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    Default Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    So I was thinking about using a Lich in a camping and I had the idea(after reading lotfp Qelong) that his soul is sealed in a atomic bomb like magical artifact that was used in a demigod war long time ago.

    If the players want to kill the Lich emperor who is terrorizing the realm they will destroy a big part of it in the process.

    It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it? So I can prepare something in advance.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that don't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it?

    Remove the core of fissile material and defuse it.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Teleport/gate it somewhere it can't do too much damage

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Along Killer Angel's suggestion, simply remove the detonator, then dismantle the now safe (well safer) bomb.

    A little more risky and it depends on exactly what the design of the bomb is, but destroying it in a controlled explosion may also be possible.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Military grade explosives are specifically designed to avoid accidental explosion. It's simply impossible for plastic to explode by shooting it. An atomic bomb design probably follow the same general idea. The only difference is the nature of the payload, wich might release harmful radiation if the bomb structure is breached.
    Defusing the bomb should be like disarming a trap IMO. The difficulty would be high because your players don't know how to do it, but if it's some kind of military device, it's relatively safe to poke around. Think about that scene in Goldfinger, where Bond has no idea what to do and the expert stop the bomb simply by pushing a button : that is actually realistic.
    But if it was specifically designed to prevent defusing, any amount of explosion trigger mechanisms are fair game, and detonating the bomb suddenly sounds much safer since it grants a better control on when and where that "maybe on my face if I fail".
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Plane shift to the abyss, then detonate it deliberately.

    Two birds with one stone.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Military grade explosives are specifically designed to avoid accidental explosion. It's simply impossible for plastic to explode by shooting it. An atomic bomb design probably follow the same general idea. The only difference is the nature of the payload, wich might release harmful radiation if the bomb structure is breached.
    Pretty much this from what I've read. Worst case scenarios on diffusing an atom bomb is that one or more of the explosive packets connected to the detonator goes off and kills everyone in the room (and might irradiate the building if the core gets breached). Though the idea of a lich using this as his Phylactery is pretty awesome.

    But if the bomb had to be detonated to destroy it, then the PCs' best bet is to bury it on a remote island. Oh and contact the United Nations (or whatever powers-that-be are who run the known world). Might be a good idea to let everyone know you're going to set this thing off so no one panics.
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2014-09-17 at 06:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    So if I read you correctly, it's not actually an atom bomb, but some kind of ancient magical explosive WMD.

    As others have said, nuclear devices are built to fail safe, rather than fail deadly. If this thing was built by a military, I see no reason for the protocol to have changed.

    OTOH, if the spells the lich put on the device make it so that it requires something akin to the force of detonation to destroy, that's a different thing entirely. The best answer I can give you there is to put it someplace you either don't care about or don't like, or that doesn't have anything important to destroy, before you detonate it. The Abyss was mentioned, but someplace like the elemental plane of fire or the negative energy plane might work too.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    As was asked about in another thread, drop it into lava (which is an accepted way of getting rid of artefacts anyway, just ask Gandalf ) - the worst case scenario is that the initiating explosive charges will cook off in a random manner due to differential heating, and thus won't create a critical mass, merely expel the fissile material into the magma.

    Although you may want time stop and teleport spells prepared, just in case.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    So I was thinking about using a Lich in a camping and I had the idea(after reading lotfp Qelong) that his soul is sealed in a atomic bomb like magical artifact that was used in a demigod war long time ago.

    If the players want to kill the Lich emperor who is terrorizing the realm they will destroy a big part of it in the process.

    It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it? So I can prepare something in advance.
    I'll go out on a limb and assume that by saying you want it to be an atomic bomb like artifact, you're looking for a replication of the effect of a really big bomb, and not the replication of a really big bomb's technical operation.

    Artifacts have special rules, so whether or not it can even be defused in a way that doesn't detonate it is entirely up to you.

    But if it can be moved, someone could always dump it in a bag of holding, plane shift (or teleport) it somewhere, then detonate it there. Or portable hole + bag of holding. Or use disjunction. Or any other destroy/lose anything methods.

    I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment on me and fail my save.

    It's not certain if the delayed spell would trigger it while I was imprisoned, but if it did I would be impervious to the harm it caused. If the delayed spell was also frozen (so that it instead triggers one round after freedom is cast), we're still going to have the lich regenerate (potentially) inside the same prison I'm in, only to be immediately obliterated if he's ever released. Divinations could tell if the plan worked as intended to allow for the character's release.

    That's not an ideal solution, as the worst case scenario means the right freedom spell could kill everyone within a big region. But hey, ending a campaign by building a statue of the nameless hero on the wrong spot (to throw off people trying to do this) would be a pretty cool way to end a campaign.

    There's probably sillier solutions out there that wouldn't require the ambiguous rules to be interpreted in a way favorable for me. That's just what I thought of.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    It sort of depends on how the artifact is triggered/destroyed. Presumably the original creators had a method of remote detonation, so they could destroy the god-killing abomination/their neighbors without being destroyed themselves. Presumably, it also would not inflict significant damage to the planet itself (as the creators would presumably still want to live there). So really, all it takes in putting the device somewhere its detonation will cause no damage, and trigger the thing. It's actually easier to safely dispose of this sort of thing in a fantasy world than in the modern day. Open a Dimension Door* to a location 1 AU directly "north" of the Sun, toss the thing through, and trigger the detonation. Problem solved, lich destroyed.

    *Or Teleport Object. Or one of the host of other spells that will do the same thing.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2014-09-17 at 08:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment on me...
    If you have something like Imprisonment at hand, cast it on the god-damn Lich and don't worry about the phylactery.

    Seriously. Spells like that were made for precisely this sort of annoying, unkillable enemies.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Plane Shift it to the positive energy plane, then kill the lich.

    Or put it in a portable hole, seal it up, then toss the hole in a bag of holding.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Make the Phylactery the trigger for a bomb far away from where the Lich and his Phylactery might be.

    Set it up as a kill switch of activated will destroy the city leaving those who triggered t to know they killed so many. The only other way is to carry the device to an Archmage to remove the safety measure. This gives the Lich enough time to recover the Phylactery, because he knows no hero worth his salt would risk lives of a city to kill one Lich.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    How big is it? They could do one of the following:
    • Detonate it inside a Resilient Sphere.
    • Detonate it inside a cube made of Walls of Force.
    • Move it somewhere it's unlikely to cause much trouble. Preferably somewhere you don't like.
    • Move the A-Bomb to a null-magic plane, smash it to pieces with a hammer. Use Invoke Magic and shadow well to escape from the null-magic plane.
    • Cast Disjunction on it, potentially sacrificing their spellcasting to knock its magic out. Ideally use an object to cast it, so nobody's spellcasting is risked.
    • Polymorph it into something harmless, then destroy it.
    • Place it inside a bag of holding (or something like that), then puncture the bag so the artifact is lost forever.
    • Use UMD or something to defuse it.
    • Evacuate the region, then detonate it.
    • Capture the lich's soul (with a Trap the Soul spell, or a Thinaun weapon), and then destroy the soul by using it as a material component for a cantrip.
    • Incapacitate the lich, do the Flesh to Stone -> Rock to Mud thing so he doesn't ever technically die. Place the remains in a Bag of Holding and puncture it so he's lost forever.
    • Wish for the bomb's' explosion to not deal damage.


    EDIT: But wait, there's more!
    My favorite solution? Incapacitate the lich (using antimagic shenanigans as appropriate), and strap him to his phylactery-bomb (or at least within the blast radius). Tell him that if he wants to survive, he must tell the PCs how to defuse the bomb. If the bomb detonates, the lich is destroyed forever. If the bomb doesn't detonate, tell the lich he gets to live in prison or have some chance at continuing his existence. You could also try Mindraping or Probe Thoughts-ing* the lich if he won't tell you.

    *If immunity is an issue, do something like polymorph to change the lich's type away from undead.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2014-09-17 at 11:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

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    (I don't know why I read "Phylactery" as "Prophylactic" at first...)


    The players could also do something that will trigger the explosion in 1 round, and then Teleport the bomb (just the bomb, not themselves) to, say, somewhere they can see that would allow an explosion of that magnitude without repercussion: the sun

    Alternatively, they could Plane Shift the phylactery to another plane (Not the Positive Energy Plane) and detonate it there.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Interesting.
    More details: The weapon is dormant. It was meant to be activated to destroy that region but something happened and it did not explode. So it is very unstable. Moving it or just being near it may cause its delayed explosion to trigger, killing everything around it and corrupting the area.

    None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
    -The lich himself
    -Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
    -The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
    - The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
    -The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post

    Remove the core of fissile material and defuse it.
    I think that whould take a lot of technical knowledge in ancient lost technologies. I mean even if it was a normal bomb very few people in this world would be able to disarm it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Along Killer Angel's suggestion, simply remove the detonator, then dismantle the now safe (well safer) bomb.

    A little more risky and it depends on exactly what the design of the bomb is, but destroying it in a controlled explosion may also be possible.
    It is a bomb meant to corrupt the area around the destructive blast. Controlled explosion may be possible but would still cause a lot of damage because of the "evil magic radiation" right?
    Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2014-09-17 at 01:41 PM.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that don't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post

    I think that whould take a lot of technical knowledge in ancient lost technologies. I mean even if it was a normal bomb very few people in this world would be able to disarm it.
    A fission bomb "should"/might be disarmed just by cutting it in half from to to bottom (half the radiactive material in a half sphere should/might not be enough for a proper nuclear reaction), but I'm no expert so don't try this at home .

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
    -The lich himself
    -Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
    -The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
    - The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
    -The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.
    Then get one of them to do it. If the dude can't be trusted with the knowledge afterward, you whack him.

    Also, I'd say that blowing a hole in the abyss is a bit more preferable to blowing it up in your backyard. It's not like corruption is going to change much there.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2014-09-17 at 01:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Then get one of them to do it. If the dude can't be trusted with the knowledge afterward, you whack him.

    Also, I'd say that blowing a hole in the abyss is a bit more preferable to blowing it up in your backyard. It's not like corruption is going to change much there.
    They'd likely have an interest in doing their research off-plane. If they get killed doing it, bonus. If they don't get killed doing it, kill them when they return and burn their plans.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    A nuclear weapon does not detonate when it's destroyed.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    " The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

    Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."

    So if we are talking about a D&D Lich this doesn't work. If we ignore the "tiny items" designation then just have the Lich turn the Moon/Sun into its phylactery so that killing it would cause an extinction event.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by Stellar_Magic View Post
    A nuclear weapon does not detonate when it's destroyed.
    A plot device, however, detonates precisely when the author wants it to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    More details: The weapon is dormant. It was meant to be activated to destroy that region but something happened and it did not explode. So it is very unstable. Moving it or just being near it may cause its delayed explosion to trigger, killing everything around it and corrupting the area.

    None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
    If this is so unstable, be prepared to explain how the lich managed to insert his phylactery inside it without detonation.

    Also, the ethics of teleporting the device to another location to detonate depends on that target location (assuming you can ensure the black mage won't send it to his rival's livingroom instead). If you could ensure that the device was "teleported" to a region of space far from any planets, there's no ethical dilemma. Detonating the device one Astronomical Unit (Earth-Sun distance) directly above the planet's north pole should cause no harm to anyone other than the lich.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    If this is so unstable, be prepared to explain how the lich managed to insert his phylactery inside it without detonation.
    It became unstable later.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post

    I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment on me and fail my save.

    It's not certain if the delayed spell would trigger it while I was imprisoned, but if it did I would be impervious to the harm it caused. If the delayed spell was also frozen (so that it instead triggers one round after freedom is cast), we're still going to have the lich regenerate (potentially) inside the same prison I'm in, only to be immediately obliterated if he's ever released. Divinations could tell if the plan worked as intended to allow for the character's release.

    That's not an ideal solution, as the worst case scenario means the right freedom spell could kill everyone within a big region. But hey, ending a campaign by building a statue of the nameless hero on the wrong spot (to throw off people trying to do this) would be a pretty cool way to end a campaign.

    There's probably sillier solutions out there that wouldn't require the ambiguous rules to be interpreted in a way favorable for me. That's just what I thought of.
    What if this IS the bomb? that is, the lich someow figured out how to respawn outside the Imprisonment his phylactary is in, then arranged so that if the phylactary is ever released, it would destroy whatever nation it was in when it was opened.

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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    This scenario make me think of The Lich from Adventure Time.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    Pull a Goku and teleport it to King Kai's.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    *Thinks*
    Evacuate the area, kill the lich, let his regrowth cause it to detonate.
    Or just accept the civilians as 'acceptable losses' for the other groups not being able to have the chance to figure the thing out, that way they're not alerted by civilians evacuating.
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    Default Re: Atomic bomb as a Phylactery

    The worst case scenario is it's a gun-type uranium atomic bomb, as their simplicity make them prone to fail-dangerous scenario. On the other hand, their simplicity makes them fairly easy to disarm. Just remove one of the sub-fissile pieces of uranium. Uranium isn't actually that radioactive, so it won't kill you to do so.
    Or heck, just teleport thing to a remote part of the world (or another dimension) and detonate.
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