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Thread: elans int score

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    Default elans int score

    So i was thinking (its a new thing ive been doing ) and i was wondering... If elans dump stat was intellegence then what could it be? He doesnt talk like thog, but he has extra skill points to throw into ride? Confusing.

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    Default Re: elans int score

    "Extra skill points"?

    Elan didn't say he spent points on Ride because he just had so many that after he'd taken all the class skills he wanted he had more skill points left over. He said he had ranks in Ride. If he has an Intelligence of 3 he still has 3 skill points per level, 12 to start with.
    Last edited by Kish; 2014-09-18 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: elans int score

    Can't really draw conclusions about his Intelligence from which skills he spent points on, unless we knew something about his total skill points, which we don't.
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    Default Re: elans int score

    I doubt The Giant has any specific value in mind besides "not terribly high". As rodneyAnonymous said, if we knew Elan's skill points we could work it out, but without specifics we just have a general range.
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    Default Re: elans int score

    I feel I should raise the point that in the second comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan talks about his six new skill points. As a Bard, that implies that, despite his dump stat being Intelligence, he has an Intelligence of 10-11.

    Of course, he could just have been talking about the six Bards get, and not have actually meant that he actually got six skill points.
    Last edited by Eno Remnant; 2014-09-19 at 02:40 AM.

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    Default Re: elans int score

    Quote Originally Posted by Eno Remnant View Post
    Of course, he could just have been talking about the six Bards get, and not have actually meant that he actually got six skill points.
    I'm pretty sure the Giant is on record as saying that's what Elan meant.

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    Default Re: elans int score

    Courtesy of the latest update in the Giant's comments thread the following quote:

    Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...493#post211493

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    It was Roy who said that Elan's dump stat was Int, and he was being sarcastic at the time. Elan's actions to date don't indicate he's stupid. He is foolish. He is easily misled. He is oblivious to social interactions others find easy to decipher. His true dump stat is wisdom.

    The difference between Intelligence and Wisdom was thoroughly explored in the 1970's American sitcom, "All In The Family." The four main characters were dramatically different in these two attributes, and I recommend a viewing of the program from the beginning for those to whom the show is unfamiliar. But here are the four characters:

    Archie Bunker: patriarch of the family at a time when the role of the patriarch was dramatically changing in society and within his home as his daughter came of age.

    Edith Bunker: housewife and mother whose acceptance of her subservient role is a primary character trait.

    Gloria Bunker Stivic: daughter of Archie and Edith who brings new ideas and a new fiancee/husband into the family where the changing mores of the 1970's were examined over dinner, (or whenever!)

    Michael Stivic: fiancee/husband of Gloria, college student and political activist.

    Their relative Int and Wis stats:
    Archie: low/low
    Edith: low/high
    Gloria: average/average
    Michael: high/low

    Archie does what he does and says what he says because that was how he was taught to behave and he never critically examined himself. 'That's the way it's supposed to be,' was his answer to all injustice and social disparity. He resents Michael's intelligence and is enraged when Michael exposes some long held truth to be flawed. He is very confrontational and conservative, and opposes change on the general principle that the old ways were the best ways.

    Edith does what she does out of love and understanding of the spirits around her. She intuitively knows right from wrong and will not hesitate to denounce wrongs even when it is her domineering husband who is wrong. However, she never wants to hurt feelings, and has empathy with anyone who is in emotional need. She would rather gently guide people to proper action than to confront them, but will not hesitate to confront when their wrong action is harmful to them or to others.

    Gloria has the emotional control of a toddler, but is both clever and empathic. She couples Archie's confrontational style with Edith's empathic understanding of the needs of others, but does so while exploring her new-found freedom from the gender stereotypes of the past, (without ever truly breaking free of those stereotypes.)

    Michael is the stereotype of the 'modern', (for that time,) liberal who is radically bent on changing all injustice immediately and without a thought to the consequences. For Michael, reason trumps every other consideration, and he is not afraid to demonstrate his superior reasoning skills and his greater knowledge, especially to the unlearned Archie who represents to Michael all that is wrong with the world, (in spite of the fact that Archie was capable of raising Gloria and supporting him while he continued his education.)

    Most notably, for this debate's purposes, is the interactions between Edith and Michael, who each deal with the issues at hand in different ways. Michael knows, Edith understands. It is a critical difference in the way they face their challenges, and in the end it can be found that Edith was the true star of the show because it was she who kept the dysfunctional family together.

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    Default Re: elans int score

    Quote Originally Posted by Eno Remnant View Post
    I feel I should raise the point that in the second comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan talks about his six new skill points. As a Bard, that implies that, despite his dump stat being Intelligence, he has an Intelligence of 10-11.
    He would also get one for being human though, so if he got six it would mean his intelligence was 8 or 9

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    Well he's not a terrible good musician so a skill point here (ride) and there (comedy) could have came from perform (music).

    As for int being his dump stat, I don't think he really has one, int/wis are his lowest but his stats are still average, aside from his cha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelbiuj View Post
    Well he's not a terrible good musician so a skill point here (ride) and there (comedy) could have came from perform (music).

    As for int being his dump stat, I don't think he really has one, int/wis are his lowest but his stats are still average, aside from his cha.
    define "good". I don't think anyone has complained that his music makes their ears bleed or anything like that, he's just annoying with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    He would also get one for being human though, so if he got six it would mean his intelligence was 8 or 9
    Both of you are inexplicably acting like Elan had just gained a level, instead of being updated to a new edition.
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    Default Re: elans int score

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    define "good". I don't think anyone has complained that his music makes their ears bleed or anything like that, he's just annoying with it.
    Yeah, really it's his application of his music that sets people on edge, not the quality.
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    It should be noted Archie also has a low CHA. But yeah, that was a good show for making you think about stuff in a way I don't anything else has done in the last decade or two. And many of the issues in the show are still around, which means it still bears re-watching.

    Although Archie is more sympathetic as a character now, as we know that a lot of the changes Michael was advocating didn't work so well, for the reasons noted above: they weren't thought through.

    And now I'm wondering what Carroll O'Connor would look like with a beard and a battleaxe, growling that the old ways are the best way. I think I'll base my next dwarf on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpheonix View Post
    So i was thinking (its a new thing ive been doing ) and i was wondering... If elans dump stat was intellegence then what could it be? He doesnt talk like thog, but he has extra skill points to throw into ride? Confusing.
    Your question rests on two premises:
    1. Elan has an extremely low intelligence, and therefore relatively few skill points.
    2. Elan is presumed to have allocated his skill points intelligently.

    I'm not really sure how it can be both.

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    Default Re: elans int score

    Quote Originally Posted by Eno Remnant View Post
    I feel I should raise the point that in the second comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan talks about his six new skill points. As a Bard, that implies that, despite his dump stat being Intelligence, he has an Intelligence of 10-11.

    Of course, he could just have been talking about the six Bards get, and not have actually meant that he actually got six skill points.
    Actually the giant said that the whole thing was based on the fact the Elan was bad at math if I remember correctly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Yeah, really it's his application of his music that sets people on edge, not the quality.
    I always thought Elan is a very good musician. But not so good at giving inspiring speeches. And there's no way to avoid a kazoo sounding annoying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno Remnant View Post
    I feel I should raise the point that in the second comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan talks about his six new skill points. As a Bard, that implies that, despite his dump stat being Intelligence, he has an Intelligence of 10-11.

    Of course, he could just have been talking about the six Bards get, and not have actually meant that he actually got six skill points.
    Humans get +1 skill point per level don't they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelbiuj View Post

    As for int being his dump stat, I don't think he really has one, int/wis are his lowest but his stats are still average, aside from his cha.
    According to Belkar, Elan assigning his intelligence was the biggest dump in the history of the comic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And now I'm wondering what Carroll O'Connor would look like with a beard and a battleaxe, growling that the old ways are the best way. I think I'll base my next dwarf on him.
    Please have him call the party wizard Meathead.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2014-09-22 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    According to Belkar, Elan assigning his intelligence was the biggest dump in the history of the comic.
    And Belkar's intelligence was once unfavourably compared to that of a table by Vaarsuvius, so I'm really not convinced he's the best source for this information...

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    I'm willing to bet his Intelligence and Wisdom combined aren't higher than his charisma - but they could be equal. 9/9/18 at roll up seems likely. I think he's grown in both and stands at 10,10,19 now. My uncle is very mildly retarded, and my sister noticeably so. I've been around the full spectrum of such limitations for a lifetime and Elan doesn't drop down to what I'd consider an 8 or 6 (Thog does).

    Another brilliant example of dumb but wise - Forrest Gump. I'd put Gump at an 8 intelligence but a 15 or so wisdom. Elan isn't quite as dumb as Gump, but he's far more foolish.
    Last edited by Alias; 2014-09-22 at 03:26 PM.

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    Looking at Forrest Gump moreso than Elan (but both of them), I don't understand why people look at characters who are written to be comically stupid, and think "this should be numerically represented as just-below-average." If Forrest is an 8 Intelligence, what's a 7, 6, 5, 4, or 3?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Looking at Forrest Gump moreso than Elan (but both of them), I don't understand why people look at characters who are written to be comically stupid, and think "this should be numerically represented as just-below-average." If Forrest is an 8 Intelligence, what's a 7, 6, 5, 4, or 3?
    Easy...

    10 - Human adult average, reached at around age 16
    9 - 12 year old human average (My uncle, Elan likely at the start of the campaign)
    8 - 9 year old human average (My sister or Forrest Gump)
    7 - 7 year old human average
    6 - 5 year old human average (Thog)
    5 - 4 year old human average
    4 - 3 year old human average
    3 - 2 year old human average.
    Last edited by Alias; 2014-09-22 at 03:37 PM.

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    It may be easy, but considering that there's a nonzero chance of a healthy, adult adventurer with no impairments* having an Intelligence of 3, I'd say what it has in ease, it doesn't have in accuracy.

    *Restoration restores ability scores reduced by any source, but conspicuously fails to state "if this is cast on a human with an Intelligence below 9, it will increase that human's Intelligence to 9."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    It may be easy, but considering that there's a nonzero chance of a healthy, adult adventurer with no impairments* having an Intelligence of 3, I'd say what it has in ease, it doesn't have in accuracy.

    *Restoration restores ability scores reduced by any source, but conspicuously fails to state "if this is cast on a human with an Intelligence below 9, it will increase that human's Intelligence to 9."
    Well what are you considering an impairment? Certainly there are plenty of conditions out there that for one reason or another inhibit your learning ability and mental development, yet the body doesn't consider "wrong" enough to correct on its own. I wouldn't consider it any stretch of the imagination that since that inhibited state is considered the norm for that individual, restoration wouldn't improve it any more than it would cure, say, albinism or blue eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    I always thought Elan is a very good musician. But not so good at giving inspiring speeches. And there's no way to avoid a kazoo sounding annoying.
    I always kind of figured Elan's songs were really catchy but lacking in content. Like a lot of pop songs, or, if you're not the type, "I Am the Walrus" or some other largely meaningless song of your choice. It doesn't inspire any particular deep thought, but it sure is catchy - unless someone is playing it when you're trying to concentrate, of course.

    As for the Restoration conversation, I'm just going to say that D&D stats are ill equipped to fully simulate the broad range of human intelligences in varying areas. A low D&D Int score just generally means you are not the studious and knowledgeable sort, and aside from keeping loosely to that, you are free to RP it however you wish, whether it's as an intellectual disability, lack of education, lack of rigorous mental training, lack of focus, or whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alias View Post
    10 - Human adult average, reached at around age 16
    9 - 12 year old human average (My uncle, Elan likely at the start of the campaign)
    8 - 9 year old human average (My sister or Forrest Gump)
    7 - 7 year old human average
    6 - 5 year old human average (Thog)
    5 - 4 year old human average
    4 - 3 year old human average
    3 - 2 year old human average.
    This chart would be more useful if it wasn't completely made up.
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    Default Re: elans int score

    Actually, guys, it may come as a surprise to many of you, but G. Gygax chose 3d6 as the standard range of attributes for a reason: it simulates the Bell Curve pattern which IQ tests on groups of humans produce.

    It's really simple. Take your character's INT stat and multiply times ten to get your character's IQ, so a stat roll of 10 produces an IQ of 100, or average. You find many 9's to 11's, not quite as many 7-8's and 12-13's, even fewer 6's and 14's, and rarely anything outside that range with 3's and 18's exceptionally rare. (Unless you have dice-fudgers...)

    The clever will notice that the bell curve produced by 3d6 is skewed to the high side, meaning that 10.5 is actually the median on character stats. G. Gygax explained that this reflected the fact that characters were above average compared to the non-adventuring base population.

    If you don't like the fact that your character is walking around with a 3 INT, (3.5 ed D&D chose to use the optional 4d6, disregarding the lowest die rolled to generate even more above average and fewer below average rolls,) you should compare his wisdom score as well. A very low Int, average WIS character may not be able to speak or assemble a four-piece jigsaw puzzle, but he can function about as well as a trained guard dog. Let's hope he also has a high CHA so the party members will remember to feed him and pet him and take him for walks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    It's really simple. Take your character's INT stat and multiply times ten to get your character's IQ, so a stat roll of 10 produces an IQ of 100, or average. You find many 9's to 11's, not quite as many 7-8's and 12-13's, even fewer 6's and 14's, and rarely anything outside that range with 3's and 18's exceptionally rare. (Unless you have dice-fudgers...)
    Except that you've roughly doubled the standard deviation. It's just not true that 2% of the population have IQs of 170 or greater.

    The standard deviation of IQ is roughly 15, while the standard deviation of 3d6 is 2.958.

    You'd get a more accurate approach by multiplying the roll by 5, and adding 50.

    3d6 IQ (very rough)
    3 65
    4 70
    5 75
    6 80
    7 85
    8 90
    9 95
    10 100
    11 105
    12 110
    13 115
    14 120
    15 125
    16 130
    17 135
    18 140

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    That would put Forrest Gump's Intelligence at 4, which strikes me as a whole lot more accurate than the "if you're even slightly below average Intelligence it means you have a disability which not even the most powerful magic can cure" approach suggested by Alias.
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