaxy?
    Pfft not even remotely close.

    What's the smallest size?
    Looks like roughly 1 billion miles. Maybe a hair under that.

    Is their size on the inside noticeable from the outside?
    If observation was that easy, then it would be theoretically possible. Of course you try telling me how many stories a building is by staring at its walls from an inch away.

    Are some spheres "bigger on the inside"?
    No.

    Could they be measured by a spelljammer in the phlogiston?
    Again, theoretically, but you really wouldn't want to do that.

    If two crystal spheres were to bump into each other by some fluke
    I believe that's happened.

    (is it possible to engineer it?)
    Not for a Jedi.

    what would happen on impact? Would they just bounce off each other and drift apart
    There you go.

    On that Spelljammer flow chart, I spot "Thedas" (Dragon Age?) as well as Golarion (Pathfinder?). Are those fan-insertions, or are they actual worlds that just happen to have the same name?
    There are a lot of fan insertions on that chart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Who says he did?
    ...So, he was frozen in an iceberg; but he wasn't just frozen in an iceberg.

    Am I understanding that correctly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    ...So, he was frozen in an iceberg; but he wasn't just frozen in an iceberg.

    Am I understanding that correctly?
    I don't see how that's insufficient, but sure.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

    hooray for a new thread! i'vs read the previous ones (not finished yet though) and enjoyed them very much

    Ssendam and Ygorl turned the slaad into colored frogs. Ignoring "true slaad" who are unaffected by this change (is it a thing?), is it likely to find another kind of slaadi? i mean, colored fish or colored birds as an uncreative example? i mean, can (not sure if its the right word in Limbo..) there be a new group of slaadi with common features who are not the MM slaadi?

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    Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.
    ...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies? I mean, what with the extremely large interstellar Prime and five dimensions and stack-of-plates infinite parallel realities and Outer Plane-creating Immortals and galaxies in the Elemental Planes and 2D Astral and "active" Draeden (they tend to leave things alone, but are still around and IIRC chat with the dragon rulers at time) and lack of gods and two-prong alignments (turning into five-prong Spheres when you get Immortal, with alignments ceasing to matter much) and whatnot?

    Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows" and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree, Mystara, or Eberron) be, well, different? It's not an accusation or anything, I'm just wondering why you have the stance you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    You can't tell me that's not a horrifying concept.
    I can, but it'd be a lie.

    The Refuge of Colour in the Plane of Radiance has as its rulers "King Black and Queen White" - the Inner Planes book describes them as unique in all the multiverse ("regal, birdlike humanoids"), and almost godlike in power. Is there anything more in particular that you know of them (any other places that detail them in any kind of specifics), or could speculate on? Are they similar in power to entities like demon lords, Lords of the Nine or Archomentals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    ...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies? I mean, what with the extremely large interstellar Prime and five dimensions and stack-of-plates infinite parallel realities and Outer Plane-creating Immortals and galaxies in the Elemental Planes and 2D Astral and "active" Draeden (they tend to leave things alone, but are still around and IIRC chat with the dragon rulers at time) and lack of gods and two-prong alignments (turning into five-prong Spheres when you get Immortal, with alignments ceasing to matter much) and whatnot?

    Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows" and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree, Mystara, or Eberron) be, well, different? It's not an accusation or anything, I'm just wondering why you have the stance you have.
    Ehm... I can't speak for Fro, but that's the stance 2E's Planescape has. Planescape is really the only "serious" multiversal campaign setting to exist in any version of D&D, and as such is considered the primary source regarding anything planar by pretty much anyone who's "seriously" talking about the Planes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by galan View Post
    hooray for a new thread! i'vs read the previous ones (not finished yet though) and enjoyed them very much
    Glad to hear it! Always fun to see a new fan.

    Ssendam and Ygorl turned the slaad into colored frogs. Ignoring "true slaad" who are unaffected by this change (is it a thing?)
    It's a thing.

    is it likely to find another kind of slaadi? i mean, colored fish or colored birds as an uncreative example? i mean, can (not sure if its the right word in Limbo..) there be a new group of slaadi with common features who are not the MM slaadi?
    There's nothing canonical to support it, but on the other hand whether or not they're bound by the Spawning Stone they're still slaad. If you wanted to roll with it, that's really all the justification you'd need; Ssendam and Ygorl were more concerned (if that's even the word) with the power and potential of other slaad. They weren't just really into Rainbow Connection. I doubt the Stone cares whether slaad are frogs as long as they're not exceeding the power threshold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    ...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies?
    I go mad. Rapidly. Repeatedly.

    I mean, what with the Mystara stuff
    If you're very devoted to that sort of thing, you're of course welcome to ignore me and my position. Most of Mystara's features can be reasonably recontextualized as unique features of, for instance, its coterminous astral region, or its region of arcane space (the Mystaran Cluster) and sphere wall. It shares gods and demon lords with the rest of the multiverse, even though the rules they operate under are different within the sphere (a function of Mystara's overdeity), and if that makes them function as Immortals, well, Mystara's demonstrably valuable enough to such beings to play by those rules (note how many new Immortals ascend within that world). There's also cross-pollination in the other direction; draedens exist in the Great Wheel cosmology, and other entities from Mystara and the BECMI rules do as well. It seems reasonable to me that Mystara is connected to the Great Wheel somehow, and not merely as an alternate Prime.

    Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows"
    I find it lazy. Mind you, I don't use Eberron or Mystara, so...

    and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree
    No, that one's a load of crap. FR is an integral component of Planescape, and honestly I'd say vice-versa with regard to a fair chunk of its fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    The Refuge of Colour in the Plane of Radiance has as its rulers "King Black and Queen White" - the Inner Planes book describes them as unique in all the multiverse ("regal, birdlike humanoids"), and almost godlike in power. Is there anything more in particular that you know of them (any other places that detail them in any kind of specifics), or could speculate on? Are they similar in power to entities like demon lords, Lords of the Nine or Archomentals?
    That mention is all that has been written on them, but it's likely they're cognate to archomentals or else demigods of a sort.
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    So after a completely accidental exchange with Eldan earlier in the Law/Chaos thread I ended up poking around Warriors of Heaven and something I hadn't recall jumped out at me for all the wrong reasons. It mentioned that a fallen celestial could be transformed into a Nupperibo, which surprised me. I guess with enough wibbly wobbly evily weevily you can take a creature of pure good (if a fallen celestial could be called pure good at that point) and turn it into pure evil but seemed off, especially in that Nupperibo's are kinda kill on sight. I suspect this is mostly an edition issue but figured I'd bring it up since it's peaked my curiosity. What would a fallen celestial turned Nupperibo then allowed to fully develop result in
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    So after a completely accidental exchange with Eldan earlier in the Law/Chaos thread I ended up poking around Warriors of Heaven
    Oh that's rarely a good idea

    It mentioned that a fallen celestial could be transformed into a Nupperibo, which surprised me.
    Well I mean, theoretically if they're not doing it hands-on and it loses enough power... but honestly, I'd say it doesn't ever happen and that the writer just looked at a list and said "oh hey that works."

    What would a fallen celestial turned Nupperibo then allowed to fully develop result in
    A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    If you're very devoted to that sort of thing, you're of course welcome to ignore me and my position. Most of Mystara's features can be reasonably recontextualized as unique features of, for instance, its coterminous astral region, or its region of arcane space (the Mystaran Cluster) and sphere wall. It shares gods and demon lords with the rest of the multiverse, even though the rules they operate under are different within the sphere (a function of Mystara's overdeity), and if that makes them function as Immortals, well, Mystara's demonstrably valuable enough to such beings to play by those rules (note how many new Immortals ascend within that world). There's also cross-pollination in the other direction; draedens exist in the Great Wheel cosmology, and other entities from Mystara and the BECMI rules do as well. It seems reasonable to me that Mystara is connected to the Great Wheel somehow, and not merely as an alternate Prime.
    Myself, I'm a fan of the theory that says that the Mystaran multiverse is the Great Wheel displaced in time. Specifically, it's the GW way back in the past. Is that theory yours, Fro? I vividly remember it from a past thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all.
    On that note, what happens to fallen celestials or risen fiends in general? Do they mostly spend eternity in a conflicted state (i.e. made up of the stuff of one alignment, but clinging to the opposing alignment?), or do they gravitate towards the plane of their chosen alignment, and slowly change into a different kind of exemplar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Myself, I'm a fan of the theory that says that the Mystaran multiverse is the Great Wheel displaced in time. Specifically, it's the GW way back in the past. Is that theory yours, Fro? I vividly remember it from a past thread.
    Indeedy. Always liked that conceit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadline View Post
    On that note, what happens to fallen celestials or risen fiends in general? Do they mostly spend eternity in a conflicted state (i.e. made up of the stuff of one alignment, but clinging to the opposing alignment?), or do they gravitate towards the plane of their chosen alignment, and slowly change into a different kind of exemplar?
    They're entities made of X who believe in Y. It's a tough existence. There's a transformation, yes, but it's not a transformation into a particular kind of being, but rather more like... out of a particular kind of being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Oh that's rarely a good idea
    Oh I don't know, its got somethings down pat and others are.......interesting let's say. Honestly I'm probably going to reread it now so if you're not interested in questions on it just say the word.



    Well I mean, theoretically if they're not doing it hands-on and it loses enough power... but honestly, I'd say it doesn't ever happen and that the writer just looked at a list and said "oh hey that works."
    Honestly it did strike me as a hands on approach but your probably spot on regards to the writer not digging into it too deeply.



    [
    A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all.
    Well that's rather disappointing, seems like a good excuse for some gobbldy-****. Ah well, them's the breaks I suppose. Edit: wait, I get ancient baatorians were pretty powerful, but should I take from this they're on par with Balors?

    BTW, still very curious about your head Canon as relates to what's in the ghoresh chasm under the seal.
    Last edited by Brookshw; 2014-09-18 at 07:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Oh I don't know, its got somethings down pat and others are.......interesting let's say. Honestly I'm probably going to reread it now so if you're not interested in questions on it just say the word.
    Let's just say it's not a book I'm very friendly to. Because it's very very stupid.

    Edit: wait, I get ancient baatorians were pretty powerful, but should I take from this they're on par with Balors?
    Some would be, yes. They were apparently quite terrifying.

    BTW, still very curious about your head Canon as relates to what's in the ghoresh chasm under the seal.
    Ever wondered why there's no evil counterpart to angels?
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