Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata

[Kurald Galain]

There are a lot of cases of restating bonuses or penalties in ways that make them stack by RAW.

Yep. Scent gives you +8 to perception checks based on smell. The spell Bloodhound gives you scent and a +8 to perception checks based on smell, which technically stacks. It may not be as spectacular as some other things in this thread, but it does strike me as dysfunctional.

[grarrrg]

Speaking of which, the two-handed fighter archetype says it adds twice its strength to damage rolls. Now this is probably meant to be instead of the normal strength bonus, but it doesn't actually say so, which means that by RAW he gets to add 3.5 times his strength mod to melee damage.

Originally that may have been the case, but then they FAQ'd it.
It now 'stacks' like most other things, in that it does not.

[The Viscount]

Here's two:

The Wyvern has 3 primary attacks, which isn't how primary attacks work.

A deathshead can be created by the create undead spell by a caster of 15th to 17th level. There is no explanation for why casters of only this narrow range can create a deathshead.

[Kurald Galain]

The Wyvern has 3 primary attacks, which isn't how primary attacks work.

Yes, that is how primary attacks work. An optimized PC can easily have five primary natural attacks.

[grarrrg]

Here's two:

The Wyvern has 3 primary attacks, which isn't how primary attacks work.

Not sure if you mean in 3.5, or PF.
But the Wyvern is perfectly fine in either.

3.5
"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary."

PF just outright allows for multiple Primaries/Secondaries.

Only 1 primary is -usually- the case, but the rules do allow for more.

Yes, that is how primary attacks work. An optimized PC can easily have five primary natural attacks.

Primaries work a little differently in PF than in 3.5

[Zaq]

Arcane Trickster, DMG pg. 178:

An arcane trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, twice per day upon attaining 5th level, and three times per day at 9th level or higher. He can make only one ranged legerdemain skill check each day, and only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.

So you can use it twice per day at 5th level, but you can only use it once per day?

[Andezzar]

When you can use it twice per day you can also use it once per day. The "only" is your addition. It's just like having two apples. Any time you do, you also have one apple.

You also forgot the word "initially" meaning in the beginning. So it is clear that whatever happens on 5th level and later overwrites what happens in the beginning.

[Zaq]

When you can use it twice per day you can also use it once per day. The "only" is your addition. It's just like having two apples. Any time you do, you also have one apple.

You also forgot the word "initially" meaning in the beginning. So it is clear that whatever happens on 5th level and later overwrites what happens in the beginning.

You're only reading the first sentence. The second sentence contradicts the first one.

An arcane trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, twice per day upon attaining 5th level, and three times per day at 9th level or higher. He can make only one ranged legerdemain skill check each day, and only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.

The "only" is right there in the text. The second sentence clearly contradicts the first one.

[Andezzar]

I agree that is dysfunctional.

[Flickerdart]

My reading was "he can only use this check with each skill once." So if you Ranged Legerdemain with Open Lock, you can't do that again that day, but you could ranged Sleight of Hand.

[Jormengand]

The cleric from PF:

A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots.

One of these is not like the other.

[Troacctid]

That looks to me like a specific exception to a general rule.

[Jormengand]

That looks to me like a specific exception to a general rule.

Which is why it's a pity that...

A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

A warpriest can prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

It's a general rule, which every class specifically excepts - Inquisitor and Oracle being spontaneous casters and all the other divine casters specifically overruling.

[No brains]

My reading was "he can only use this check with each skill once." So if you Ranged Legerdemain with Open Lock, you can't do that again that day, but you could ranged Sleight of Hand.

I read it similarly, but perhaps more ridiculously: the AT can use their ability multiple times a day, but only make one roll for it. I imagine it would be like recording the movements to do something and getting the chance to hit play so many times a day.

[Debatra]

Ice Assassin (Frostburn, page 98), bolding mine, italics WotC's.

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."

"The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original..."

Nowhere does it say you can't create an Ice Assassin of (for example) an undead creature, which would presumably include Constitution as a Nonability. However, "[a]ny living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution".

Has this spell been updated since Frostburn? Errata? It's not in the Spell Compendium at the very least.

[Curmudgeon]

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."

The fact that the original wasn't living or breathing makes the Ice Assassin only near-perfect. That's at least internally consistent.

Of course, there's no further guidance about what changes you need to make if you're duplicating an Undead and the result is a living, breathing Undead. There's always the old standby:

Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

[Debatra]

There's always the old standby:

Couldn't you just say that about half the spells in the Dysfunctional Handbook?

[Inevitability]

Couldn't you just say that about half the spells in the Dysfunctional Handbook?

Where's the fun in that?

[NeoPhoenix0]

we need to fully explore all possible absurdities before reducing it to *fizzle*. But in this case *fizzle* seems likely.

[Qwertystop]

Another possibility: It's living and breathing for a moment, on creation, because the spell creates it living and breathing. Then it dies, because it has Con 0. Whether it remains animate or not is uncertain.

Third possibility: The created creature matches the original, live one. This only really makes sense for the sort of undead that's a template - zombies and skeletons and such. The sort that are more like constructs made from corpses, or are otherwise unrelated to the original, that doesn't work.

[bekeleven]

Dharculus, from the planar handbook.

To use this ability, a dharculus must hit a Small or larger creature with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity...

[NeoPhoenix0]

Dharculus, from the planar handbook.

obviously they can only wrap their tentacles around something so small.

[Bucky]

Pathfinder, Divine Strategist Cleric archetype:

once per day as a swift action she may add her Intelligence modifier as a bonus on any single d20 roll made as part of a readied action.

But Swift actions can only be taken during her turn, which is also the only time she can't take a readied action.

[Jormengand]

Pathfinder, Divine Strategist Cleric archetype:


But Swift actions can only be taken during her turn, which is also the only time she can't take a readied action.

She can ready said action during her own turn, when she spends the swift action. Really, the dysfunction is that it doesn't say when the readied action she's adding the bonus to has to be taken, so she can take the swift action an hour before even readying the action.

[Debatra]

Where's the fun in that?

My point exactly.

[Jormengand]

If you catch on fire, it deals true damage, and so does exposure to extreme cold or immersion in acid. One would expect these to deal fire, cold or acid damage respectively, but nope. Just plain ol' damage.

[Kurald Galain]

If you catch on fire, it deals true damage, and so does exposure to extreme cold or immersion in acid. One would expect these to deal fire, cold or acid damage respectively, but nope. Just plain ol' damage.

Related is that one would expect fire resistance or fire immunity to work against heat stroke and sunburn, but nope. The same is true for cold resistance and frostbite. (edit) in PF at least.

[Troacctid]

Related is that one would expect fire resistance or fire immunity to work against heat stroke and sunburn, but nope. The same is true for cold resistance and frostbite.

That's not correct.

A character with a spell or effect granting cold resistance applies his resistance to both lethal and nonlethal damage from cold temperatures. For example, a creature with resistance to cold 5 subtracts 5 points from the 1d6 points of cold damage dealt per 10 minutes by extreme cold (and therefore might take 1 point of cold damage, if a 6 is rolled) and 5 points from the 1d4 points of nonlethal damage dealt. Since the character never takes any nonlethal damage from the cold, he will not suffer hypothermia or frostbite (see below).

A character with a spell or effect granting resistance to fire applies this resistance to both lethal and nonlethal damage from hot temperatures. For example, a creature with resistance to fire 5 subtracts 5 from the 1d6 points of lethal damage dealt per 10 minutes by extreme heat (and therefore might take 1 point of heat damage, if a 6 is rolled) and 5 from the 1d4 points of nonlethal damage dealt. In this example, since the creature ends up not taking any nonlethal damage from the heat, it need not worry about heatstroke or heat exhaustion.

[Kurald Galain]

That's not correct.

Not in 3.5, but it is correct in PF.

[Debatra]

Spoiler: Debatable

Show

Reach Spell/Arcane Reach/Divine Reach - A lot of touch spells specifically have "creature/object/etc touched" as their target line, drastically limiting the usefulness of these abilities.

Like I said: debatable.

I've just cracked open the Spell Compendium to see how many dysfunctions I can find before I get bored.

Acid Sheathe (page 7) lets you breathe underwater, in a vacuum, etc. It also lets you "cast spells" (get around daze/stun/etc?). "You can breathe normally and cast spells while the acid sheath is present." Depending on what "striking" means, it may also affect people using ranged weapons. Reach weapons, and only reach weapons, are specified as not endangering their users. It may also attach damage to nondamaging spells that have the acid descriptor and involve dice (it doesn't specify "per damage die", etc.).

Aiming at the Target (page 8) text refers to "the words of power to release this spell". Components: S. (The spell also has nothing to do with aiming/attack rolls/etc if we're still putting things like that in the handbook. [See also: "Amulet of Mighty Fists, Necklace of Natural Attacks"])

Amanuensis (page 9) can apparently only copy onto blank parchment, paper or book. The moment the spell starts copying text, these pages are no longer blank. Also, I think we can safely move "a page is not defined" up to various.

Analyze Portal (page 10-11) might actually just be me. Who here knows if "portal" or "magical portal" has a specific definition in 3.5e?

Anarchic/Axiomatic/Bless/Curse water apparently don't work if the water isn't in a flask.

Animate Breath (page 11-12) - Range: Personal. Target: Your breath weapon, which is not you.

---

Tomorrow: Hopefully the rest of the A's at least. Yeah, I'm really doing this.