afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

[afroakuma]

I just don't get why people are so enamored of modrons. They look really creepy to me with those fleshy lips and eyes poking out of metal casings.

They're outsiders; as Eldan mentioned not too recently, a sense of the alien should be present with them. In some ways, they embody conceptual, imagined structure given life - highly symmetrical, embodying familiar shapes with understood physical properties. Inevitables look like enforcers; modrons look like geometry come alive.

Of course, there's also the other factors to consider; nostalgia, canon, the fact that they're just so awesomely goofy and yet still surprisingly dangerous, and the fact that they make things a lot less "generic coolness" by being around, because even the coolest modron is still a weird weird creature.

[Tragak]

Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything?

Headcanon if you're interested: Arcadia is Europe, Mechanus is Australia, Formians are rabbits

Formians might originally be from Arcadia, but Mechanus is ultimately better suited to them, so the Formians who moved to Mechanus have more influence over Mechanus than those who stayed in Arcadia have over Arcadia.

[Milo v3]

Headcanon if you're interested: Arcadia is Europe, Mechanus is Australia, Formians are rabbits

Formians might originally be from Arcadia, but Mechanus is ultimately better suited to them, so the Formians who moved to Mechanus have more influence over Mechanus than those who stayed in Arcadia have over Arcadia.

Mechanus... Australia....

Canceri seems fitting actually now that I think about it.....

[Eldan]

Unless I remember incorrectly, the Formians were first moved to Mechanus by accident, when part of Arcadia fell. They didn't expand there on purpose. In fact, they probably couldn't.

Personaly, if I could choose, my preferred template for lawful outsider would be the Moignos. Wonderfully alien. And very lawful.

For anyone wondering, they are living, two-dimensional embodiments of mathematical equations.

[Tragak]

Mechanus... Australia....

Canceri seems fitting actually now that I think about it.....

Yeah, there is that. I think that Australia=Mechanus works well enough as a metaphor when talking about Australia through the lens of the Formians, but Australia=Carceri makes a lot more sense for talking about Australia itself.

Unless I remember incorrectly, the Formians were first moved to Mechanus by accident, when part of Arcadia fell.

Ooooooh, that's brilliant.

[afroakuma]

Personaly, if i could choose, my preferred template for lawful outsider would be the moignos. Wonderfully alien. And very lawful.

ur2b² 4ur!'

[Psyren]

They're outsiders; as Eldan mentioned not too recently, a sense of the alien should be present with them. In some ways, they embody conceptual, imagined structure given life - highly symmetrical, embodying familiar shapes with understood physical properties. Inevitables look like enforcers; modrons look like geometry come alive.

Of course, there's also the other factors to consider; nostalgia, canon, the fact that they're just so awesomely goofy and yet still surprisingly dangerous, and the fact that they make things a lot less "generic coolness" by being around, because even the coolest modron is still a weird weird creature.

Eh, I get plenty "sense of the alien" looking at a Marut or Zelekhut. And rather than "generic cool," I think inevitables are just plain cool. Similarly, I love what PF did with the Formians art-wise in B4.

I like the idea of Modrons being living geometry, but they still look too fleshy for me. Especially since "geometry" implies straight lines, but the fleshy bits just look too squishy.

[afroakuma]

Eh, I get plenty "sense of the alien" looking at a Marut or Zelekhut.

I just don't see it, myself. They're just more big metal construct things.

I like the idea of Modrons being living geometry, but they still look too fleshy for me. Especially since "geometry" implies straight lines, but the fleshy bits just look too squishy.

I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

[Eldan]

I was looking for a specific bit of modron art and found This thread on Planewalker, which is quite amusing and full of quite strange planar theories that are apparently in 5E.

And this nice piece of art from 5E, the Great Modron March:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...ds/image-5.jpg

Seems most of the Modrons as drawn by Squaff are no longer online, but here's one, the Nonaton:

Spoiler

Show

[Psyren]

^ See, just look at that thing. Its visual design is all over the place, and the gauges/lights on the front are definitely not symmetrical. The inner workings are practically exposed. How can someone look at that mess and think "perfection or even "Law?"

I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

That does look much closer to what I would consider a modron should be.

[Eldan]

Why would law have to be symmetrical? "Efficiency over aesthetics" also seems quite lawful to me.

[Psyren]

Why would law have to be symmetrical? "Efficiency over aesthetics" also seems quite lawful to me.

Because asymmetry is Chaos' thing,

[Milo v3]

^ See, just look at that thing. Its visual design is all over the place, and the gauges/lights on the front are definitely not symmetrical. How can someone look at that mess and think "Law?"

I assume they'd try to write nine in a manner that was symmetrical rather than IX, probably more like:

...
...
...

Writing IX or 9 on a being physically constructed from LAW just feels weird to me... Though... if they decided roman numerals are the correct way to order them, then their is no way they'd just change it for 9....

[Eldan]

I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

That looks terribly boring and generic. A humanoid metal thing with glowing eyes? Really? Fantasy is full of those and I want my outsiders to be strange-looking. There's too many humanoids in the planes already (looking at you, all of Good).

Honestly, if I redesigned the planes, we'd have eye-covered wheels for angels and properly living mathematics and geometry for law. And similarly otherworldly designs for everyone else.

[Psyren]

That looks terribly boring and generic. A humanoid metal thing with glowing eyes? Really? Fantasy is full of those and I want my outsiders to be strange-looking. There's too many humanoids in the planes already (looking at you, all of Good).

Honestly, if I redesigned the planes, we'd have eye-covered wheels for angels and properly living mathematics and geometry for law. And similarly otherworldly designs for everyone else.

Law is supposed to be boring. Have you ever been to a city council meeting? Ever read a technical manual or detailed court ruling? Do you remember the Central Bureaucracy from Futurama?

: "I'll take dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty any day of the week."

[afroakuma]

That looks terribly boring and generic.

Yes it does, but I meant a better interpretation of the original designs than just smacking some clockwork on them and calling it a day. I still think they need a redesign generally.

Law is supposed to be boring.

That's an overly narrow and Prime view of "law." Law as a primal force is far more vast and alien. So is Chaos, for that matter.

[Psyren]

It's a simplified view, sure, but it's not that far off the mark. Whether it's a Prime magistrate enforcing a trade agreement, or a Kolyarut investigating the validity of a devil's claim on a mage's soul, they're both still dealing with byzantine contract law; one is certainly more fantastic than the other and the stakes are much higher, but just as dry when you get right down to it.

[afroakuma]

It's a simplified view, sure, but it's not that far off the mark.

I disagree.

Anyway, door's open for more questions.

[Eldan]

Law is supposed to be boring. Have you ever been to a city council meeting? Ever read a technical manual or detailed court ruling? Do you remember the Central Bureaucracy from Futurama?

: "I'll take dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty any day of the week."

Yes, yes and yes, and in fact I often find them exciting. Scientist, you know. I spend my days reading technical reports.

[Psyren]

I disagree.

Anyway, door's open for more questions.

Okay.

As a matter of fact I did have a couple - about my favorite outsiders of all, genies.

1) A strategy I often see come up in optimization discussions is that efreet, marids and other wish-granting entities can work out bargains with non-genie entities ahead of time to mess with wizards who try to bind them. This allows them to either use up their wishes ahead of time (to avoid having to grant any to uppity mortals), or work out elaborate revenge in case the mortal wishes for something that the genie would prefer not to grant. Is this a thing that happens in the fluff at all, or are efreet generally nonchalant about who gets their wishes and when?

2) Janni, based on my reading, are widely considered the red-headed stepchild of geniekind. Why is that, and do they have any special advantages at all? Or do they purely exist to be the buttmonkey to "real" genies?

3) Are there any other cool kinds of genies besides the big 4 elemental types?

4) What's the deal with the City of Brass? The Sultan's powers are vague hints at best, yet it's implied that he's not somebody you want to mess with - perhaps on par with notables like the Lords of Nine. How strong is this guy really, and is there any more information about hiim? Is the position more fluid with all their intrigue, or has it been the same guy all this time.

[Eldan]

I can only think of the Khayal, the shadow Djinn.

Also, Al-Kadim had something like 50 million varieties of Djinn for different tasks. So if you ever need an income tax accountant djinn, look there.

[afroakuma]

1) A strategy I often see come up in optimization discussions is that efreet, marids and other wish-granting entities can work out bargains with non-genie entities ahead of time to mess with wizards who try to bind them. This allows them to either use up their wishes ahead of time (to avoid having to grant any to uppity mortals), or work out elaborate revenge in case the mortal wishes for something that the genie would prefer not to grant. Is this a thing that happens in the fluff at all, or are efreet generally nonchalant about who gets their wishes and when?

It went unaddressed for a long time (because genies get so little love) but Al-Qadim had a sourcebook, Secrets of the Lamp, that established that wish-granting genies are pretty smart about how those wishes get used. If you come after one with Lojban or a book of legalese or a thoroughly-annotated contract, they're well within their rights to ask that you simplify or clarify, since they're the ones actually casting the wish. They'll also feign ignorance or weakness in an attempt to convince gullible summoners to pare it down, and they'll plan ahead with allies (excluding devils) to spend wishes in crafty ways that profit themselves. The Sultan of the Efreet has certain standards about what efreet should and should not be granting, for instance (no wishes for devils), since he's got a legitimate worry that his people will be enslaved en masse if mortals are allowed to abuse them.

In general, descriptions of genies that go in-depth seriously limit methods of abuse and make it clear that they can push back on wishes if they want to. Noble djinn, for instance, are noted for slacking on wish fulfillment when they don't respect the person commanding them, and neglecting their duties entirely if the binder doesn't heed their counsel.

I thiiiiink it mentioned somewhere that some genies actually trick a mortal early in life into burning out their wish power altogether, i.e.

Genie, I wish to be the most powerful sorcerer... IN THE WOOOOOOOORLD!

That's nice. Now what can I do for you?

2) Janni, based on my reading, are widely considered the red-headed stepchild of geniekind. Why is that, and do they have any special advantages at all? Or do they purely exist to be the buttmonkey to "real" genies?

Janni are based on the entities of the same name from mythology, who were classed as the weakest of their kind and partitioned into the group "those who travel about ceaselessly." In D&D fluff, the reason is because they are composed of all the elements and so belong to none. As for special advantages, they do have the inbound capacity to survive on the Elemental Planes, which I think could have been codified much better if Core contained any of the spells from the MotP but still suggests they're not affected by the traits of those planes.

Ignoring that, buttmonkeys.

3) Are there any other cool kinds of genies besides the big 4 elemental types?

Eldan mentioned the khayal, the genies of Shadow. There's also one kind of genie that's particularly cool - the qorrash, or ice genie. They you've got the tasked genies from Al-Qadim, which are transformed variants of the main four that have become specialized to the various duties to which they are bound. There are quite a number of them.

4) What's the deal with the City of Brass? The Sultan's powers are vague hints at best, yet it's implied that he's not somebody you want to mess with - perhaps on par with notables like the Lords of Nine. How strong is this guy really, and is there any more information about hiim? Is the position more fluid with all their intrigue, or has it been the same guy all this time.

The position is described as a fluid one, rife with treachery and betrayals. The Sultan is definitely a figure of some power, just as the Khan of the Dao, the Caliph of the Djinn and the Padisha of the Marid are. Let's see what I have on him...

So the Great Sultan of the Efreet (Lord of Flame, Incandescent Potentate, the Tempering and Eternal Flame of Truth, Fuel of the Unquenchable Legions, Most Puissant of Hunters, Marshall of the Order of the Fiery Heart, the Smoldering Dictator, the Crimson Firebrand) is an advanced noble efreeti whose powers include maximum hit points, control over all of the spells of the "province of fire magics" once per day apiece, the ability to bring forth flames of justice at will. He's surrounded by flames and a halo of poisonous, choking smoke. His clothing, which must withstand his fire, is often woven with adamantite and accords him a very high AC relative to its weight. He is capable of transforming into a massive firestorm and if he has to visit another plane will prefer to appear in this form first. His coterie tends to range from 25 to more than 100 efreet at any given time. When visiting one of the efreet Pashas, his retinue can exceed 600 members.

It's probable that he's decked out with fireproof magic items and some minor artifacts, but nothing is mentioned.

[Psyren]

This has been great, thank you!

It went unaddressed for a long time (because genies get so little love) but Al-Qadim had a sourcebook, Secrets of the Lamp, that established that wish-granting genies are pretty smart about how those wishes get used. If you come after one with Lojban or a book of legalese or a thoroughly-annotated contract, they're well within their rights to ask that you simplify or clarify, since they're the ones actually casting the wish. They'll also feign ignorance or weakness in an attempt to convince gullible summoners to pare it down, and they'll plan ahead with allies (including devils) to spend wishes in crafty ways that profit themselves.

Whoa, they can do that? "No hablo ingles" and just make you paraphrase until you get to something broad enough for them to screw? Are there any safe wishes at all then? (RAW aside.)

I thiiiiink it mentioned somewhere that some genies actually trick a mortal early in life into burning out their wish power altogether.

Wait, "burning out?" Isn't it on a per-year cooldown, but otherwise not limited?

Ignoring that, buttmonkeys.

Bummer.

Eldan mentioned the khayal, the genies of Shadow. There's also one kind of genie that's particularly cool - the qorrash, or ice genie. They you've got the tasked genies from Al-Qadim, which are transformed variants of the main four that have become specialized to the various duties to which they are bound. There are quite a number of them.

Can all of these grant wishes? Any besides the Janni that can't?

If I were a mortal looking to bind a genie with the least mean streak to avoid wish-screw, which one would you recommend? Or should I just not bother and try to get Wish myself?

The position is described as a fluid one, rife with treachery and betrayals. The Sultan is definitely a figure of some power, just as the Khan of the Dao, the Caliph of the Djinn and the Padisha of the Marid are. Let's see what I have on him...

So the Great Sultan of the Efreet (Lord of Flame, Incandescent Potentate, the Tempering and Eternal Flame of Truth, Fuel of the Unquenchable Legions, Most Puissant of Hunters, Marshall of the Order of the Fiery Heart, the Smoldering Dictator, the Crimson Firebrand) is an advanced noble efreeti whose powers include maximum hit points, control over all of the spells of the "province of fire magics" once per day apiece, the ability to bring forth flames of justice at will. He's surrounded by flames and a halo of poisonous, choking smoke. His clothing, which must withstand his fire, is often woven with adamantite and accords him a very high AC relative to its weight. He is capable of transforming into a massive firestorm and if he has to visit another plane will prefer to appear in this form first. His coterie tends to range from 25 to more than 100 efreet at any given time. When visiting one of the efreet Pashas, his retinue can exceed 600 members.

It's probable that he's decked out with fireproof magic items and some minor artifacts, but nothing is mentioned.

Cool. What are "flames of justice?" Any idea what kinds of goodies might be in his treasure vault, like specific artifacts? Does he have a name in any source? I'm guessing that in PF he might be synonymous with Ahriman but I'm not sure if that's the case in D&D.

Other genie questions:

1) Do you have similar info on the other three genie leaders? Do Jann have a leader?

2) Marids are described as the strongest, even moreso than Efreet. Is this coming from mythology or is there a D&D reason behind it? And given that the efreets are such jerks to... well, anything that isn't an efreet, why don't the other three gang up on them?

3) Is the correct power hierarchy as follows: Marids > Efreet > Djinn > Dao > Jann?

4) Any more info on Sha'irs besides what is in Dragon Compendium?

5) What relationship, if any, do the efreet have with the major players in the lower planes like Asmodeus and Orcus? And do the other genie types have any other famous extraplanar contacts they maintain?

6) Can any genies grant miracles?

[afroakuma]

This has been great, thank you!

I aim to please, as always.

Whoa, they can do that? "No hablo ingles" and just make you paraphrase until you get to something broad enough for them to screw? Are there any safe wishes at all then? (RAW aside.)

If it's straightforward and they can understand you, magical compulsion can force them to obey. It's when you start making it complicated that they're allowed to stall you or ask you to make your request more clear. Remember that a genie using wish isn't just "open box, insert text;" you tell the genie what you want, the genie actually punches in your desires, as it were. If the genie can't understand you or has a specific (and incorrect) understanding of what you describe, no amount of legalese will cover you. The safest wishes are the most straightforward ones with maybe one or two provisos for keeping yourself alive - a genie cannot simply add "but you're dead" to the end of wish fulfillment, and most of them really do just want to get it over with. "You want a vorpal sword? Fine, whatever. Here it is, I could have stuck it through your neck but I didn't want you resurrecting and coming to pester me again. Are we done?" That sort of thing.

Wait, "burning out?" Isn't it on a per-year cooldown, but otherwise not limited?

"I wish that you could no longer grant wishes!"

Sort of a crafty twist on the Aladdin formula.

Can all of these grant wishes? Any besides the Janni that can't?

I don't know that any of the tasked genies can grant wishes... mayyyybe there's one or two, but most of them are far more specialized in their powers. Neither khayals nor qorrash can grant wishes.

If I were a mortal looking to bind a genie with the least mean streak to avoid wish-screw, which one would you recommend? Or should I just not bother and try to get Wish myself?

If your wish is fairly safe and you can set conditions to avoid the obvious screw, you should be fine with any genie. A noble djinni is still the safest bet though.

Cool. What are "flames of justice?"

Looks like a spell from Al-Qadim. I'll have to follow up on this one.

Any idea what kinds of goodies might be in his treasure vault, like specific artifacts?

No, but again I can follow up.

Does he have a name in any source?

He does, actually! Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazen.

1) Do you have similar info on the other three genie leaders? Do Jann have a leader?

Alrighty, here we go:

The Great Khan of the Dao, titles titles titles, Balancer of All Earthly Accounts, is an advanced noble dao who commands "all the spells of the province of sand magic" to use once per day per spell. Listening to him speak for a round has the effect of a suggestion. Maximum hit points, maze 1/month, and of course the unique and dangerous immunity he holds to any weapon of metal or stone, even if enchanted. When he arrives on the Prime, his mere approach is marked with a tremendous and devastating earthquake. As he moves, tremors dance in the ground below, and when he crosses the desert a sandstorm arises.

He's also a complete Richard.

The Great Caliph of the Djinn, titles titles titles, Commander of the Four Winds, is an advanced noble djinn with maximum hit points, who commands "all the spells of the province of wind magic" once per day. He is eternally surrounded by a wind that manifests as a gentle breeze unless a ranged weapon is directed against him - he is impossible to strike with any missile weapon. Even magic missiles will be dispersed by his protective wind. A huge blast of wind announces his arrival on the Prime, although his travel is usually subdued by comparison.

The Great Padisha of the Marids, titles titles titles, Maharaja of the Oceans, is a very advanced noble marid with maximum hit points, who has control of "all spells of the province of the sea" once per day. It is difficult to deceive her, for she has a permanent detect lie power at all times. She has demonstrated the ability to alter her form casually, changing her looks, skin color and hair. The Padisha is immune to any spell involving water, ice, steam or electricity.

There is no one racial leader of the jann, largely because there's no jann homeland and the race is scattered. Individual tribes are ruled by sheiks, and large congregations by amirs. There may one day be a Great Nawab of the Jann (Negus? Malik? Pharaoh?) but currently none exists.

2) Marids are described as the strongest, even moreso than Efreet. Is this coming from mythology

Yes indeed. The only one that doesn't strictly figure in mythology is the dao, which... I don't know where they got that. Working on it, still don't know though.

And given that the efreets are such jerks to... well, anything that isn't an efreet, why don't the other three gang up on them?

Because djinn hate dao, dao hate djinn and marids don't care about any of them.

3) Is the correct power hierarchy as follows: Marids > Efreet > Djinn > Dao > Jann?

Dao > Djinn, otherwise correct.

4) Any more info on Sha'irs besides what is in Dragon Compendium?

Probably a bit, but I'll need to find that book. Don't have them with me right now, I'm running off of memory.

5) What relationship, if any, do the efreet have with the major players in the lower planes like Asmodeus and Orcus? And do the other genie types have any other famous extraplanar contacts they maintain?

The efreet maintain trade relationships and loose alliances with a number of major devils. The rest largely eschew dealings with the movers and shakers of the Outer Planes.

6) Can any genies grant miracles?

No.

[afroakuma]

Some follow-ups:

• Jann have at least one advantage over other genies: they cannot be bound in genie traps.

• Flame of justice is a really entertaining spell, it turns out. The caster compels the subject to speak only in truths, and to hide no information and refrain from silence when a question is asked. For each untruth that is spoken, the subject burns with supernatural flame. Ordinarily you get ten questions over ten minutes, but the Sultan has it as an at-will spell-like ability and, well, he gets to ask as much as he likes. Given the properties of efreet in 2E compared to 3E, it's likely that the Sultan's flames of justice penetrate fire resistance and immunity.

• In terms of artifacts the Great Sultan might possess, it's fairly likely that he has in his possession one of the fifteen Artifurnaces, though not in use at this time. It's also very likely that he has, or had at one point, in his collection the Book With No End. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and the Obsidian Man might also be in his vaults, or have at least passed through them.

• Genie wishes are actually quite well-defined in Secrets of the Lamp to have quite a few limitations. Sometimes genies themselves don't know how a wish will play out. In terms of the classic screw-you of conjuring the requested magical item out of the possession of a current owner, that's actually codified: genies cannot make permanent items wholecloth and have to whisk them out of somewhere else.

[Psyren]

Good stuff as usual, thanks again.

• Flame of justice is a really entertaining spell, it turns out. The caster compels the subject to speak only in truths, and to hide no information and refrain from silence when a question is asked. For each untruth that is spoken, the subject burns with supernatural flame. Ordinarily you get ten questions over ten minutes, but the Sultan has it as an at-will spell-like ability and, well, he gets to ask as much as he likes. Given the properties of efreet in 2E compared to 3E, it's likely that the Sultan's flames of justice penetrate fire resistance and immunity.

It sounds like he would use this on you to force you to make a wish. Kinda like the Heart's Desire ability from PF. So Efreet, at least powerful ones, have a way of accessing their wish power without making bargains with other entities...?

• In terms of artifacts the Great Sultan might possess, it's fairly likely that he has in his possession one of the fifteen Artifurnaces, though not in use at this time. It's also very likely that he has, or had at one point, in his collection the Book With No End. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and the Obsidian Man might also be in his vaults, or have at least passed through them.

Now you've got my curiosity piqued, what do these do?

• Genie wishes are actually quite well-defined in Secrets of the Lamp to have quite a few limitations. Sometimes genies themselves don't know how a wish will play out. In terms of the classic screw-you of conjuring the requested magical item out of the possession of a current owner, that's actually codified: genies cannot make permanent items wholecloth and have to whisk them out of somewhere else.

Is it just another location in space, within the same reality, or can they go further afield? How about pulling an item across time? Or did it not go that far in depth?

[afroakuma]

It sounds like he would use this on you to force you to make a wish. Kinda like the Heart's Desire ability from PF. So Efreet, at least powerful ones, have a way of accessing their wish power without making bargains with other entities...?

It's certainly possible. Unlike the lower-level version of the spell, flame of justice interprets "truth" through the caster's mind. However, if he doesn't actually believe you wish to bring him gold and jewels, he can't actually compel you to say that.

Now you've got my curiosity piqued, what do these do?

The Artifurnaces are powerful spelljamming engines that channel motive power from another artifact trapped within them. The Book With No End is a powerful magical tome that drives its users toward world domination. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd is a powerful suit of mail that endows its wearer with the means and desire to become a hero. The Obsidian Man is a deadly colossus, a statue that can come to life and rampage across worlds.

Is it just another location in space, within the same reality, or can they go further afield? How about pulling an item across time? Or did it not go that far in depth?

Didn't go in-depth on most of that, but it did specify that genies cannot alter the distant past or the future.

[afroakuma]

Anything more I can do for anyone? Or am I closing this one early?

[Svata]

I've got one more about genies, Efreet specifically. If they were to secure a foothold on a plane they wer planning to invade (for whatever reason), how would they go about it from there?

[Milo v3]

Is there any known Efreeti/Salamander hybrid?