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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Your RL alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Plant Creatures are sometimes intelligent, but not often.

    However "ordinary" trees tend to be portrayed as Objects.

    BoED had a Vow that required the character to "not touch dead flesh" of any kind - assuming that the flesh has to be that of a creature, and "fruit flesh" doesn't count - that would be a Vow that basically requires strict vegetarianism. Even if you swallowed something alive, its dead flesh would be touching the inside of your stomach shortly afterward.
    Real life plants are always non-intelligent, unless you can find a plant with a central nervous system, and then eat it. But potatoes, cabbage, rice, apples aren't intelligent.

    Hell, if you could genetically engineer a pig so that it does not have a brain then it is basically a meat plant and you could have your bacon and keep your promise to do no harm.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    BoED had a Vow that required the character to "not touch dead flesh" of any kind - assuming that the flesh has to be that of a creature, and "fruit flesh" doesn't count - that would be a Vow that basically requires strict vegetarianism.
    You are correct. Vows like that exist in real life and their adherents limit their diet to fruits and plants.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Excepting Vow of Peace, of course.

    D&D morality is pretty clear that the death of animals and vermin through the normal traditional farming practice isn't Evil. This is the case regardless of whether this aligns with anyone's real-life ethics (and it does not, for a large number of people). It might be evil to torture a cow, but I'm not certain there's anything in the rules to suggest that. It's because of mismatches like this and the other way around that I say I'm likely not Good.
    And yet, Dragons and certain Undead(Such as Vampires) are considered Evil if they try to do the same things.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Mostly because humanoids aren't animals or vermin - there's no discontinuity between INT 10 and INT 30 the way there is between INT 2 and INT 3.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    And yet, Dragons and certain Undead(Such as Vampires) are considered Evil if they try to do the same things.
    Carnivorous Animals would be considered Evil just as well if they had Int of 3 or above. They are only excused for their instinctive behaviour because they lack rational capacity to rise above it. This is *the* reason why so many carnivorous humanoids and the like are "always" or "usually evil" in alignment. By D&D 3.x. definition, an evil person is someone who "debases or destroys innocent, whether for fun or profit". Well what do you know, most predatorous animals are actually keyed to feel satisfaction for killing and torturing their prey animals, most of which have done absolutely nothing to them. Think of a cat, playing with a mouse. That feline bastard gets active delight from watching that little thing trying to scamper away from its paws in mortal terror.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Carnivorous Animals would be considered Evil just as well if they had Int of 3 or above. They are only excused for their instinctive behaviour because they lack rational capacity to rise above it. This is *the* reason why so many carnivorous humanoids and the like are "always" or "usually evil" in alignment.
    D&D Human societies with a meat-heavy diet to the point of carnivory (like ice-dwellers) generally aren't considered Evil though - maybe because "fun" doesn't come into it.

    And plenty of Good dragons (bronze in particular) are carnivorous.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Mostly because humanoids aren't animals or vermin - there's no discontinuity between INT 10 and INT 30 the way there is between INT 2 and INT 3.
    So, D&D's animals are not actually supposed to be real animals, which are significantly more intelligent and sapient than D&D assumes.

    Actually - Illithid predation's the one I can't see as inherently 'evil', because they are just as dependent on intelligent brains as other creatures are on meat.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-09-23 at 10:40 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    That is correct.

    AD&D used to have more nuanced view of intelligence, with each species having its Intelligence graded separately. As a result, many animals in earlier editions had intelligence above "animal" and, consequently, Alignment other than True Neutral. Animals like that also tended to have language of their own, several types of primates and Giant Beaver come to mind most prominently.

    If we applied cutting-edge real-life knowledge of animal cognition to D&D 3.x. ruleset, quite many species would gain Int 3 or above and consequently qualify for alignments other than True Neutral. Corvids, dolphins and primates come to mind. Consequently, hunting them for food would not be without moral weight anymore; a player character would have to place much greater emphasis on non-violence and vegetarianism to remain Good or even Neutral.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    So, D&D's animals are not actually supposed to be real animals, which are significantly more intelligent and sapient than D&D assumes.

    Actually - Illithid predation's the one I can't see as inherently 'evil', because they are just as dependent on intelligent brains as other creatures are on meat.
    Illithids are evil due to the murder and blatant disregard for life and well being they show, not for eating at all. They're sustained psionically and all have pretty easy access to magical sustenance (every single one is a planes walking super genius with magical powers) that would rather harvest, Herd and murder humans for enjoyment of a gourmet meal or just for some potato chips with the added benefit of having murdered someone.

    They are also eugenic mutants from the far apocalyptic future who are directly attempting to murder the entire human species through consistent, cyclic repeating of history with cumulative iterative tweaks to guarantee they come about sooner, stronger and won't actually have to fear the coming apocalypse, an end to which they apply their magical powers of slavery and their entire society's resources.

    Where is the 'not evil' in that?

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Illithids are evil due to the murder and blatant disregard for life and well being they show, not for eating at all. They're sustained psionically and all have pretty easy access to magical sustenance (every single one is a planes walking super genius with magical powers) that would rather harvest, Herd and murder humans for enjoyment of a gourmet meal or just for some potato chips with the added benefit of having murdered someone.
    Actually, Illithids require an intelligent brain per week to survive at minimum. No different than a fisherman who decides to catch a few extra for snacks.

    They are also eugenic mutants from the far apocalyptic future who are directly attempting to murder the entire human species through consistent, cyclic repeating of history with cumulative iterative tweaks to guarantee they come about sooner, stronger and won't actually have to fear the coming apocalypse, an end to which they apply their magical powers of slavery and their entire society's resources.

    Where is the 'not evil' in that?
    Meh. I'm more concerned about how they treat each other than how they treat what amount to wild game to them. Though I could see deliberately murdering the human species as a problem. Of course, I think humans might be trying to do the same to them, and it's a Heinleinian "Us or Them" situation. They have just as much right to fight to be the dominant species as any other. Human morality is geared to marginalize and destroy anything that gets in the way of Human Grey Gooing

    And ultimately, the Illithids have two goals that their actions are driven toward:
    - Be #1 in the universe. It's easy to say that this is "Evil" when your own species defaults to this position if everyone plays by your definition of "Good"
    - Cancel the Apocalypse.

    I'm seeing "Inhumanly Neutral" here.
    As far as "Culture of slavery" - Humans have a comparable number of inferior-intellect species bent to serve us. Illithids are no different. Except we think that animals are too dumb to consider their lives as actually worth anything simply because of communication gaps - when an Illithid deigns to speak with a human, it's the equivalent of an animal tamer talking down a wild animal/livestock/pet - reducing their normal communication to something that the creatures beneath them can understand.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-09-23 at 01:39 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    I'm Chaotic Evil! But I already knew that!

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    Actually, Illithids require an intelligent brain per week to survive at minimum. No different than a fisherman who decides to catch a few extra for snacks.
    source? This isn't the 3.5 forum, my information from 1e & 2e is just as relevant. And unlike fish, humans are sophonts, and possess actual souls (no, animals don't have souls as such, yes, this means elves in old school games could be considered subhuman). And while being intelligent and having a soul is not necessarily able to take you off the menu, it does predicate a certain amount of mercy while killing, which they studiously lack.

    Meh. I'm more concerned about how they treat each other than how they treat what amount to wild game to them.
    No, not wild game; children. Humans are the same species as them, humans are their wombs, and humans are a preferred but unnecessary food source. Ilithids are not noble and misunderstood; they're pedophile cannibal rapists.

    That's sort of the thing with the terms "monster" and "evil" in an objective sense; no, they don't have just as much right to live as everyone else. For that, we would have to rewrite just about everything from the ground up, starting with modern moral sensibilities. Porting those sensibilities backward to a world or setting quite literally designed as a Socratic experiment to take the morals of fifty or more years ago as objectively true is going to get compiling errors.

    Note this is as much to establish the silliness of mind flayers as people (or even existing creatures) as it is to argue.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2014-09-23 at 08:17 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    source? This isn't the 3.5 forum, my information from 1e & 2e is just as relevant.
    This was true in 2E, in the Illithad book and Spelljammer, to name just two places. 1E is very fluff light, but the Ecology of the Mind Flayer in Dragon #78 says the Illithids relish the brains of humans and similar beings the way you eat the meat of cattle and fowl.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    And unlike fish, humans are sophonts, and possess actual souls (no, animals don't have souls as such, yes, this means elves in old school games could be considered subhuman). And while being intelligent and having a soul is not necessarily able to take you off the menu, it does predicate a certain amount of mercy while killing, which they studiously lack.
    In 2E, both animals and elves (and orcs) have spirits, not souls.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    source? This isn't the 3.5 forum, my information from 1e & 2e is just as relevant. And unlike fish, humans are sophonts, and possess actual souls (no, animals don't have souls as such, yes, this means elves in old school games could be considered subhuman). And while being intelligent and having a soul is not necessarily able to take you off the menu, it does predicate a certain amount of mercy while killing, which they studiously lack.
    The 3.5 Aberrtion splatbook Lords of Madness.

    No, not wild game; children. Humans are the same species as them, humans are their wombs, and humans are a preferred but unnecessary food source. Ilithids are not noble and misunderstood; they're pedophile cannibal rapists.

    That's sort of the thing with the terms "monster" and "evil" in an objective sense; no, they don't have just as much right to live as everyone else. For that, we would have to rewrite just about everything from the ground up, starting with modern moral sensibilities. Porting those sensibilities backward to a world or setting quite literally designed as a Socratic experiment to take the morals of fifty or more years ago as objectively true is going to get compiling errors.

    Note this is as much to establish the silliness of mind flayers as people (or even existing creatures) as it is to argue.
    Illithids are to humans what humans are to the rest of the natural world, for the most part. Except with a little bit more added. Humans are not "Illithid children", though they are a combination of womb and food source. I also contest the claim that animals lack souls.

    From a "Monsters(Such as Goblins, Orcs, and Illithids) are Creatures/People Too" viewpoint (A pretty popular one, expressed by Rich Burlew and many others), Illithids are sort of the Most Human. I actually like them because of that inhumanly human perspective they add. We're pretty much The Flood meets Chicken Run to them.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    Illithids are to humans what humans are to the rest of the natural world, for the most part. Except with a little bit more added. Humans are not "Illithid children", though they are a combination of womb and food source. I also contest the claim that animals lack souls.
    Illithid tadpoles are Heinlein's "Puppet masters" - entering the body of a human, warping it, and "riding" it.

    And the "Us or them" position only applied to the most aggressively expansionistic aliens - the Bugs, the Puppet Masters. Humans got along fine in his books with the Martians, Venusians, and various other factions.
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    Meh. I'm more concerned about how they treat each other than how they treat what amount to wild game to them. Though I could see deliberately murdering the human species as a problem.
    Could we please stop talking about illithid alignment as if real world morality applies? In DnD, good is about "altruism, respect for life, [...] a concern for the dignity of sentient beings [and] personal sacrifies". Evil is about "harming, oppering, [...] killing others, [lack of] compassion for others, [killing] without qualms if doing so is convecient or if it can be set up" (3rd edition PHB). Illithid's are evil, end of discussion.

    Yes, the situation is set up in such a way that illithids are evil. That's because DnD is agame and illithids are supposed to be the villains. Good and evil are cosmic forces in the DnD universe. If Gary Gygax had decided "good gods want to see their followers turn vegetarian" then eating meat is evil in DnD.

    You are free to think that real-world morality works differently and I wouldn't tell you that you are wrong.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpectralDerp View Post
    Could we please stop talking about illithid alignment as if real world morality applies? In DnD, good is about "altruism, respect for life, [...] a concern for the dignity of sentient beings [and] personal sacrifies". Evil is about "harming, oppering, [...] killing others, [lack of] compassion for others, [killing] without qualms if doing so is convecient or if it can be set up" (3rd edition PHB). Illithid's are evil, end of discussion.

    Yes, the situation is set up in such a way that illithids are evil. That's because DnD is agame and illithids are supposed to be the villains. Good and evil are cosmic forces in the DnD universe. If Gary Gygax had decided "good gods want to see their followers turn vegetarian" then eating meat is evil in DnD.
    Yup - thread is about what "we" would look like seen through the lens of D&D morality (even if it is a bit inconsistent) - but not vice versa.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    This was true in 2E, in the Illithad book and Spelljammer, to name just two places. 1E is very fluff light, but the Ecology of the Mind Flayer in Dragon #78 says the Illithids relish the brains of humans and similar beings the way you eat the meat of cattle and fowl.
    The word relish works for me, not against me; we may relish cattle and fowl but vegetarians and vegans get along just fine. Mind flayers may relish human brains but do not require them.

    In 2E, both animals and elves (and orcs) have spirits, not souls.
    That is what I said, yes. And it predates 2e; it is why elves couldn't be resurrected in older games.

    Sartharina: why do you object? Do you value souls more than spirits? If so, why? Being effused of spirit facilitates elven transition to their preferred afterlife. It's not a bad thing by any means, just not humanocentric.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Took the quiz. Put me down as Neutral Good, which I must say, fits me good.... *puts on sunglasses*


    Eeeyaaaaa!
    Saying that X isn't overpowered because it can be countered in contrived manner Y does not prove that it isn't overpowered. You've proved that it has weaknesses. Congratulations. The state of being overpowered, however, is not an absence of weaknesses but a surplus of strength beyond what would be commiserate with your weaknesses.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Neutral good, chaotic-leaning, according to the pa.msu.edu test.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    I just looked at another system that Yenek just linked to

    http://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments...evil_x/ckqi1m3

    It doesn't ask specific questions like the tests we've mentioned earlier, but it does have you rate yourself from 1-5 on 3 different qualifiers for each end of each spectrum.

    Myself, for example:

    Law: 6 (Discipline 1 + Respect for Authority 1 + Communalism 4)
    Chaos: 10 (Curiosity 5 + Anarchy 4 + Wanderlust 1)

    Good: 11 (Generosity 3 + Patience/tolerance for differences 5 + Loyalty 3)
    Evil: 6 (Sadism 1 + Greed 3 + Hatred 2)

    Not only is this consistent with a lot of my other tests (62.5% Chaotic, 64.7% Good // I tend to get either Neutral Good or Chaotic Neutral), but it also fleshes out that I tend to care about general concepts more than real-world details:

    Very High Curiosity: I want to know things
    but Very Low Wanderlust: I don't care about seeing things

    Above Average Communalism, High Tolerance, Average Generosity and Average Loyalty: I think everybody should take care of each other
    but Above Average Anarchy, Low Discipline and Low Respect for Authority: I don't like being told how to do it (even when I haven't come up with anything myself yet)

    Somebody else might be TN/CG like me, but cares more about the real world than abstract concepts
    (higher Discipline + higher Wanderlust /// lower Tolerance and higher Hatred + higher Generosity and Loyalty)

    Somebody else might prefer abstract concepts to the real world like me, but could be LE
    (higher Hatred than Sadism or Greed /// higher Discipline/Respect for Authority, but not as high as Communalism)

    ___

    I can certainly quibble with the specific criteria used, but I love the emphasis on how two people with the same alignment can manifest it completely differently.
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    True Neutral with tendencies towards Chaos and Evil.

    PS. Apparenly, the above mentioned test says I'm Neural Evil with tendencies towards Chaos and Neurality. Close enough :)
    Last edited by Pan151; 2014-09-25 at 08:25 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    I describe myself as Neutral Good, though that's a gross simplification that most DM's I've known would take issue with we're someone playing me in their (really boring) game.

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