Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata

[Jeff the Green]

Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, and the special spatial 'splosion they make together want to have a very loud word with you. Also if swallow whole scales with a creature's current size and not just its original size (or even if it does) you can end up with paradoxical amounts of space in a T-rex.

No, that's just a matter of something being bigger on the inside; its internal volume is greater than its external volume, but neither is actually negative.

[Lightlawbliss]

an overfilled container has negative space remaining.

[Flickerdart]

an overfilled container has negative space remaining.

No, it doesn't. It has no space remaining, and the remainder of the filling is outside of the container.

[The Random NPC]

Besides, with the magic involved, you could argue that there's no physics breaking. There's simply a 2 way portal to a larger volume attached to the mouth of the bag. As an aside, if I remember correctly, basements aren't counted for square footage, so there are many homes that are larger on the inside than on the outside.

[Necroticplague]

duration is an amount of time, it does not have a direction, that is the issue with that. going back in time would mean it would still have a positive duration.

edit: i explained that poorly, it's like having negative 2 apples

Time does have a direction, just like breadth, height, and length. It has 2 directions: forward is a positive number, backwards is a negative number. Having -2 apples isn't really that hard, it just means that you have 2 objects that will cancel out the next apples you get.

[Jeff the Green]

Time does have a direction, just like breadth, height, and length. It has 2 directions: forward is a positive number, backwards is a negative number.

/yes, time has a direction, as do space dimensions. However, length is not the same thing as position, nor is duration the same thing as time. You can say "this thing is located at -2 on the x axis", but not "this thing is -2 units long".

Having -2 apples isn't really that hard, it just means that you have 2 objects that will cancel out the next apples you get.

No, you have two things that cancel out apples. You could reasonably put "Apples: -2" in a ledger, but you no more have -2 apples than someone who owes someone else two apples.

[EisenKreutzer]

This is for Pathfinder, but it's kind of amusing.

A Ranger can dig a 30 foot deep hole and fill it with spikes as a full-round action, according to the trap creation rules.
This hole will magically vanish after 1 day/Ranger level.

[NeoPhoenix0]

This is for Pathfinder, but it's kind of amusing.

A Ranger can dig a 30 foot deep hole and fill it with spikes as a full-round action, according to the trap creation rules.
This hole will magically vanish after 1 day/Ranger level.

well they are either magical (supernatural) or extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities can explicitly break the laws of physics.

[EisenKreutzer]

well they are either magical (supernatural) or extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities can explicitly break the laws of physics.

I know, it's just funny because the traps were supposed to be a non-magic alternative for the Ranger.

[Jeff the Green]

I know, it's just funny because the traps were supposed to be a non-magic alternative for the Ranger.

They are non-magical; that's the point. They violate the normal laws of physics, but so does a rogue being able to dodge an explosion that fills the entire room.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

it's like haveing negative 2 apples

Anti-Matter Apples!!

[Sith_Happens]

If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp).

Bolding mine. A no-save-just-die will work on the Tarrasque.

[Mcdt2]

Got one from Pathfinder, although the exact level of dysfunction is arguable.

Clerics with the Artifice and Rune domains get Instant Summons at level 8 and 7 respectively. However, they are incapable of using it, as Clerics can not cast the required Arcane Mark, nor do the domains grant it or any way to negate this requirement. While they could probably just use a scroll and UMD, it seems unfair.

[Jeff the Green]

Bolding mine. A no-save-just-die will work on the Tarrasque.

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

[Flickerdart]

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

I seem to recall a high-level spell that required a ranged touch attack and had SR: Yes, but no saving throw involved.

[Necroticplague]

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

Disintegrate. Even if you make the save, if it knocks you down low enough, it turns you to dust (ignoring the can of worms resulting from asking if that counts as dead). So apparently a tarrasque can be finished off by a Wish or Disintegrate when its K.O'd. I'm sure there are other spells that are similar to Disintegrate in nature.

[Lightlawbliss]

Disintegrate. Even if you make the save, if it knocks you down low enough, it turns you to dust (ignoring the can of worms resulting from asking if that counts as dead). So apparently a tarrasque can be finished off by a Wish or Disintegrate when its K.O'd. I'm sure there are other spells that are similar to Disintegrate in nature.

disintegrate is a ray, so deflected.

[No brains]

A mind flayer's eat brain attack is 'just die'. So I guess two wrongs do make a right. Lead the Tarrasque to an Illithid collective and watch it roll all over them. If everyone is lucky one of them just eats its brain after a decimation or two.

[...]

In Underdark, the material for the Low-Light Vision spell requires a candle as a material component. In most cases, if you had a candle, you could just use that instead of burning a first-level spell slot.

[nedz]

In Underdark, the material for the Low-Light Vision spell requires a candle as a material component. In most cases, if you had a candle, you could just use that instead of burning a first-level spell slot.

But Low-Light Vision just doubles the range of your other candles.

[Fax Celestis]

Not to mention that a candle only lights a 5' square with bright light and shadowy illumination for another 5'. Pretty sure low-light vision will be more helpful than that.

[Lightlawbliss]

In Underdark, the material for the Low-Light Vision spell requires a candle as a material component. In most cases, if you had a candle, you could just use that instead of burning a first-level spell slot.

low light vision is more vision then a candle.

wait, does that mean a spell component pouch contains candles?

edit: swordsaged

[Sith_Happens]

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

Power Word Kill comes to mind, though it's not exactly practical since you'll need to have gotten Big T ~88% dead via trollbane-laced attacks already before it'll work (assuming that trollbane works on Big T, I forget whether it's technically a poison or not).

[Fax Celestis]

Is Big T immune to suffocation? Because there's always aboleth mucus or crisis of breath.

Blasphemy with a ludicrously high CL (58+)?

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

[...]

wait, does that mean a spell component pouch contains candles?

edit: swordsaged

Well, I guess it does. There should just be a thread about weird things in material component pouches.

[Sith_Happens]

Is Big T immune to suffocation? Because there's always aboleth mucus or crisis of breath.

It is not immune, though there appears to be a RAW-Failure Sandwich surrounding whether suffocation kills it or knocks it to 858 nonlethal. On one hand, the Constitution check to hold your breath after the 2*CON-nth round is erroneously referred to as a "save." On the other hand, failing this "save" does not kill you instantly (it kills you three rounds later).

Blasphemy with a ludicrously high CL (58+)?

Definitely works.

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

Probably sent to a random plane, since there's a 20% chance of that happening anyways.

[nedz]

Not to mention that a candle only lights a 5' square with bright light and shadowy illumination for another 5'. Pretty sure low-light vision will be more helpful than that.

Nope - twice as far in dim light.

Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

[Gemini476]

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

Ah, Incarnation of Angels. What a dysfunctional little utterance you are.

Zaq already has this in his Truenamer handbook, but I'll repost it here:

Check out the utterance Incarnation of Angels. There's nothing saying that the target must be willing, and there's no saving throw. If you head over to the Monster Manual and look at what the Celestial and Fiendish templates do, you see that they grant the target the [Extraplanar] subtype . . . which means you can pull out a scroll of Dismissal or Banishment (or nudge your Wizard/Cleric buddy and have them do the dirty work) and just get rid of whoever you cast Incarnation of Angels on. Where do they go? It doesn't say, but it's unambiguous that they have the [Extraplanar] tag and thus will be no longer your problem, at least not for a while.

Cheese Rating: 2/5. Incarnation of Angels is a pretty sucky utterance other than this, and it's not like Dismissal is guaranteed to work, especially if you're scrolling it. There are plenty of ways to say “if you fail a Will save, you're not my problem anymore,” and this one is pretty elaborate for what it does. The real problem with it is that there's no indication of where Dismissal actually sends them.

It's a DC 55 Truespeak No Save No SR ranged give-the-target-a-template ability. The big problem is that, beyond being pretty useless, nobody knows what happens when you banish a temporarily Celestial Tarrasque.

...Also, the save DC for Banishment is pretty screwed up.

[NeoPhoenix0]

If you use that utterance they obviously go to the plane of "can't taste ice cream"

[Necroticplague]

Only a minor dysfunction in rules (they work, but definitely not as intended), and another indicator that the people who write examples have no clue how the rules work.

Under Maho-tsukai, we have the Maho metamagic class feature, which reads as follows:

A maho-tsukai who learns metamagic feats can apply them by paying an additional cost in blood. By draining blood, the maho-tsukai can enhance her spells without using a higher-level spell slot. The cost is a number of points of temporary Constitution damage equal to the level of the metamagic spell. Thus, to cast a vampiric touch spell with the Empower Spell feat applied costs the maho-tsukai 5 points of temporary Constitution damage (3rd-level spell + two levels for Empower Spell). The maho-tsukai cannot enhance a spell to a level higher than he can cast by this means. For example, a maho-tsukai must be at least 9th level to cast an Empowered vampiric touch, even though the spell uses only a 3rd-level slot.

Apparently, whoever wrote this wasn't aware that metamagics other than Heighten and Sanctum, and their derivatives don't actually change a spell's level. So in the example given, is wrong, because an Empowered Vampiric Touch is still a third-level spell. And the last clause really only stops you from Heightening the spell above what you can cast,because anything else wouldn't raise the spell to a higher level at all. So technically, nothing stopping you from slathering all the metamagic you know on a cantrip for free (zero level spell=0 con damage).

And on an entirely related note, I think I've found a good new use for Strongheart Vests.