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    Default Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Know Your Enemy: A Fighter's Handbook


    This handbook has been put on indefinite hold. If anyone wants to make a new one, go ahead. I'm sorry.


    Picture is not mine. If it was, it'd probably be horribly deformed or something.

    “If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.”

    -Sun Tzu, The Art of War



    Ah, the fighter. One of the most iconic D&D classes for sure. Nowadays people may talk about paladins and rangers and barbarians and whatnot, but all those classes have their roots in the good old fighter. And while these classes get shoehorned in certain roles, the fighter can specialize in a wide array of roles. Want to be an axe-wielding dwarf juggernaut charging through the enemy's lines? Fighter. Want to be a deft elven archer picking of his foes from afar? Fighter. Want to be a mystic human warrior who also possesses mighty magic? Fighter. Want to be a charismatic half-elf general, commanding his allies and able to negionate as well as he fights? Fighter. About time this class got a guide dedicated to it, don't you think?

    Selling Points: Why be a fighter?

    Fighters fight. And boy, they're good at it. Twice as many attacks as the other classes, a fighting style of your choice, self-healing ability and Action Surge? Sold.

    Fighters are versatile. I already said it, but I'm going to do it again. Fighters can be built in a lot of ways, each of which plays in its own way. Barbarians and Paladins are pretty much forced into a certain niche, but you can do what you want with your fighter.

    Fighters are simple. Give a player a fighter, and even if he has never played D&D before, he'll probably be able to do something with it. At the same time, that player isn't left with an one-trick-pony when he starts to learn the system better.

    Color Coding:

    Light Blue: Yes please. This is great, and you probably want it. This rating will also be used for things that are mandatory for a certain build.
    Blue: Quite good, and something most of you'll want to consider.
    Black: Taking this won't hurt, but looking for something better won't either. Take it if you like to.
    Purple Purple is Evil and that's no exception here. Think carefully before picking this.
    Red Above comment on color applies, except it's even worse here. Avoid it like you'd avoid a rust monster with your +5 Sword of Slaying.

    Note that these ratings may differ depending on campaign, setting or build. Moreover, all ratings are meant for Strength-based fighters unless noted otherwise.

    And always remember; if you like a feature/race/option, just pick it!

    Fighter Basics:

    1d10 HD: Second best in the game, next to the barbarians 1d12. Enough to be a good tank, especially when combined with your high AC. Still, your focus on stats other than constitution makes me want this was more.
    All Armor and Weapon proficiencies: Sweeeeet. All weapons, all armor, and shields. Only the paladin gets the same. The only reason this isn't light blue is that there are other ways to get those proficiencies.
    Saving Throws: Constitution is good for a lot of things, from breath weapons to unholy magic. Strength is useful for standing your ground. Good enough, especially when compared to what other classes get.

    Fighting Roles

    When you want to build a fighter, there are a couple of things to consider. First of all, what ability score are you going to use? And how will you be fighting?

    Spoiler: STR vs. DEX
    Show
    The first question is: are you going to use strength or dexterity? Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, so think carefully.

    Strength:
    -You can use more weapons. So far there are 31 weapons strength-based characters can use, versus 13 that a dexterity-based fighter would use.
    -You deal more damage. All of the heavy-hitting weapons, such as mauls and greatswords, can't be used with dexterity.
    -You aren't slowed down by heavy armor. In a game where charging doesn't exist, speed is more important than it may seem.
    -Athletics can be used for climbing and swimming, both checks that are likely to come up.

    Dexterity:
    -Initiative. Going first means extra attacks. Extra attacks mean easier fight.
    -Ranged weapons. Unless you want to hurl javelins, you're going to need dexterity for ranged combat.
    -Dexterity has three skills keying off of it, as opposed to one.
    -Saving throws. Dexterity is a far more common saving throw than strength, especially when you fight at range.
    -If you are fighting at range, speed isn't that important anyway.


    Spoiler: Fighting Role
    Show
    In combat, you may want to be the 'I can use all weapons, and so I do!' guy, but most of you will probably want to stick to a single style. A few of the most interesting are noted here.

    Sword and Board: I'd say this is the best way to play a fighter. Not only can you choose between dexterity and strength as your primary stat, you also gain great fighting styles, acceptable damage, and about the best AC in the game.

    Two-weapon fighting: *gasp* Multiple ratings! TWF starts out as the most damaging fighting style in the book, but drops in usefulness later on. At low/mid-level, it becomes a slightly less damaging and more defensive greatweaponer, which I feel is a bad tradeoff, and at high level even the humble Sword-and-boarder will surpass it in both damage and defense.


    Ability Scores:

    Strength-fighter:

    Strength: Smashing things. Need I say more?
    Dexterity: Initiative is important, but most dexterity saving throws will only deal straight damage, which you shouldn't worry about too much.
    Constitution: There is no reason not to put this somewhere high, and little reason to not take it all the way to 20.
    Intelligence: I'm sorry for all Roy fans, but this is simply not important for you. However, if you are an Eldritch Knight, you should make this your second or third-highest score.
    Wisdom: Perception is important, and you gain three other skills that use this. It's a common save on top of that. Try not to dump it.
    Charisma: Meh. Only useful for intimidation, which you honestly should leave to your paladin, bard or sorcerer. Oh, and for a single Battlemaster maneuver.

    Dexterity-Fighter:

    Strength: Dump it. You need no heavy armor, you need no athletics and strength saves are less likely to come up if you're shooting arrows from a distance.
    Dexterity: Initiative, saving throws, damage, attack, AC... No reason not to put this high, and keep it high.
    Constitution: Still great.
    Intelligence: You're still a Big Dumb Fighter. Of course, Eldritch Knights are an exception here.
    Wisdom: Useful, and maybe even more important for you than it is for strength-based fighters.
    Charisma: Still bad. Being dextrous doesn't mean you suddenly should also be charming.

    Spoiler: Suggested Ability Score arrays
    Show

    Spoiler: Strength
    Show
    Non-Eldritch Knight:

    STR: 15 (9 points)
    DEX: 12 (4 points)
    CON: 15 (9 points)
    INT: 8 (0 points)
    WIS: 13 (5 points)
    CHA: 8 (0 points)

    Eldritch Knight:

    STR: 15 (9 points)
    DEX: 10 (2 points)
    CON: 14 (7 points)
    INT: 14 (7 points)
    WIS: 10 (2 points)
    CHA: 8 (0 points)


    Spoiler: Dexterity
    Show
    Non-Eldritch Knight:
    STR: 8 (0 points)
    DEX: 15 (9 points)
    CON: 15 (9 points)
    INT: 8 (0 points)
    WIS: 15 (9 points)
    CHA: 8 (0 points)

    Eldritch Knights:

    STR: 8 (0 points)
    DEX: 15 (9 points)
    CON: 13 (5 points)
    INT: 15 (9 points)
    WIS: 12 (4 points)
    CHA: 8 (0 points)


    Races:

    About everyone with a dexterity or strength bonus can become a fighter, which is about 3/4 of the races here. The others should either be a ranger or a paladin, or something else that needs mental stats.

    Spoiler: PHB
    Show
    Dwarf. Cliched, I know. However, it is actually pretty good when you consider the features. Then again, I'm a sucker for anything that adds utility to a combat-focused character...
    -Hill Dwarf. HP boost and more wisdom. Nice.
    -Mountain Dwarf. Useless armor and very helpful strength. The strongest of the two dwarves.

    Elf. Dexterity bonus? Free perception? Trance? I like it. Ratings are for dexterity-fighters, as you probably expected.
    -High Elf. A free cantrip? Yes please. Intelligence is next to useless though. Overall, this race adds a lot to an already good base, assuming you go for a dexterity-fighter.
    -Wood Elf. Wisdom boost, higher speed and sneakiness. I can work with this, thank you very much.
    -Dark Elf. Charisma (ugh) better darkvision (nice) and spells (not bad). Oh, and Sunlight Sensitivity (Why, oh WOTC?). This feature is a large part of the rating here, so if it won't come into play a lot, I guess the race improves to blue.

    Halfling. Small, so no big weapons for you. Brave and Lucky can both be really useful and if you are going dexterity, there isn't a lot you won't like about those little guys. The ratings here assume you do.
    -Lightfoot Halfling. Charisma boost, and you can hide easier. I bet those abilities will come in handy on my fighter! Except not, so be a Strongheart instead.
    -Strongheart Halfling. You gain a constitution boost. Resist poison will be useful against a pretty large number of monsters (and failing that, it'll at least mean you can drink like a dwarf).

    Human. Very bland. That's all I have to say here.
    -Standard human. Too unfocused. Half your ability boosts will probably be useless, not to mention that the whole race gets a bit boring eventually.
    -Variant human The free feat seems weak, but is actually a great thing to have. Maybe pick Sentinel for extra tankyness? Polearm Master for extra damage? Resilient for proficiency in wisdom saves? How about Tavern Brawler to gain half-orc-level ability scores? This race has so much potential, and it'd be a waste to not try it at least once.

    Dragonborn. From what I've heard, the breath weapon is useful more often than it may seem. Still, I doubt it'll beat the cool stuff you can do with your action at higher levels, and the charisma bonus sucks.

    Gnome. Another small race, but those are smart instead of agile. I like Gnome Cunning, and darkvision is always useful, but I wouldn't use those if I wasn't playing an eldritch knight.
    -Forest Gnome. Speaking with animals and a free cantrip? Sure, why not. Blue if you're going down the dexterity route instead.
    -Rock Gnome. Tinker is a very fun feature, and constitution is always useful. Still, feels a bit lacking.

    Half-Elf. Free skills, a solid ability and bonuses to the stats you like make those a surprisingly good pick.

    Half-Orc. All the features are meant for damage-dealing melee classes... which is both the greatest strength and greatest weakness of this race. If you won't be fighting a lot, drop the rating to Blue. Dexterity-users need not apply.

    Tiefling. Of course you want to play a tiefling fighter! After all their ability scores... I mean, their great racial synergy... er... their amazing roleplay potential? Seriously though, this race wasn't meant to be fighters, and almost everything done by it can be done by another race.


    Skills:

    You get two skills from an acceptable list. I'd go with Athletics/Acrobatics and Perception most of the time, but depending on your campaign other skills may be more worth it.

    Spoiler: Class Skills
    Show
    Acrobatics - Not so great as it is mostly redundant with Athletics. When you want this, ask yourself: What do I get from this I don't get from athletics? However, if you are dexterity-primary, then it is great and likely the first skill you'll pick.

    Animal Handling - Riding and taming animals. More a ranger's thing, although I can see it being useful.

    Athletics - Primary stat, and it's used for a lot of things, from grappling to swimming. Take it and love it. Obviously, it becomes less great when you are dexterity-based and can just take acrobatics.

    History - Not your job. If you are an Eldritch Knight, you can consider it, but leave it to the wizard if that's not the case.

    Insight - Telling if people are lying can be useful; but then again, you hopefully have someone wiser than you. A good pick in a social campaign.

    Intimidation - Together with insight your social skill set. Neat, but you won't likely have a lot of Charisma. This skill can have a lot of potential though, depending on what your DM allows it to do.

    Perception - I don't care that your wisdom isn't great: this is the best skill in the game (is there any D&D edition where it isn't useful?) and it comes up a lot. Invisible opponents? PERCEPTION. Impeding ambush? PERCEPTION. Need to search a room? PERCEPTION. Stealthy enemies? PERCEPTION.

    Survival - Again something I expect the party's ranger to do, but it actually has a lot of uses. Tracking, foraging, navigating... A pity you don't have a lot of wisdom.


    Spoiler: Non-Class Skills
    Show
    Arcana - An intelligence-based skill, but actually a pretty good one. About everything that isn't 'natural' can be identified with this. For Eldritch Knights, this one is pretty much mandatory.

    Deception - If I said this was something you should take, I'd be lying. (Do you get it? Do you get it?)

    Investigation - Seeing through illusions already make this interesting, the wide range of uses for it only increase the rating. For normal fighters it is still kind of meh, but an Eldritch Knights should seriously think about picking it up.

    Medicine - NO. Buying a healer's kit and/or having a cleric with you already makes this skill near useless. Probably the least useful skill in the game so far.

    Nature - Little reason to take it. Even the Eldritch Knights should pass this one up. Beasts and Plants have few special abilities, so even if you face them often this won't tell you a lot.

    Performance - Allows you to live wealthily between adventures, but has little use beyond that.

    Persuasion - This skill is actually not that bad, even when considering your terrible charisma.

    Religion - Same as Nature: Terrible for everyone but EK's, and even they don't want it very badly.

    Sleight of Hand - Meh. Not that likely to come up in actual play and it'll only fetch you a few gold at best. Even if you are dexterity-based I'd avoid this.

    Stealth - I used to rate this worse, but recent comments have made me realize that it might as well become a very, very often used skill. If you are dexterity-based, assume it is rated blue.


    Backgrounds

    A couple of decent backgrounds, a couple pieces of trash, and a lot of inbetweens. I'd go with Sailor, Outlander or Soldier most of the time.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Acolyte - Two skills that range from utterly worthless to moderately useful and two free languages. The feature may be very useful but I myself don't see a lot of situations where it'd be something I'd choose over some of the other backgrounds.

    Charlatan - I like the feature, but its focus on stats that are tertiary for you at most mean I can't really rate it higher than this.

    Criminal - The feature is not that great, and the skills and proficiencies don't really help getting this to a level where I'd recommend it. Black at most, Blue for dexterity-users.

    Entertainer - Another background not really made for you, although the feature is nice. The Gladiator variant deserves honorable mention. Of course, if you are going Dexterity, it becomes better

    Folk Hero - Solid skills, a flexible tool proficiency (even better for dwarves) and vehicle proficiency make up for the boring feature. All considered one of the better backgrounds to have.

    Guild Artistian - Good enough skills, proficiencies that are about equal to the Folk Hero's, and a great feature. Uncommon but surprisingly good.

    Hermit - The skills are bad and the feature is DM dependent, but the Herbalism Kit may be reason enough to think about this.

    Noble - The skills are not that great, and the proficiencies aren't golden either. Your feature may come in handy a lot though, and the alternative servant option is interesting too.

    Outlander - You are going to pick athletics any way, so that is basically a free skill. The proficiencies are less great, but the feature will prevent the group from starving if someone rolls poorly for survival. Dexterity-users have less to like here.

    Sage - Okaaaaaay... Two skills, one of which is worthless, languages, and a feature that is worthless at the worst and a plot-hook generator at best.

    Sailor - Now we're talking. Great skills, nice proficiencies, and an useful feature. Bad Reputation should be a lot of fun (no, they actually aren't going to sue me for stealing that ale), although it may get books thrown at you. The best fighter background that's out there... if you are strength-primary. (If not, this is instead Blue)

    Soldier - Classic. Good all around, but it lacks that bit of 'oomph' Sailor has. Dexterity-users have less to love here.

    Urchin - The feature is pretty bad, and I could only see it being useful in chases. The proficiencies and skills are kind of hit-and-miss, but this background fails to impress me in the end. For dexterity-users, it is better.


    Class Features

    Fighting Style:

    This will determine how you fight your first couple of levels. Most fighters gain one, Champions gain two, and ranger/paladin multiclassers can gain an additional style (or two!).

    Spoiler: Styles
    Show
    Archery - Obviously only ranged fighters should take this. If they do, it's a solid enough feature.
    Defense - Small bonus, but it'll be the first place people look when they get a second feature.
    Dueling - Brings your damage output to that of a two-handed weapon. Not bad.
    Great Weapon Fighting - The math on this is a little complex, but it basically means 2d6 weapons will deal about 1.5 more damage and 1d12 weapons 0.8 more damage. I think that's a little to low, but your opinion may differ.
    Protection - There isn't a lot of stuff you will be using your reaction for, except for a couple of EK spells and Battlemaster maneuvers. But this feature? It rocks. Everyone with a shield should take it.
    Two-weapon fighting - This feature is awesome when you are low level. At higher levels, the Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting bonuses will start to give a bigger bonus, so don't pick this in a high-level campaign, or don't TWF at all.


    Second Wind - Self-healing? Sure, why not. At high levels I doubt it will be useful often, though.

    Action Surge - YES. Thousand times yes. One free extra action per encounter? This is just crazy good and in my opinion justifies dipping fighter. Oh, and it improves to 2/encounter at level 17.

    Martial Archetype - See the subclass section.

    Extra Attack - Why did we become a fighter again? Oh, right; this. Twice as many attacks as the other classes get? Aw yeah.

    Indomitable - I don't like that you can only use this 1/day when you get it, and it doesn't get a lot better after that. Still; rerolling a saving throw is great.


    Subclasses

    You get three subclasses to pick from. I could go into a detailed explanation here, but to put it simply:

    -Champion (hits things really well)
    -Battlemaster (hits things in fancy ways)
    -Eldritch Knight (hits things with magic)

    Spoiler: Champion
    Show
    I don't like this subclass. Why? It only adds passive bonuses, doesn't give you interesting powers, and although the abilities are neat, I don't like a class that does the same every turn. If you don't think you'll get bored by it, go ahead and pick it.


    Spoiler: Battlemaster
    Show
    The Battlemaster has no higher-level abilities whosoever, so when you get your final maneuver at 15th level, it is from the same list you chose from at 3rd, and thus likely your 9th favorite pick. However, if you dip fighter for only three levels, I'd say this is your best choice for a subclass.


    Spoiler: Eldritch Knight
    Show
    Very, very slow casting, but you do gain more options in (and out of) combat. My favorite of the three sub-fighters, although I'm not sure about its power level compared to the others. However, this will likely be one of the few subclasses to grow in power with the release of each splatbook, simply because wizards'll probably get new spells with each of them.



    Feats

    Spoiler
    Show
    WIP
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-10-08 at 01:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Mechanical Comparison:

    A quick comparison about how the fighter compares to other classes and how various fighting roles (TWF, sword&board) do. Assume all fighters here are champion fighters, because I'm not going to calculate the (mechanically complex) Eldritch Knight or Battlemaster features. Also, the assumed characters here will be focusing on AC and damage. Feats won't be calculated in unless they are basically mandatory for a character focusing on a specific path (like Dual Wielder for TWF'ers).

    Spoiler: Fighting Roles
    Show
    Spoiler: Sword and Board
    Show
    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    Assuming a +3 strength/dexterity modifier:

    -Average damage: 9.7
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 5
    Show
    Assuming a +4 strength/dexterity modifier and splint mail by now:

    -Average damage: 21.9
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    No 20 strength yet. Plate mail should be possible to get, but I'm not assuming you have it yet:

    -Average damage: 32.85
    -AC: 20


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    Assuming both 20 strength/dexterity and plate by now:

    -Average damage: 52.9
    -AC: 21


    Spoiler: Great-weapon fighting
    Show
    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    +3 strength modifier + maul = hurt:

    -Average damage: 11.7
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
    Show
    As with sword and board, you ought to have splint and 18 strength by now:

    -Average damage: 26.33
    -AC: 17


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    Going to assume 18-19 strength here:

    -Average damage: 37.83
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    Plate and 20 strength is assumed here:

    -Average damage: 58.33
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: TWF
    Show
    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    16 strength/dexterity, no dual wielder, and scale/chain mail:

    -Average damage: 13.35
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
    Show
    I'm assuming you took dual wielder, rather than boosting your attack stat. Also, splint:

    -Average damage: 23.85
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    Your second fighting style'll likely be Defense. +4 strength/dexterity:

    -Average damage: 35.8
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    20 strength/dexterity... finally. Plate is a neat addition:

    -Average damage: 50.875
    -AC: 20


    Spoiler: Archery
    Show
    Note: The +2 to-hit from Archery is really difficult to calculate in. If anyone knows a way to do so, please tell me, but until then I'll just be putting it down in parentheses.

    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    +3 dexterity and scale mail:

    -Average damage: 7.7 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
    Show
    +4 dexterity and splint/half-plate now:

    -Average damage: 17.9 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 17


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    Your second fighting style should be Defense (what else is there?):

    -Average Damage: 26.85 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    Plate and 20 Dexterity. Also, I'm going to do something crazy and assume you took Crossbow Expert and are using a Heavy Crossbow now:

    -Average Damage: 45.3 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 19
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-10-02 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Very nice, Wish this site had an upvote because I like the guide but have nothing to say.

    edit: just remembered, battlemaster has some scaleing as the dice get bigger.
    Last edited by Rfkannen; 2014-09-21 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Not much love for DEX fighters/archers.

    Also, the protection style isn't really compatible for those who want the Sentinel feat.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Wouldn't it be more beneficial for people if the handbook was about all of the choices you can make, and rating them per archetype/role you want to play? Perhaps discussing certain breakpoints of the class with multiclassing? What I'm trying to say is; rating non-choices or from only one point of view is flawed; See Protection Fighting Style, it has no use whatsoever for those not using a shield or using their reaction for different things from feats or multiclassing. I don't see this guide being of much use to anyone in its current state; you don't even have a constructive argument as to why some of the choices are bad and simply state "because they are", assuming it's true in every case or even most cases. Discussing feats the Fighter can take would also help; helping people consider the options and weighing which they'd prefer after reading a more in-depth argument for or against them in certain situations.

    An analysis of how it compares to other classes in long days, short days, and those in-between for its possible role in the party would also be appreciated.

    But aside from all the negativity I do like it, although you could use less colors as the differences of good to bad are relatively small anyway.

    Just.. I'm sorry if this comes over badly, I really appreciate it, I just don't see a niche approach like this benefiting anyone.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakakiba View Post
    Not much love for DEX fighters/archers.
    This. The guide is a decent start, but Str or Dex is the first major question every fighter needs to ask, and you assume here that they've chosen Str. Dex has its own benefits, as every style but GWF can be used with it, and your initiative and saves vs magic will benefit as well.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    This. The guide is a decent start, but Str or Dex is the first major question every fighter needs to ask, and you assume here that they've chosen Str. Dex has its own benefits, as every style but GWF can be used with it, and your initiative and saves vs magic will benefit as well.
    And on this note, I think you underrated Wisdom, and overrated Dexterity for STR-based fighters - A negative Dexterity doesn't negatively impact heavy armor users, and they have the HP to tank most damage effects caused by a bad DEX save (Control effects can frequently be negated with a STR save/check instead). A strength-based fighter would want STR or CON, with either WIS or DEX being tertiary.

    Unfortunately, Variant Human with the Tough feat makes Hill Dwarves useless.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    I suggest mentioning that Charisma has a slight use if you're a Battle Master with Rally.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    I added this to my Meta Thread of Useful Things, if you don't mind. :)

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Rfkannen View Post
    Very nice, Wish this site had an upvote because I like the guide but have nothing to say.

    edit: just remembered, battlemaster has some scaleing as the dice get bigger.
    I'll add it to the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakakiba View Post
    Not much love for DEX fighters/archers.

    Also, the protection style isn't really compatible for those who want the Sentinel feat.
    The requests for DEX-options have made me reconsider my first ideas for this guide. I'll be adding DEX-advice eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin33 View Post
    Wouldn't it be more beneficial for people if the handbook was about all of the choices you can make, and rating them per archetype/role you want to play? Perhaps discussing certain breakpoints of the class with multiclassing? What I'm trying to say is; rating non-choices or from only one point of view is flawed; See Protection Fighting Style, it has no use whatsoever for those not using a shield or using their reaction for different things from feats or multiclassing. I don't see this guide being of much use to anyone in its current state; you don't even have a constructive argument as to why some of the choices are bad and simply state "because they are", assuming it's true in every case or even most cases. Discussing feats the Fighter can take would also help; helping people consider the options and weighing which they'd prefer after reading a more in-depth argument for or against them in certain situations.

    An analysis of how it compares to other classes in long days, short days, and those in-between for its possible role in the party would also be appreciated.

    But aside from all the negativity I do like it, although you could use less colors as the differences of good to bad are relatively small anyway.

    Just.. I'm sorry if this comes over badly, I really appreciate it, I just don't see a niche approach like this benefiting anyone.
    I am sorry to see you are disappointed with this guide. I am trying to make this guide as big and useful to as many people as possible (a reason I withdrew my decisions on DEX-fighters).

    On Protection, I am assuming that only people who use a shield would ever consider it. I am not going to put a 'this is RED for all non-shield/bow/sword-users' everywhere, because that would make this guide a horror to read and only repeat the obvious. I am sure you can understand this.

    On 'because they are' arguments, could you name a few? I'd like to have good arguments myself too, and if I haven't been clear on some I will edit them. However, if you only say: 'some arguments are bad', we're getting nowhere.

    Feats will be added eventually, as will multiclassing breakpoints. Remember, this guide is still a work in progress.

    And regarding the 'five colors', it's been the default rating system for guides since 3.5. Also, if I were to re-rate all I've rated so far with only three colors, I wouldn't be able to express the differences between certain things that well.

    Finally, on the subject of non-choices, they are rated because they may influence someone's opinion on when to dip/multiclass. For example, a 1st-level fighter who wants to multiclass to barbarian for a single level but doesn't know when to do this would really be helped by this guide, simply because it tells him that Action Surge is a great thing to have and he should probably wait with dipping barbarian until 3rd or 4th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    And on this note, I think you underrated Wisdom, and overrated Dexterity for STR-based fighters - A negative Dexterity doesn't negatively impact heavy armor users, and they have the HP to tank most damage effects caused by a bad DEX save (Control effects can frequently be negated with a STR save/check instead). A strength-based fighter would want STR or CON, with either WIS or DEX being tertiary.

    Unfortunately, Variant Human with the Tough feat makes Hill Dwarves useless.
    I'll lower the dexterity rating (been wondering about it for some time too), but wisdom is not going to be put higher (there are five monsters that force wisdom saving throws in the DM rules, for crying out loud).

    And I disagree that variant humans make Hill Dwarves useless. First of all, dwarves gain a higher constitution bonus, which is useful for things other than HP. It is the most common saving throw in the game and determines several fighter abilities. Furthermore, dwarves gain darkvision, resistance to the very common poisoned condition and poison damage, and Tool Proficiency, which may not seem like much, but with a background like Folk Hero or Guild Artistian becomes much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by MReav View Post
    I suggest mentioning that Charisma has a slight use if you're a Battle Master with Rally.
    Will do. Didn't really notice that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinath View Post
    I added this to my Meta Thread of Useful Things, if you don't mind. :)
    Of course I don't.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Now that i think of it... charisma's probably better for Fighters than Wisdom - I had forgotten Compulsions are a CHA save, not Wisdom save anymore. You'd rather fail a DEX save and take extra damage than start using your attacks against your party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I am sorry to see you are disappointed with this guide. I am trying to make this guide as big and useful to as many people as possible (a reason I withdrew my decisions on DEX-fighters).
    I have to apologize for being so rough with the work you put forth, which is by no means useless. I just want it to be better, encompassing more of what the fighter can do. I went to far with some of my criticism which I'll attempt to address as I go through the rest of the quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    On Protection, I am assuming that only people who use a shield would ever consider it. I am not going to put a 'this is RED for all non-shield/bow/sword-users' everywhere, because that would make this guide a horror to read and only repeat the obvious. I am sure you can understand this.
    Good point, and something I didn't really think about when I mentioned it. But a note saying that it's not as good when you have other things to use your reaction on is important regardless of whether someone uses a shield or not. (The shield bit admittedly being obvious)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    On 'because they are' arguments, could you name a few? I'd like to have good arguments myself too, and if I haven't been clear on some I will edit them. However, if you only say: 'some arguments are bad', we're getting nowhere.
    Ah yes, I'll scrounge some up for you. I assume you're going to include the dexterity based fighter and/or 14 dex fighter as well, right? I'm going to skip over things relating to dexterity;

    Admittedly a lot less than I thought, guess the brunt came from the dexterity neglect.

    Acolyte Background: Shelter and licking your wounds if you can find an appropriate temple. Assistance from a bunch of low level clerics? Useful although it depends on the area you're in.
    Criminal Background: The feature can be useful to get information from one point to another. Specifically when not everyone has access to magic mail.
    Entertainer Background: Seems to be quite interesting; people who like you tend to do things for you more easily.
    Hermit Background: You can't get the Herbalist Kit from another background. The feature is basically giving your character a special place in the campaign without any straight up benefits.
    Sage Background: Knowing where to get information for your quest directly can be very useful if your DM doesn't shower you with sparkly quest crumbs everywhere.
    Soldier Background: Having friends in the military is pretty useful considering they will trust you a lot sooner because of this. How often have you been chased around by soldiers by your DM?
    Urchin Background: No reason explaining why it is bad.

    Action Surge: It's 1/short rest, huge difference. ^^

    And of course the dexterity things, so overall it's not as bad as I thought it was, my apologies again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Feats will be added eventually, as will multiclassing breakpoints. Remember, this guide is still a work in progress.
    Great to hear, looking forward to it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    And regarding the 'five colors', it's been the default rating system for guides since 3.5. Also, if I were to re-rate all I've rated so far with only three colors, I wouldn't be able to express the differences between certain things that well.
    I understand that, but with the scaled down numbers in balance I'd think three colors would be enough. That's more of a personal preference of mine to keep things simple though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Finally, on the subject of non-choices, they are rated because they may influence someone's opinion on when to dip/multiclass. For example, a 1st-level fighter who wants to multiclass to barbarian for a single level but doesn't know when to do this would really be helped by this guide, simply because it tells him that Action Surge is a great thing to have and he should probably wait with dipping barbarian until 3rd or 4th level.
    Wouldn't the Multiclassing breakpoints part help with that more in-depth?

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    Looks nice!
    Something constructive, well... A section for discussion on feats would be appropriate I think. Fighters can get a lot of them, after all. I don't agree with you on a lot of skill assessments, but I'm not sure how much you'd like to debate that. If you want to hear it, just say the word.
    Oh, and Battle Master does in fact scale. You go from 4 to 6 superiority dice, and they grow from d8s to d12s.

    Edit: Oh, I see you changed the wording on BM since I read through.
    Last edited by hymer; 2014-09-22 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    I disagree with a lot of the statements as well.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    May I humbly suggest you use something other than Light Blue for the "Excellent" category? It's very difficult to read against a white background. Perhaps a dark green?

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    Now that i think of it... charisma's probably better for Fighters than Wisdom - I had forgotten Compulsions are a CHA save, not Wisdom save anymore. You'd rather fail a DEX save and take extra damage than start using your attacks against your party.
    Yeah, except the compulsions (charm person, dominate person, suggestion) actually force a wisdom saving throw. The only charisma saving throws I could find were a Ghost's possession, Banishment, Seeming, and Calm Emotions. This makes it one of (if not the) least common saving throws, and it doesn't justify boosting charisma (unless you have an evil DM).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin33 View Post
    I have to apologize for being so rough with the work you put forth, which is by no means useless. I just want it to be better, encompassing more of what the fighter can do. I went to far with some of my criticism which I'll attempt to address as I go through the rest of the quote.

    Good point, and something I didn't really think about when I mentioned it. But a note saying that it's not as good when you have other things to use your reaction on is important regardless of whether someone uses a shield or not. (The shield bit admittedly being obvious)

    Ah yes, I'll scrounge some up for you. I assume you're going to include the dexterity based fighter and/or 14 dex fighter as well, right? I'm going to skip over things relating to dexterity;

    Admittedly a lot less than I thought, guess the brunt came from the dexterity neglect.

    Acolyte Background: Shelter and licking your wounds if you can find an appropriate temple. Assistance from a bunch of low level clerics? Useful although it depends on the area you're in.
    Criminal Background: The feature can be useful to get information from one point to another. Specifically when not everyone has access to magic mail.
    Entertainer Background: Seems to be quite interesting; people who like you tend to do things for you more easily.
    Hermit Background: You can't get the Herbalist Kit from another background. The feature is basically giving your character a special place in the campaign without any straight up benefits.
    Sage Background: Knowing where to get information for your quest directly can be very useful if your DM doesn't shower you with sparkly quest crumbs everywhere.
    Soldier Background: Having friends in the military is pretty useful considering they will trust you a lot sooner because of this. How often have you been chased around by soldiers by your DM?
    Urchin Background: No reason explaining why it is bad.

    Action Surge: It's 1/short rest, huge difference. ^^

    And of course the dexterity things, so overall it's not as bad as I thought it was, my apologies again.

    Great to hear, looking forward to it!

    I understand that, but with the scaled down numbers in balance I'd think three colors would be enough. That's more of a personal preference of mine to keep things simple though.

    Wouldn't the Multiclassing breakpoints part help with that more in-depth?
    I'm not going into a deep analysis of the backgrounds, but if more people think like you, I'll consider changing the ratings.

    Action Surge indeed is 1/short rest. I just expect it to be possible to rest after each fight. At least that's what my 5e experience so far indicates.

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Looks nice!
    Something constructive, well... A section for discussion on feats would be appropriate I think. Fighters can get a lot of them, after all. I don't agree with you on a lot of skill assessments, but I'm not sure how much you'd like to debate that. If you want to hear it, just say the word.
    Oh, and Battle Master does in fact scale. You go from 4 to 6 superiority dice, and they grow from d8s to d12s.

    Edit: Oh, I see you changed the wording on BM since I read through.
    Feats will come soon. Man, I really need to enlarge the WIP part. And if you want to discuss the skills, go ahead! Constructive criticism is always welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    I disagree with a lot of the statements as well.
    Examples, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    May I humbly suggest you use something other than Light Blue for the "Excellent" category? It's very difficult to read against a white background. Perhaps a dark green?
    I kind of got accustomed to this system because of the 4e guides on the WOTC forum. I may change it tomorrow.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-09-23 at 03:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    My 2cp:

    Your rating system is a bit confusing to me. I would think that the highest rated things would be amazing and unique to the Fighter - the reasons you take levels of this class and not others. For example, I wouldn't put All Armor and Weapon proficiencies on or close to the same level as Action Surge, since you can get armor and weapon proficiencies lots of ways, and they provide relatively small but meaningful bonuses to AC and damage at low levels, but you can only get the uber Action Surge from Fighter 2. It's also hard for me to read and mentally parse a five scale rating, so I would condense it down to three. (But I'm also partially color blind, it hurts my eyes just to look at the Bold Light Blue rating, and I read guides for the BEST and WORST things a class has).

    The first Extra Attack at level 5 is something offered by literally half the classes in the game. Its the baseline, not a reason to play a Fighter. The second Extra Attack (2) gained at level 11 is noteworthy and important, because its sets the Fighter's baseline damage slightly higher then other classes at that level. (Though not really that much higher). The capstone third Extra Attack (3) at 20th level is not anywhere even remotely in the same ballpark as getting 8th/9th level spells gained at levels 15+, and is not even close to the capstones offered by other classes like the Ranger or Barbarian.

    The reroll from Indomitable is mathematically inferior to getting Advantage on a Save, and less useful then most other Saving Throw related abilities in the game. It's a weak, limited use ability.

    In my opinions all of the subclass abilities are different shades of meh and garbage.

    The most important and commonly used Ability Scores are Dexterity (Initiative, Common Saves, Stealth, Acrobatics, sometimes AC, sometimes to-hit), Constitution (hit points, semi-useful Saves, Concentration if you're a caster), and Wisdom (common vs many Save or Lose effects, Perception). So the Str/Con based Fighter is basically encouraged to leave Dex and Wis relatively low. Thus the Fighter starts out at numerically behind the Rogue (Dex/Con), Cleric (Con/Wis), Druid (Con/Wis), or Monk (Dex/Con/Wis) for a lot of common rolls, though is basically on par with most other classes.

    Obviously this can vary from game to game a lot, but at my table, we make Stealth rolls all the time, and they often decide the outcome of the first round of combat.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    I like the 5 rating system. A 3 rating system has no way to differentiate between Good and Great or between Weak and Trap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    The reroll from Indomitable is mathematically inferior to getting Advantage on a Save, and less useful then most other Saving Throw related abilities in the game. It's a weak, limited use ability.
    I will sort of contest this. It's superior to spending Inspiration on a saving throw, because you have a good idea whether to spend it or not after you've already rolled, instead of having to gamble that you might roll low on a die with Advantage and waste the ability.

    I also think you dismiss the fighter way too much, unless you have adequate table experience showing that it underperforms as badly as you assume it does.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-09-23 at 12:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Spoiler: Class Skills
    Show
    Acrobatics - Not so great as it is mostly redundant with Athletics. When you want this, ask yourself: What do I get from this I don't get from athletics?

    Animal Handling - Riding and taming animals. More a ranger's thing, although I can see it being useful.

    Athletics - Primary stat, and it's used for a lot of things, from grappling to swimming. Take it and love it.

    History - Not your job. If you are an Eldritch Knight, you can consider it, but leave it to the wizard if that's not the case.

    Insight - Telling if people are lying can be useful; but then again, you hopefully have someone wiser than you. A good pick in a social campaign.

    Intimidation - Together with insight your social skill set. Neat, but you won't likely have a lot of Charisma. This skill can have a lot of potential though, depending on what your DM allows it to do.

    Perception - Good skill, which keys off of a moderately useful ability. Everyone who plans on having a positive modifier in wisdom should take this.

    Survival - Again something I expect the party's ranger to do, but it actually has a lot of uses. Tracking, foraging, navigating... A pity you don't have a lot of wisdom.


    Spoiler: Non-Class Skills
    Show
    Arcana - An intelligence-based skill, but actually a pretty good one. About everything that isn't 'natural' can be identified with this. For Eldritch Knights, this one is pretty much mandatory.

    Deception - If I said this was something you should take, I'd be lying. (Do you get it? Do you get it?)

    Investigation - Seeing through illusions already make this interesting, the wide range of uses for it only increase the rating. For normal fighters it is still kind of meh, but an Eldritch Knights should seriously think about picking it up.

    Medicine - The only real use of this is to stabilize people, which can just be done with a Healer's Kit.

    Nature - Little reason to take it. Even the Eldritch Knights should pass this one up. Beasts and Plants have few special abilities, so even if you face them often this won't tell you a lot.

    Performance - Allows you to live wealthily between adventures, but has little use beyond that.

    Persuasion - This skill is actually not that bad, even when considering your terrible charisma.

    Religion - Same as Nature: Terrible for everyone but EK's, and even they don't want it very badly.

    Sleight of Hand - Not the best thing you could take, but not terrible either.

    Stealth - While a surprise attack is useful from time to time, you (and your armor) are just not made for it.
    Animal Handling I'd rate purple. Riding checks are rarely made, it seems mostly to be for when your mount gets killed. It's not that you won't use the skill, just that there's not much reason to get your proficiency bonus to it - because those rolls won't come up much at all, and when they do you can just get up from prone with half your movement. This may vary with the table, of course, depending on how training animals goes. But if you have a beast master ranger, you'll know that bringing animals with you sucks. If this skills allowed you to do it better than the archetype, there's something wrong.
    You rate Persuasion and Intimidation the same. But Persuasion has the advantage that it doesn't get you enemies when it fails (and even when it succeeds). If you have both, you'd start with Persuasion, and only try Intimidate if Persuasion fails and it's really important you get this person to do what you want. Granted, the more brutal fighter types may prefer Intimidation for fluff reasons.
    I'd rate Perception as the very best. These rolls and passive Perception come up all the time, and they deal with some important stuff, like ambushes and noticing invisible opponents.
    Medicine needs to get dunked down to red, unless you consider disease to be something worthwhile and something the fighter should handle. It does two things, diagnosing disease (leave that and the curing to the clerics and druids if it ever omes up) and stabilizing dying characters - which as you say you do with a 5gp healing kit without a check.
    I don't understand why you rate Sleight of Hand higher than Stealth. SoH is a skill you use to get into trouble and steal minor, unimportant stuff when you fail to hog the spotlight and waste everyone else's time, getting the city guard called on you (which is what you really wanted, admit it). You can do all that without proficiency. Stealth is a highly tactical skill, and while a high strength heavy armour fighter can't be expected to be very good at it, getting proficiency can help mitigate your shortcomings. Adventurers ofte try to get places unnoticed, and Stealth is the basic way to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    The capstone third Extra Attack (3) at 20th level is not anywhere even remotely in the same ballpark as getting 8th/9th level spells gained at levels 15+, and is not even close to the capstones offered by other classes like the Ranger or Barbarian.
    I mean, given that you can throw an expertise die on any of those attacks, or replace one with a grapple or shove action, it seems pretty handy. At level 20, you'll have a +5 bonus to strength, and with a friendly Wizard casting Enlarge, you can even grapple huge creatures and you get advantage to strength checks. Heck, with action surge, you can trounce around the battlefield and knock 8 enemies prone. Or, if you're a Battle Master, you can toss down all your expertise dice in a ridiculous nova.

    But comparing capstones sort of misses the forests for the trees anyway, imo. A level 20 character isn't his or her capstone, but all the abilities underneath it plus the level 20 bonus. That fighter capstone isn't all that impressive, but it's on top of 19 other levels of Fighter, and a lot of those were awfully good levels.

    However, for multiclassing purposes, it's important to weigh the opportunity cost of giving up those last few levels, and a Fighter can definitely afford a 3-level dip, no problem. A Fighter 17/Rogue Assassin 3 seems like a pretty strong combo, especially for a ranged Battle Master.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Honestly, I don't think a fighter handbook can be complete without a discussion of feats. Not even in 5e.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partysan View Post
    Honestly, I don't think a fighter handbook can be complete without a discussion of feats. Not even in 5e.
    This. Guide. Is. WIP. How many times to I have to repeat that? Sorry for this post's tone, but I am getting very annoyed with all those 'where are dem feats' questions.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    This. Guide. Is. WIP. How many times to I have to repeat that? Sorry for this post's tone, but I am getting very annoyed with all those 'where are dem feats' questions.
    Just put in something like this:

    Spoiler: Feats
    Show
    Here I'll discuss feats.


    We can't assume you've thought of it, but just haven't put it in yet, or we couldn't say anything constructive to you until you're done.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Just put in something like this:

    Spoiler: Feats
    Show
    Here I'll discuss feats.


    We can't assume you've thought of it, but just haven't put it in yet, or we couldn't say anything constructive to you until you're done.
    Fair enough. Added it.
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    As others have stated not a whole lot of love for Dex based fighters. Honestly they their major stat improves attack and damage with finesse (unless I read it wrong), bonus to AC (AC is fairly slowly progressing), initiative, several skills, and a very common save. Strength gives you attack and damage, heavy armor, and athletics. Also something I recommend is mentioning a 1 level dip in Rouge for Dex fighters. It allows double prof for probably acrobatics/stealth and perception and +1d6 damage on a 'flank'. Also, the way Dueling is written it gives +2 damage to sword and boarders. It seems your view of fighter is a big Mountain Dwarf with a maul or sword and board in full plate. However, I have found the 5e version is very supportive for other kinds of fighters except in archetypes. Overall though, a very nice guide to fighter. As for feats it is mostly the feat for your style maybe another and then pumping your stats.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Honestly the only thing I think a finesse fighter really misses is ta feat that gives damage similar to the great weapon master feat. Other than that it really isn't missing anything and in a featless game it is very good indeed.

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Protection - There isn't a lot of stuff you will be using your reaction for, except for a couple of EK spells and Battlemaster maneuvers. But this feature? It rocks. Everyone with a shield should take it.
    I disagree. Sentinel is a big thing you'll want your reaction for.

    Great Weapon Fighting - The math on this is a little complex, but it basically means 2d6 weapons will deal about 1.5 more damage and 1d12 weapons 0.8 more damage. I think that's a little to low, but your opinion may differ.
    I calculated it. It's about a 15% overall damage boost. It's closer to 10% if you're using Great Weapon Master's +10 damage a lot. Keep in mind that Great Weapon Master also applies to magical damage buffs like Crusader's Mantle, Hex, and Hunter's Mark.

    I don't like this subclass. Why? It only adds passive bonuses, doesn't give you interesting powers, and although the abilities are neat, I don't like a class that does the same every turn. If you don't think you'll get bored by it, go ahead and pick it.
    Yes the Champion is simple, but I'm pretty sure that's intentional. They wanted a subclass for people who just want something simple. That said, this class has a lot of combo potential. For example, getting Advantage on an attack not only improves your accuracy, it doubles your crit chance. With the Champion, and an easy source of Advantage, you can get very very reliable crit chances, which can make for great multi-class combos.

    Feats won't be calculated in unless they are basically mandatory for a character focusing on a specific path (like Dual Wielder for TWF'ers).
    This is a gross oversight. Additional Feats is a Fighter class feature. You can't ignore them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I'll lower the dexterity rating (been wondering about it for some time too), but wisdom is not going to be put higher (there are five monsters that force wisdom saving throws in the DM rules, for crying out loud).
    Wisdom saves are incredibly dangerous. Almost all of them will immediately take you out of the fight. You've grossly underestimated them. See this post for an overview of saving throws:

    http://community.wizards.com/comment...mment-51344561

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    The second Extra Attack (2) gained at level 11 is noteworthy and important, because its sets the Fighter's baseline damage slightly higher then other classes at that level. (Though not really that much higher).
    The thing you're missing is that this extra attack makes the fighter scale better with buffs and magic weapons. They have the most synergy with buff spells, making them the best buff target. They also scale very very well with Hex or Hunter's Mark if you grab one of those spells from the Magic Initiate feat or multiclassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    In my opinions all of the subclass abilities are different shades of meh and garbage.
    I agree that Battlemasters could probably do with some high-level maneuvers, but Eldritch Knights have some great spells. Shield, Haste, Find Familiar, Fireball, Burning Hands, Blur. Yes their spell progression is 1/3rd that of other casters, but that doesn't make their spellcasting 1/3rd as effective. The way 5e spellcasting works, 6th level through 9th level spells can only be cast once per day anyway. Pure spellcasters are getting less out of those later levels, and most of your spells are coming from those lower level spell slots. That means Eldritch Knights still get a solid chunk of spells per day, along with top-tier weapon damage, and action surge. Most of the Eldritch Knight class features are just gravy, with the spellcasting being the main draw of the archetype, and all of that on TOP of top-tier weapon damage.

    You've also forgotten the fact that Fighters get two extra feats. That's one of their big advantages.
    Last edited by Strill; 2014-10-06 at 12:33 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    I agree that Battlemasters could probably do with some high-level maneuvers, but Eldritch Knights have some great spells. Shield, Haste, Find Familiar, Fireball, Burning Hands, Blur. Yes their spell progression is 1/3rd that of other casters, but that doesn't make their spellcasting 1/3rd as effective. The way 5e spellcasting works, 6th level through 9th level spells can only be cast once per day anyway. Pure spellcasters are getting less out of those later levels, and most of your spells are coming from those lower level spell slots. That means Eldritch Knights still get a solid chunk of spells per day, along with top-tier weapon damage, and action surge. Most of the Eldritch Knight class features are just gravy, with the spellcasting being the main draw of the archetype, and all of that on TOP of top-tier weapon damage.
    One really intriguing Eldritch Knight combination: DX (longbow) + Sharpshooter + Mobile + Expeditious Retreat. Now you get 80' of free movement per turn to kite to your heart's content while getting 2-4 attacks doing 16-23 HP of damage per attack, and all it costs you is a single first level spell slot (cast as a Bonus action no less) and 1 gp per 20 arrows. For extra fun, add Mage Slayer, since the concentration-breaking isn't flagged as melee-only. For that matter, with this build you can even do melee kiting vs. the common case of enemies with 30' move: run 40' toward enemy, attack him four times, retreat 40' (no Opportunity Attack due to Mobile), repeat as needed.

    The only real downside to Eldritch Knight is that most of the spells they want most are not abjuration/evocation, so there's a really tight squeeze on their few anyschool spells. Lots of opportunity cost.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2014-10-06 at 03:38 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    I agree that Battlemasters could probably do with some high-level maneuvers, but Eldritch Knights have some great spells. Shield, Haste, Find Familiar, Fireball, Burning Hands, Blur. Yes their spell progression is 1/3rd that of other casters, but that doesn't make their spellcasting 1/3rd as effective. The way 5e spellcasting works, 6th level through 9th level spells can only be cast once per day anyway. Pure spellcasters are getting less out of those later levels, and most of your spells are coming from those lower level spell slots. That means Eldritch Knights still get a solid chunk of spells per day, along with top-tier weapon damage, and action surge. Most of the Eldritch Knight class features are just gravy, with the spellcasting being the main draw of the archetype, and all of that on TOP of top-tier weapon damage.
    I agree with you, but I think he was referring to the actual features of eldritch knight, which are garbage. The spells are good, and make doing so worth it, but the class features are absolute rubbish.

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