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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by Daishain View Post
    Even leaving aside whatever undefined nasty stuff will happen without this bloodline...

    The lack of an heir in a feudal society typically leads to a lot of chaos and death. Exactly how much chaos occurs depends on a lot of different factors, but it is not unreasonable to say that the Prince failing to do this particular job risks the lives of each and every citizen under his rule.
    There's chaos and death regardless. Smooth power transitions in feudal society are a joke. It's often worse without an heir, but there tend to be messes regardless.

    As for the actual topic, artificial insemination should work. It's not like the technology behind them is really all that sophisticated, and the emperor has the budget to have things machined to high precision. Plus, you know, magic.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    As for the actual topic, artificial insemination should work. It's not like the technology behind them is really all that sophisticated, and the emperor has the budget to have things machined to high precision. Plus, you know, magic.
    Work and in produce a child yes, but produce an heir is a separate question.
    In a place where bloodline is important (even if not the everything that it is in the draconic nation nearby) then magical means of producing children would be a big issue. Also unless the prince consort is not treated the same as queen then the emperor would child would either need to be the result of adultery or polygamy...which could be a problem with rules of succession. If we say the child is a bastard then the question comes up of how bastards are treated in the empire. If they can inherit (basically the blood totally supersedes station) then such a choice would have consequences. A young lad getting hit with a charm person or glibness casting young sorceress who just imbibed a fertility potion would suddenly have upended the political scene if the lad was the heir to the local lordship. Which may change the nature of the Empire in ways the DM doesn't want. If bastards can't inherit then the emperor wanting his son to threatens to destabilize every inheritance (at least within the noble class) as various bastards and children of bastards claim the same right as the heir designate-or various nobles act to prevent such claims etc.
    Also with the focus on bloodlines even just rumors of various slight-of-hands on who is actually the father would be a big issue. Common fodder for bards tales and children's bedtime stories. To say either a system to officiate and authenticate bloodlines and what counts as official vs authentic for inheritance needs to be created or massive distrust would push out any acceptance of magical aid/ not natural birth or whatnot. The more import is put on bloodline the more people with d stuff, including nasty stuff, to protect said bloodline.
    So whatever choice is made the issue of how a bloodline focused empire deals with bastards/adultery/polygamy will have to dealt with too. Either as the Emperor is using such rules to get an heir, or going up against them as a source of conflict in the Empire.

    Which may be why even if possible to produce an heir magical means. Adopting his second cousin who has the right heritage is the easier option.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Alternatively:

    Emperor decides ensuring the continuation of the bloodline and legitimacy of his heir is more important than personal feelings, so divorces his prince and marries a politically suitable noblewoman.

    Prince is understandably upset.

    Cue recriminations, plotting, conflicts of loyalty, people claiming the Empress's child can't possibly be the Emperors (because everyone knows he's gay), other factions trying to exploit the situation, and threats to the stability of the realm, etc.

    Exactly the sort of thing that you may need a group of adventurers to sort out.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Alternatively:

    Emperor decides ensuring the continuation of the bloodline and legitimacy of his heir is more important than personal feelings, so divorces his prince and marries a politically suitable noblewoman.

    Prince is understandably upset.
    Or we could do something which has been re-hashed a dozen times over in this thread:

    He could simply write down the "official" marriage on paper, do his duty when needed, keep the wife in some room on the other side of the palace with plenty of handsome young men to keep her happy, then spend his time with the prince and continue to be just as lovey-dovey as before. That's more or less what nobles often did anyway. They knew that marriages were all about business, so they keep mistresses and things for pleasure. Of course, he'd talk the prince through all this beforehand, assuring him that the emperor still loves the prince as much as ever, and that these arrangements are entirely his duty to the empire. In ideal circumstances, the prince would agree and hopefully get over it.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    It somehow just now occurred to me: You said that the country in question has no problems culturally with an Emperor/Prince-Consort pair. Have they actually had to deal with such in practice before, or is this the first time ever? Because if the former, then they should by now have established procedures and relevant laws for it.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Or there's clauses dealing with same-sex marriages and succession via designated reproductive proxy which wouldn't involve anything that would have any effect on the way that inheritance would work for heterosexual noble pairings.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Think about Renly and Loras form the Game of thrones series.

    They love each other But Renly wants to be king. So he puts the feelings aside and do what he must to be a good king. (And keep having a relationship with his squire in secret).

    It is not fair with the queen but love is something created by the modern society. It has no place in the court.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    It is not fair with the queen but love is something created by the modern society. It has no place in the court.
    I think this attitude is more recent than you purport Love to be.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    I think this attitude is more recent than you purport Love to be.
    There actually have been quite a few interesting studies on the origins of romantic love and its displays throughout history. There is a debate currently going in academia whether or not "courtly love" of the medieval period is anything at all like the notions of romance we find today. Though the jury is still out (and probably will be for our natural lives, academics love arguing around in circles), it's widely agreed the displays of love and how people in societies reacted about feelings of romance are very different to what the current western influenced perception of love is.

    While personally, I find the whole thing rather dull if you're interested there are a few books on the subject I could recommend.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    The idea of having an "official" spouse for the sole purpose of procreation, and a "recognized partner" for... well... everything else... isn't unheard of. Or modern, either. The concept of the Maitress-en-titre, also known as the Chief Mistress or Official Mistress, emerged in the court of King Henry IV of France in the late 1500s. One of the most famous of these was Jeanne Antoinette Poisson, also known as Madame de Pompadour, fourth Official Mistress of King Louis XV; she was installed at the palace at Versailles, complete with official title and recognition by the royal court, managed various household affairs and took charge of the king's schedule, got along with the actual Queen Consort, Marie Leszczynska, and was bloody brilliant on top of everything else.

    The thing to remember is that, in the royal court, everyone knows and understands their role. And the monarch's primary role is to preserve the line of the monarchy and the stability of the country. So long as he does that, he can do pretty much whatever, to whomever, however, and whenever he wants.

    Let the Emperor take a bride. Make it a political marriage, if you like, or not. Just because he's not romantically interested in her doesn't mean they can't be good friends. Anyway, she'll be the bloody Empress, which isn't a bad consolation prize; as long as she produces his heir and promotes the face of a stable marriage and monarch, I don't think anyone will mind if she has a lover on the side. They'll have a marriage and an heir, and he can have his true love. Heck, give him an official post and title and install him in the palace. Unless homosexuality is a taboo in this setting, I don't see any problems.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    Work and in produce a child yes, but produce an heir is a separate question.
    In a place where bloodline is important (even if not the everything that it is in the draconic nation nearby) then magical means of producing children would be a big issue.
    I'm talking about something akin to a turkey baster. Simple technology, which might have magical production, maybe even some magical materials (e.g. pseudorubber), but which doesn't really need any of it.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I'm talking about something akin to a turkey baster. Simple technology, which might have magical production, maybe even some magical materials (e.g. pseudorubber), but which doesn't really need any of it.
    Magical or not, depending on how the local populous/nobility feels about it any non natural birth could well be suspect. Using subterfuge or secret magic to have two reservoirs in the baster and collecting the Emperors "seed" and squirting the other sample. Or having a second baster and using slight-of-hand to switch them out. Or even just the rumours that these might have happened would be an issue. Even if it isn't necessarily a consideration in this case per se a number of such scares at some point in history could have thrown problems onto this method in the minds of those who need to buy into the heir's right to inherit. And when it comes to Kings those rules that focus on the monarch's main job of preventing instability tend to get stricter (as the others get more open to royal right to do whatever) and succession is one of those areas that tend to draw the stricter interpretations as you climb the social ranks overall anyway.
    That said there could be an official royal turkey baster with official keepers and users for just these sorts of things and it is loaned out to nobles with fertility problems and so while any other turkey baster based pregnancy is invalid one with the the "special" one and team is fine.
    But it still wouldn't change issues of heirs from an adulterous or polygamous relationship. And how the society views such children.
    Its a matter of any technique that the DM chooses to use as OK is either going to be okay in the society in general (which could be problematic on a wider level) or going to be set up in opposition to social norms and dealing with such consequences.
    Last edited by sktarq; 2014-09-29 at 02:10 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    The turkey baster is sentient, can tell who it has been used on and is magically enchanted to only speak the truth (or heck, throw it into a Zone of Truth). Problem solved.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    That doesn't even need to be sarcastic, that'd be good as an actual idea... It'd stop the table due to laughter for a while, and you'd kinda hope you never needed to talk for it, but it'd work.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    It strains credulity that an empire wherein the bloodline of the ruler is critical would have laws which both allowed an inevitably infertile match and which prevented alternative parentage. Bastards were traditionally a problem in noble lines precisely because they could inherit, and it was a sticky question as to whether they could inherit ahead of younger legitimate half-siblings. It was generally - though not always - considered binding if the noble in question recognized one of his bastard children and declared him in the line of succession. (Female nobility had it a little easier; it's clearly her kid, and whether it's a bastard or not is not provable pre-DNA unless she's known to not be married.)

    But they did consider the bloodline to be sufficient to make a case. In this empire, the bloodline is literally the source of the protective magic. So the laws would be carefully written to ensure that, whatever happened, the Emperor's blood progeny (and relatives) would be eligible for the throne.

    Therefore, even if the laws allow for same-sex unions with legal force equal to marriage, they would NOT be written to preclude a heterosexual union between the Emperor and a fertile mate from producing an heir in the event that the Emperor's designated Queen or Prince-Consort were unable to produce one (for any reason).

    In fact, if anything, this would be a strong reason to have a law which, even if this is normally not permitted, gave the Emperor a legal right (and perhaps responsibility) to have a harem of wives and concubines, the children of which are all considered legitimate. Even if nobody else is permitted this, it makes sense due to the national security concerns surrounding the imperial bloodline. If the Emperor (or Empress) happens to ALSO fill it with members of his (or her) own sex for his...personal taste...that's his (or her) prerogative. Though that would open sticky questions of the parentage of the harem-produced children, since the mixed-sex harem could be *ahem* entertaining itself. At least with a male Emperor. A female Empress obviously is going to know which kids are hers.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    In fact, if anything, this would be a strong reason to have a law which, even if this is normally not permitted, gave the Emperor a legal right (and perhaps responsibility) to have a harem of wives and concubines, the children of which are all considered legitimate. Even if nobody else is permitted this, it makes sense due to the national security concerns surrounding the imperial bloodline. If the Emperor (or Empress) happens to ALSO fill it with members of his (or her) own sex for his...personal taste...that's his (or her) prerogative. Though that would open sticky questions of the parentage of the harem-produced children, since the mixed-sex harem could be *ahem* entertaining itself. At least with a male Emperor. A female Empress obviously is going to know which kids are hers.
    The Emperor (or Empress) could always have the male part of their harem at one end of the palace and the female part at the other end, plus some guards of the same gender as their charges, to keep them separate.

    Or possibly on separate islands, in different lakes.

    Alternatively maybe the clerks are very, very good at keeping track, there's an extensive garden full of alchemical supplies, that, to quote Terry Pratchett, allow you to sow your wild oats whilst guaranting a crop failure, or perhaps they've invented physical contraception methods.

    Or maybe the harem's carefully selected so that those members who're the same gender as the ruler aren't attracted in any way to the other gender - thus essentially rendering the point moot.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiRagnarok View Post
    No.
    The term is rape.
    What's worse - that one guy gets raped or that an entire nation get thrown into chaos, causing deaths of a large proportion of the population?

    I'm a rape victim, and I'd still support telling him to put up with it if the nation depended on it.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Again, it's not rape. It is, at worst, an unpleasant duty, and it can be done as clinically as desired. Heck, "turkey baster" approaches do not even require actual intercourse.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Right, I mean, it's about 10 minutes of awkwardness with someone who is most likely at least a friend of theirs and probably also preferring to be with her own boyfriend (or girlfriend), done a couple times a month for a short period of time, to hold closed the oblivion gate or whatever. That's IT.
    The cost is... not horribly severe - how many other fiction stories show people doing things like slicing their hand open to get blood to activate the whatchamajig? Nobody is terribly shocked by "I slice my hand open and grab the blood drinking rune to seal the great evil in". Why should we be horrified by "*sigh* I have to go do.. *stuff*.. with my friend Princess Jennifer after dinner before I can go snuggle my boyfriend"?
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    An option I didn't see noted:

    Our queer emperor doesn't want, by any means, to produce an heir. There's pressure, sure. Everyone's begging him to. But no, he is not going to succumb to such petty and unnecessary things. He's better than that and he's got a better idea in mind.

    So our emperor uses foul magic to transform himself into [choose your favorite immortal intelligent undead]. Boom, no heir needed. Plus, you get the stability of a single emperor forever (provided our emperor can stand up to the wars and such which will undoubtedly occur in the aftermath - but he gets to maintain his position and not compromise his sexuality). Perhaps cast Gentle Repose on his own corpse daily and people might not even catch on for a few decades, enough time that he could establish enough credibility with the nobility and the peasantry that they like having him as emperor and don't feel much desire for a new one.

    Of course, going this route might well indulge in far greater evil than that which the bloodline is preventing from befalling the kingdom. Such is the price of hubris, after all.

    And then the mists take him and his kingdom plunges into great turmoil while he's tormented in Ravenloft as a dark lord.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2014-09-29 at 12:44 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    The whole "homosexuality" problem is almost irrelevant here. The OP says that he is uncomfortable with having sex as a duty and that isn't on the table, so it is really irrelevant why. The emperor could be sterile or in a monogamous relationship with a female who for whatever reason can't bear their children, the emperor could be a woman who can't bring a child to term, could be a member of the clergy who has taken a vow of chastity, could be a child doomed to die before maturity, could have a crippling genetic disease, could simply be asexual, etc.

    There is no solution to this problem. If they are the only person who carries the bloodline (which is kind of a bad setup in the first place IMO, what would happen if the emperor chokes on a grape and dies before producing an heir?), and for ANY reason they can't produce children, then the bloodline is going to die out.

    The only way for this to work is for some magical / technological macguffin comes along that allows them to produce a child without sex or transfer the bloodline to an adoptive heir. There really isn't any other option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    There is no solution to this problem. If they are the only person who carries the bloodline (which is kind of a bad setup in the first place IMO, what would happen if the emperor chokes on a grape and dies before producing an heir?), and for ANY reason they can't produce children, then the bloodline is going to die out.

    The only way for this to work is for some magical / technological macguffin comes along that allows them to produce a child without sex or transfer the bloodline to an adoptive heir. There really isn't any other option.
    Where the technological macguffin is a glorified syringe, sure. Modern materials aren't needed. Modern knowledge isn't needed (an understanding of pressure helps, but it's such a basic understanding that basically any culture sophisticated enough to understand blowpipes has it under control). It's about as much of a macguffin as technology that lets one walk where it's too cold for bare feet.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It's about as much of a macguffin as technology that lets one walk where it's too cold for bare feet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    The OP says that he is uncomfortable with having sex as a duty and that isn't on the table
    And yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
    If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    An option I didn't see noted:

    Our queer emperor doesn't want, by any means, to produce an heir. There's pressure, sure. Everyone's begging him to. But no, he is not going to succumb to such petty and unnecessary things. He's better than that and he's got a better idea in mind.

    So our emperor uses foul magic to transform himself into [choose your favorite immortal intelligent undead]. Boom, no heir needed. Plus, you get the stability of a single emperor forever (provided our emperor can stand up to the wars and such which will undoubtedly occur in the aftermath - but he gets to maintain his position and not compromise his sexuality). Perhaps cast Gentle Repose on his own corpse daily and people might not even catch on for a few decades, enough time that he could establish enough credibility with the nobility and the peasantry that they like having him as emperor and don't feel much desire for a new one.

    Of course, going this route might well indulge in far greater evil than that which the bloodline is preventing from befalling the kingdom. Such is the price of hubris, after all.

    And then the mists take him and his kingdom plunges into great turmoil while he's tormented in Ravenloft as a dark lord.
    ...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead. At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

    (making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-09-29 at 03:54 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    ...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead. At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

    (making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    ...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead. At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

    (making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)

    All part of the point. Hubris has a tendency of blinding people to things like that. Getting the Mists involved was entirely the purpose of that idea.

    Besides, then you have the fun of having the party decide what to do - get the emperor's dumb ass out of Ravenloft or stop whatever doom thingy is coming their way because the emperor's in Ravenloft.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2014-09-29 at 09:17 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    All part of the point. Hubris has a tendency of blinding people to things like that. Getting the Mists involved was entirely the purpose of that idea.

    Besides, then you have the fun of having the party decide what to do - get the emperor's dumb ass out of Ravenloft or stop whatever doom thingy is coming their way because the emperor's in Ravenloft.
    Sounds like a fun plan.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    And yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
    If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.
    I agree - this whole thread has basically been about finding the loopholes in the original scenario. And as I posted further up thread, the central figure of this isn't someone who's gay and been told to sleep with a woman or else, it's someone who's gay, has been told for his entire life that his second most important duty is to produce heirs to the throne of the nation he rules, a duty superceeded only by his duty to protect the throne and the nation by any means necessary (and to an extent, producing heirs is a part of his duty to protect the throne/nation), and is surrounded by courtiers and/or civil servants who are determined that there will be heirs, by whatever means.

    Lie back and think of Greyhawk is an option, as are The Royal Turkey Baster, Remote control, courtiers getting him blind drunk or stoned enough and in the morning pulling out some old law that grants them immunity the Emperor's retribution, illusions and partial polymorphing and a male relative.

    Whether an option is actually used or not is another matter. Maybe they're sensitive to his wishes and go for his closest male relative as the simple option. Maybe they think they need to use more direct methods.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: *Queer Emperor Probelm

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    And yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
    If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.
    Plus, we haven't been told what would actually happen if the bloodline should fail. (Nor why it would necessarily fail with the death of the emperor. Depending on how the blood line is traced and what rules of succession are used, there could be any number of younger brothers, cousins, etc, sharing the bloodline who would be next in line. The only reason that wouldn't be the case is if the OP decided otherwise, presumably for specific plot reasons).

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