Is the increased damage for Monk unarmed strikes a trap?

[emeraldstreak]

As I said, 12d8 is the minimum. Many of the increases are not actual size increased, like INA, and stack above. And there's plenty more to the damage too. If you had read Rubik's and my links you'd know each of the monsters would be one-shotted.

[Sir Garanok]

umm...why would a monk with 100s of damage dice and wraithstrike fail to kill these three?

My point is not if a monk can deal damage.

My point is that many people use unarmed strike because it seems cool.(and it is cool)

You have many benefits from it but damage-wise its not the best option.

You should use it if you want those benefits.

[Pan151]

The biggest downside of unarmed strikes for me is...no 2 handed power attack.

Afaik there's nothing stopping you from also attacking with a two-handed weapon on top of your unarmed attacks...

[Rubik]

What page can I find this?

Page 233. It talks about adding existing item properties to new items. You can remove special properties from one item and add it to another, with few to no restrictions.

[Fax Celestis]

Afaik there's nothing stopping you from also attacking with a two-handed weapon on top of your unarmed attacks...

Other than TWF penalties, sure.

[Rubik]

Other than TWF penalties, sure.

Or just use a unarmed strike in lieu of a TWF attack (or vice versa), but the only reason for that is special qualities you may have placed on your unarmed strike that you need to toss in there, instead of direct damage. That, or you're fighting a rust monster or something.

[Fax Celestis]

Or just use a unarmed strike in lieu of a TWF attack (or vice versa), but the only reason for that is special qualities you may have placed on your unarmed strike that you need to toss in there, instead of direct damage. That, or you're fighting a rust monster or something.

Not everyone agrees with me that the TWF penalties only come from gaining extra attacks, even though I feel the verbiage on the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack are pretty clear.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

[Seerow]

The easiest means to make it less of a trap is to make melee special monk weapons (since the class already defines those) use unarmed strike damage. This means a monk can still easily benefit from weapon enhancements without shenanigans, can overcome metal-based DR, and still fills the "I don't really need weapons if it comes down to it" niche. If you do this, though, you should probably make it a direct override rather than based on size categories, since it means the monk gains the ability to do any of the fighter's typical Red Cloud of Death style attacks, particularly with the existence of the Unorthodox Flurry feat.

I specify melee weapons because I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't be too happy with 12d6 shuriken at their table.

I think Pathfinder's brawler did this, letting Close Monk weapons borrow their unarmed strike damage one step lower.

Personally I think it would be awesome to have a 12d6 shuriken. But I'm probably not in the majority on that. (And even if you let Shuriken get full Monk unarmed damage, that'd be pretty hard to attain without the +4 size increases from Greater Mighty Whallop. There is no Slashing or Piercing equivalent that I am aware of)

[Fax Celestis]

I think Pathfinder's brawler did this, letting Close Monk weapons borrow their unarmed strike damage one step lower.

Personally I think it would be awesome to have a 12d6 shuriken. But I'm probably not in the majority on that. (And even if you let Shuriken get full Monk unarmed damage, that'd be pretty hard to attain without the +4 size increases from Greater Mighty Whallop. There is no Slashing or Piercing equivalent that I am aware of)

Would adaptive shurikens +1 do it?

[Rubik]

Not everyone agrees with me that the TWF penalties only come from gaining extra attacks, even though I feel the verbiage on the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack are pretty clear.

You only take penalties when you take extra attacks. People who argue otherwise don't have a RAW leg to stand on.

[Fax Celestis]

You only take penalties when you take extra attacks. People who argue otherwise don't have a RAW leg to stand on.

Agreed. Doesn't mean I've still had an argument over it multiple times.

[ericgrau]

It is always worse than level appropriate weapons & related optimization. It is really only for stunning fist and grappling, both of which are bonus feats at 1st level btw.

Shocktrooper heedless charge never counts because it is always better than other melee tactics for damage. It's just an author oversight.

D&D needs a karate focused class so that people who want to play a Final Fantasy brawler can shtap leaping headfirst into traps. There is not a PHB class for that. I imagine even an unarmed swordsage is using manuevers not punching for damage-only attacks all day.

[Flickerdart]

Did it look way better on paper? I mean, it's more damage than any other weapon in the PHB, how much better should it be for something that's a freebie?

It's not a freebie, it's a class feature.

[Rubik]

It's not a freebie, it's a class feature.

You definitely pay for it. It's just worth far less than what you give up.

[bekeleven]

the monk takes Imp natural attack, he's now +8,5 at 20, which is about double the damage and more attacks at the same effective BAB.

The fighter holds his longsword in both hands, and is getting 1.5x strength on all of his hits, giving him +2 to +5 bonuses on all of these rolls as well as +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 13 and +5 at level 17 from the power attack. They're about even again, with the fighter still ahead, with these two bonuses.

I've said this in other threads, but a monk with +3 strength at level 1 deals more with a quarterstaff than an unarmed strike. Assuming he gets his strength to +4 by level 4, it's 1D8+4 to 1D6+6, still higher until level 8, and even until level 12. Without power attack, which applies twice as hard to the staff. If the quarterstaff is magical or he increases his strength past 18 by level 12, it stays the best for longer, and avoids penalties to disarm, etc.

I'm always a fan of the quarterstaff as the only starting-proficiency two-handed monk weapon. If any is worth a feat above the quarterstaff it would be the monk's spade, and even those benefits are slight (D6 to D8, one side deals slashing and has a higher crit multiplier).

Page 233. It talks about adding existing item properties to new items. You can remove special properties from one item and add it to another, with few to no restrictions.

It doesn't say anything about removing special properties from an item, it doesn't say anything about adding unique weapon abilities (only explicit WSAs), or pricing unique weapon abilities. The only part where it discusses adding magical effects wholesale does so in the context of body slots, which weapons don't have.

So I guess that's one of the restrictions.

[Rubik]

It doesn't say anything about removing special properties from an item, it doesn't say anything about adding unique weapon abilities (only explicit WSAs), or pricing unique weapon abilities. The only part where it discusses adding magical effects wholesale does so in the context of body slots, which weapons don't have.

So I guess that's one of the restrictions.

Necklace of natural attacks has a body slot: the throat. Just turn the necklace into a scorpion kama necklace that affects slam attacks, and everything's groovy.

[bekeleven]

Necklace of natural attacks has a body slot: the throat. Just turn the necklace into a scorpion kama necklace that affects slam attacks, and everything's groovy.

OK, just as soon as

1. A book says the price of the scorpion kama's US-duplication ability
2. A book allows you to apply specific weapon abilities to other items (I wonder why they're called "specific weapons"?)
3. You can explain why this unique item power should go into the throat slot, and at what price multiplier. And yes, it is a unique item power, and not a stock weapon property.

[emeraldstreak]

The fighter holds his longsword in both hands, and is getting 1.5x strength on all of his hits, giving him +2 to +5 bonuses on all of these rolls as well as +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 13 and +5 at level 17 from the power attack. They're about even again, with the fighter still ahead, with these two bonuses.

Yup, against a single size increase for the monk.

The thing is, damage from power attack and Strength increases linearly. The next point of BAB that goes to power attack yields as much as any of the previous. The next +1 Str mod yields as much as the previous ones.

Size increases (and "as if size increases") increase damage exponentially. The next always gives more than the previous. There's only that long that power attack/Str mods can keep up before being outpaced.

[Rubik]

OK, just as soon as

1. A book says the price of the scorpion kama's US-duplication ability

Scorpion kama minus +1 weapon equals 4,000 gp.

2. A book allows you to apply specific weapon abilities to other items (I wonder why they're called "specific weapons"?)

MIC page 233. We went over this.

3. You can explain why this unique item power should go into the throat slot, and at what price multiplier. And yes, it is a unique item power, and not a stock weapon property.

Necklace of natural attacks, an official item, is on the throat slot already.

Well, that was easy.

[Aquillion]

Yup, against a single size increase for the monk.

The thing is, damage from power attack and Strength increases linearly. The next point of BAB that goes to power attack yields as much as any of the previous. The next +1 Str mod yields as much as the previous ones.

Size increases (and "as if size increases") increase damage exponentially. The next always gives more than the previous. There's only that long that power attack/Str mods can keep up before being outpaced.

If you're going to optimize for size for the Monk, then the Fighter gets to optimize his Power Attack, too; and Power Attack-boosting feats stack multiplicatively, so you're still going to lose. No number of size boosts are going to let you outdamage an Ubercharger.

I mean, I don't think it's fair to compare Str or BAB bonuses to size boosts. Obviously size boosts are better, but that's not really Monk-specific -- a reach-oriented Fighter is going to use size boosts better than a Monk anyway, in most situations. It's trickier to do a direct comparison because at that point the Fighter isn't optimizing for damage, but I think it's clear which is more useful.

[Vogonjeltz]

It certainly does. I remember when I had just started with 3.0. Our group had a monk, a sorcerer and a wizard and the monk was routinely the most useful player, especially in combat.

I started running the numbers on those dice. And I came to exactly that conclusion: the monk deals about 5 more damage than a 1d8 longsword at level 20.

Only, to an unexperienced player, that doesn't look bad. I had never played above level 5 by point. So, what was my basis for comparision? What was my conclusion?

"The monk basically gets a +5 weapon for free at high level! And it can't even be stolen or disarmed! That's damn overpowered, most fighters would probably never even find one!""

It made sense to someone who thought that Weapon Specialization's +2 damage was significant.

Ok, I can see how you'd consider the ability significant when your game experiences had the monk as being the most useful (in combat I gather?) player. It's not quite a +5 weapon though, that would also grant +5 to hit, which is actually more valuable to your average damage per round and increases your critical hit chance.

Weapon Specialization's +2 is significant, it provides a higher baseline damage for regular hits and crits. In effect of damage dealing it is like using a weapon 2 damage categories ahead: 1d4 = 1d8, 1d6 = 1d10, 1d8 = 1d12, 2d4 = 2d6, 1d10 = not on the chart. The ability isn't beloved, but its actual effect on damage outcomes.

It's not a freebie, it's a class feature.

I meant you get it for free with the monk class, not that there's no opportunity cost between class choices (not that that doesn't cut both ways). Of course, technically there's no cost at all for taking a class level (unless there's a level cap I was not made previously aware of).

[bekeleven]

Scorpion kama minus +1 weapon equals 4,000 gp.

Really? Because I was statting the value at a +1 bonus, with an item cost reduction for being locked to an exotic weapon.

Or as a 2000 GP bonus with a double-price slotless modifier.

Turns out there's no RAW way to reconcile the literally infinite ways to get a price out of the scorpion kama, because it is (a) a magic item, (b) slotless and (c) a weapon, all of which have permutations of their pricing structures.

MIC page 233. We went over this.

Necklace of natural attacks, an official item, is on the throat slot already.

That text only allows you to combine the prices of whole items in the same slot, not frankenstein an item in one area and take bits and pieces of it to items in other areas. Even if you knew the price of the ability, which you don't.

Necklace of Natural Weapons allows you to pay the price of a weapon special quality to apply it to a natural weapon. Unfortunately, if you managed to clear every other issue I've mentioned, the scorpion kama's magical power is not a weapon special quality.

Yup, against a single size increase for the monk.

Yes, against putting his left hand on the handle for the fighter. Are you saying that's a larger investment?

[emeraldstreak]

If you're going to optimize for size for the Monk, then the Fighter gets to optimize his Power Attack, too; and Power Attack-boosting feats stack multiplicatively, so you're still going to lose. No number of size boosts are going to let you outdamage an Ubercharger.

I mean, I don't think it's fair to compare Str or BAB bonuses to size boosts. Obviously size boosts are better, but that's not really Monk-specific -- a reach-oriented Fighter is going to use size boosts better than a Monk anyway, in most situations. It's trickier to do a direct comparison because at that point the Fighter isn't optimizing for damage, but I think it's clear which is more useful.

1. Ubercharger? Please provide a link or post a build. I provided a link for 256d8 worth of size increases; Rubik also provided a link; the fighter side has provided nothing so far

2. The fighter cannot use size increases as well because he starts at 2d6 at best

3. The monk does a respectable reach build as well

[Rubik]

Really? Because I was statting the value at a +1 bonus, with an item cost reduction for being locked to an exotic weapon.

Or as a 2000 GP bonus with a double-price slotless modifier.

Weapon special qualities don't work like that. Every single case in all of 3.0 and 3.5, for every single weapon, it's either a +1/+2/+3/etc modifier, or it's a +X gp modifier. Every. Single. One. And since the +1 scorpion kama in the weapon entry isn't priced as a +2 weapon, and there's no notation anywhere stating that it's priced strangely, it must be a +1 weapon with a +4,000 gp weapon ability attached.

Turns out there's no RAW way to reconcile the literally infinite ways to get a price out of the scorpion kama,

Infinite does not equal one, and it never has. There's one way to price it, and one way only. That's a +1 kama with a +4,000 gp special weapon quality.

because it is (a) a magic item, (b) slotless and (c) a weapon, all of which have permutations of their pricing structures.

It's a magic weapon. It's not even remotely difficult.

That text only allows you to combine the prices of whole items in the same slot, not frankenstein an item in one area and take bits and pieces of it to items in other areas. Even if you knew the price of the ability, which you don't.

It does give the rules (along with those in the DMG) for adding weapon special abilities to other weapon special abilities. The only question is how much it costs, which is ridiculously simple to figure out.

Necklace of Natural Weapons allows you to pay the price of a weapon special quality to apply it to a natural weapon. Unfortunately, if you managed to clear every other issue I've mentioned, the scorpion kama's magical power is not a weapon special quality.

Except it's a special quality of a magic weapon. So yes. Yes, it is. It's right there in the item entry.

[emeraldstreak]

Yes, against putting his left hand on the handle for the fighter. Are you saying that's a larger investment?

Losing your shield is.

[Aquillion]

1. Ubercharger? Please provide a link or post a build. I provided a link for 256d8 worth of size increases; Rubik also provided a link; the fighter side has provided nothing so far

2. The fighter cannot use size increases as well because he starts at 2d6 at best

3. The monk does a respectable reach build as well

There are countless Ubercharger builds (you can Google for a few of them), but one example is here.

That's not the best one. The mounted versions require exponential notation to express their damage.

More explanation here.

Obviously that build is fairly extreme, but there's gradients that are all usable. The basics are a one-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (for Pounce), plus Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

(Also, rereading Greater Mighty Wallop, I'm not sure it works with Monk damage the way you want it to. It explicitly says "Once the weapon has been adjusted to an effective size of Medium, or if it was already a Medium or larger weapon, refer to Table 2-2: Increasing Damage by Weapon Size." In other words, once you start making your weapons bigger with that spell, you're not allowed to use Monk Unarmed Damage anymore -- you do as much damage with it as anyone else, because it overrides your Monk unarmed dice with the defaults.)

Losing your shield is.

Shields are not really very valuable; the AC bonus just isn't going to help you much, especially not when the Ubercharger is tanking their AC to fuel Power Attack via Shock Trooper anyway.

[bekeleven]

Weapon special qualities don't work like that. Every single case in all of 3.0 and 3.5, for every single weapon, it's either a +1/+2/+3/etc modifier, or it's a +X gp modifier. Every. Single. One.

I agree. That is true for weapon special qualities. It is not, however, necessarily true for the ability to (Ex) reroll any die or cast Wish (Luck Blade), deal two negative levels per hit (Life Drinker), become intelligent if you take a feat (Axe of Ancestral Virtue), gain temp HP when dropping people that scales based on other magical items (Death Spike), or the ability to gain immunity to selected spells and 1/day punch people down (The Fist).

Similarly, a +5 competence bonus on spot checks, casting of Eagle's Splendor, and sprouting literal wings while wild shaped are not Armor Properties despite the fact that Hawkfeather Armor exists. However, those might be easier to price given that they take up a body slot. Of course, in (nearly) your words: "It's magic armor. It's not even remotely difficult."

If you think that things called "Specific weapons" present magical powers with the exact same rules as the section with "Weapon Properties" before it in every book, then why are there two sections? Why not present everything as weapon properties? What, in your mind, were the designers intending when they made the immunity to heat metal and chill metal part of a specific weapon? Was it "Players can still use this whenever they want, we're just making them do more math" and a mustache twirl?

Not to mention the issue with pricing multiple such abilities (like The Fist's 1/day power and its spell immunity power) - how do you price those two out, since we can apparently chop these things up? Or how about something like the Explosive Sling, which is a +1 Sling with extra powers for 36,300? Are its extra powers worth 34000, or are they worth a +3 bonus for one power and a 4000 GP bonus for the second? How about the Forceful Skylance, which is worth either a +1 power or 6000 GP?

And since the +1 scorpion kama in the weapon entry isn't priced as a +2 weapon, and there's no notation anywhere stating that it's priced strangely, it must be a +1 weapon with a +4,000 gp weapon ability attached.

There's no notation that the scorpion Kama is priced as an anything weapon except for a scorpion kama weapon. That's because it's a specific weapon, and not a pile of priced weapon properties.

Body slot magical items do exactly what is listed in their descriptions, and nothing more. I mean, I guess boots of striding and springing give you bonuses vs. caltrops, but there are few-to-no relevant rules presented with just "wearing boots" vs "wearing an anklet." For that reason, you can glue an anklet of translocation to boots of striding and springing, or glue the boots to the anklet - You're using the entirety of both of their rules effects, and there are rules in place for that (see: MIC 233). If you glued weapons together the same way, you'd end up with starforged weapons and I can't tell you how hard it would be to wield that in combat.

[emeraldstreak]

There are countless Ubercharger builds (you can Google for a few of them), but one example is here.

That's not the best one. The mounted versions require exponential notation to express their damage.

More explanation here.

Obviously that build is fairly extreme, but there's gradients that are all usable. The basics are a one-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (for Pounce), plus Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

I'm aware of the ubercharger builds. I wanted you to link one to highlight two points:

- the proper way to have a discussion

- the fact that, as expected, you cannot post a fighter but a multiclass who of course features frenzied berserker, lion totem, and many buffs from Battle Jump to Girallion's Blessing that are just as usable by a damage die optimization build.

So, when I remove what's unusable for a fighter and what's usable for both a fighter and a 2d10 class, there's not enough left to sway my argument.

[Aquillion]

I'm aware of the ubercharger builds. I wanted you to link one to highlight two points:

- the proper way to have a discussion

- the fact that, as expected, you cannot post a fighter but a multiclass who of course features frenzied berserker, lion totem, and many buffs from Battle Jump to Girallion's Blessing that are just as usable by a damage die optimization build.

So, when I remove what's unusable for a fighter and what's usable for both a fighter and a 2d10 class, there's not enough left to sway my argument.

My point in bringing up the Ubercharger is that once you start saying "well, the Monk's unarmed strikes can be useful, if you optimize them by relying on a dubious and unlikely hand-wave interpretation of an obscure buff from one particular supplement", you open the door to comparing the Monk's unarmed strikes to other, equally theoretical optimizations.

You were claiming "dice pool optimizations beat Power Attack", but you were comparing unoptimized power attack to your own interpretation of Greater Mighty Wallop. That's not a meaningful comparison. It doesn't say anything; obviously anything can be optimized.

[emeraldstreak]

My point in bringing up the Ubercharger is that once you start saying "well, the Monk's unarmed strikes can be useful, if you optimize them by relying on a dubious and unlikely hand-wave interpretation of an obscure buff from one particular supplement", you open the door to comparing the Monk's unarmed strikes to other, equally theoretical optimizations.

You were claiming "dice pool optimizations beat Power Attack", but you were comparing unoptimized power attack to your own interpretation of Greater Mighty Wallop. That's not a meaningful comparison. It doesn't say anything; obviously anything can be optimized.

Nonsense. It's not my interpretation, it's the commonly accepted interpretation of CharOp. Meanwhile, your own link admits to dubious interpretations in the ubercharger.

Moreover, Greater Mighty Wallop is only one of the many buffs to die size available, and it doesn't stack with things like racial size and augmented Expansion, making it dispensable if need be.

In fact, using custom magic items and Colossal+ size as the build you linked is exactly what 2d10 optimization needs to get to 5-digit DPR.