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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    You've also forgotten the fact that Fighters get two extra feats. That's one of their big advantages.

    Ok... stupid question. Where is this listed? I've gone over both the Fighter class and Feats and I can't find any mention of this.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Izha View Post
    Ok... stupid question. Where is this listed? I've gone over both the Fighter class and Feats and I can't find any mention of this.
    You now only get feats if you trade an ability progression in for one. Fighters are listed as gaining more ability boosts than any other class, therefore they also have the potential for more feats.
    Last edited by Daishain; 2014-10-06 at 08:46 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    Eldritch Knights have some great spells. Shield, Haste, Find Familiar, Fireball, Burning Hands, Blur. Yes their spell progression is 1/3rd that of other casters, but that doesn't make their spellcasting 1/3rd as effective. The way 5e spellcasting works, 6th level through 9th level spells can only be cast once per day anyway. Pure spellcasters are getting less out of those later levels, and most of your spells are coming from those lower level spell slots. That means Eldritch Knights still get a solid chunk of spells per day, along with top-tier weapon damage, and action surge. Most of the Eldritch Knight class features are just gravy, with the spellcasting being the main draw of the archetype, and all of that on TOP of top-tier weapon damage.

    You've also forgotten the fact that Fighters get two extra feats. That's one of their big advantages.
    In my opinion, Eldritch Knight Fighter is probably one of the worst designed classes in the game.

    First, having two extra feats is not a big advantage. An Ability Score increase or Feat is exactly as useful and powerful at level 1 when a variant human can get it as it is at levels 16 and 19. The Fighter is getting Feats in place of higher level class abilities that are superior to Feats.

    Second, I admit that the Eldritch Knight gets some great spells. But it gets fewer of them then literally every other spellcaster in the book (other then the Arcane Trickster, which also sucks). And only having one or two 6th level or higher spells is indeed a big deal, because each one of them is basically an encounter winning effect.

    Put another way, what benefit does the Eldritch Knight Fighter 20 get that a Fighter 2/Full Caster 18 doesn't get?

    Extra Attacks? Sorry, but just using a Cantrip and/or spell or spell buffed attacks scales just as well or better for most other classes. And unfortunately the Eldritch Knight can only make 1 attack + Cantrip per round, or 2+ attacks, but never both. A second Action Surge at 17th level is indeed useful. But it can only be used once per Short Rest, and is not as useful as a Sorcerer's Metamagic (which is essentially a spell only Action Surge that can be used multiple times per day) or various Conjured creatures (which multiply your action economy).

    Unfortunately, I think that the Fighter just falls behind starting at level 6ish+, and none of its subclasses options can fix it.

  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Put another way, what benefit does the Eldritch Knight Fighter 20 get that a Fighter 2/Full Caster 18 doesn't get?

    Extra Attacks? Sorry, but just using a Cantrip and/or spell or spell buffed attacks scales just as well or better for most other classes. And unfortunately the Eldritch Knight can only make 1 attack + Cantrip per round, or 2+ attacks, but never both. A second Action Surge at 17th level is indeed useful. But it can only be used once per Short Rest, and is not as useful as a Sorcerer's Metamagic (which is essentially a spell only Action Surge that can be used multiple times per day) or various Conjured creatures (which multiply your action economy).

    Unfortunately, I think that the Fighter just falls behind starting at level 6ish+, and none of its subclasses options can fix it.
    An Eldritch Knight Fighter 20 gets 8 attacks per round (with Action Surge) for up to 160 HP of damage, Indomitable, and superb mobility. A Fighter 2/Full Caster 18 gets... 27-ish HP of damage and full spell slots. They're really not the same niche at all. The Eldritch Knight is great at taking down squishy stuff with great Wisdom saves, like enemy archmages. He isn't limited by Concentration. The full caster is generally great at incapacitating one or a handful of closely-clustered enemies and then holding them there until someone gets around to killing them. The quicker the Eldritch Knight can kill them, the better the odds are that they'll stay incapacitated the whole time. These are complementary roles.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Put another way, what benefit does the Eldritch Knight Fighter 20 get that a Fighter 2/Full Caster 18 doesn't get?
    Actual hit dice in the edition where HP is one of the few things that fully scales. A solid way of landing disadvantage on a bunch of monsters before you hit them with a saving throw. A free teleport that gets attached to your Action Surge. The freedom to not have Int 13+. The ability to always be armed as long as you're not unconscious. A bonus feat/ability score increase. And the ability to not be behind the rest of the party by 2 levels, in all likelihood causing a weird power differential in those early levels.

    Really, it's just the difference between wanting to be a Fighter with a splash of Wizard or wanting to be a Wizard with a splash of Fighter. It also provides an easy gish option in campaigns where the DM doesn't allow multiclassing.

    As for Fighters falling behind, I still don't see it, but maybe I'm just dense! For the EK, certainly, it seems like you can pretty easily build a ridiculous abjuring tank. Champion is simple, but probably puts out some of the best 1v1 damage in the game, and Battle Master, with just a modicum of creativity, can pump out a ridiculous amount of control over the battlefield. I feel pretty good about saying that Fighters can hold their own in 5e.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    A bonus feat/ability score increase.
    Make that three bonus feats.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Gnomes2169's Avatar

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Make that three bonus feats.
    Two bonus feats. Fighters get 7, rogues get 6, everyone else gets 5.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Extra Attacks? Sorry, but just using a Cantrip and/or spell or spell buffed attacks scales just as well or better for most other classes.
    Like hell they do. Only Warlocks can claim that, and their spellcasting is highly restricted to compensate. Why don't you show us the calculations to prove that.

    And unfortunately the Eldritch Knight can only make 1 attack + Cantrip per round, or 2+ attacks, but never both. A second Action Surge at 17th level is indeed useful. But it can only be used once per Short Rest, and is not as useful as a Sorcerer's Metamagic (which is essentially a spell only Action Surge that can be used multiple times per day) or various Conjured creatures (which multiply your action economy).
    Probably because replacing just one attack with a cantrip would be overpowered. A Fighter's attack action usually does at least twice as much total damage as a caster's cantrip. You're basically asking that the Eldritch Knight get +50% damage.

    The strength of the Eldritch Knight is when you pull out spells like Magic Weapon or Haste on top of your allies' buff spells, and then finish it with an Action Surge. Like I said before, the Fighter is the best buff target.

    Put another way, what benefit does the Eldritch Knight Fighter 20 get that a Fighter 2/Full Caster 18 doesn't get?
    A lot more at-will damage, is the most synergistic buff target in the game, and more health and health recovery.

    Unfortunately, I think that the Fighter just falls behind starting at level 6ish+, and none of its subclasses options can fix it.
    How?

    Second, I admit that the Eldritch Knight gets some great spells. But it gets fewer of them then literally every other spellcaster in the book (other then the Arcane Trickster, which also sucks). And only having one or two 6th level or higher spells is indeed a big deal, because each one of them is basically an encounter winning effect.
    Of course they have few spells. They have top-tier at-will damage, and bonus feats to do even better melee damage. I don't think you've actually calculated it out if you think other classes' cantrips can compare to a Fighter's damage. (Also the Arcane Trickster is fine too)
    Last edited by Strill; 2014-10-06 at 04:23 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39

    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomes2169 View Post
    Two bonus feats. Fighters get 7, rogues get 6, everyone else gets 5.
    But a Fighter 2/Wizard 18 gets only 4, since the fifth feat comes at wizard level 19, which he never gets to. (I'm AFB so I could be misremembering though.)

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    But a Fighter 2/Wizard 18 gets only 4, since the fifth feat comes at wizard level 19, which he never gets to. (I'm AFB so I could be misremembering though.)
    Ahhhh, talking about multiclassing... Yeah, you're right on that mark. If you went fighter (eldrich knight) 4/ Wizard (any) 16, you would get 5 feats and a level 9 slot (though you would not get level 9 spells... Which I've had such a hard time explaining to 3.5 veterans. >_>) You would also lose out on one of your level 6 slots, and would have fewer spells prepared with this method, but a few more cantrips.

    Over all not the most optimal build, but it gives you a bit more survivability and gets you the "base" number of feats.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Know Your Enemy: A fighter's handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Mechanical Comparison:

    A quick comparison about how the fighter compares to other classes and how various fighting roles (TWF, sword&board) do. Assume all fighters here are champion fighters, because I'm not going to calculate the (mechanically complex) Eldritch Knight or Battlemaster features. Also, the assumed characters here will be focusing on AC and damage. Feats won't be calculated in unless they are basically mandatory for a character focusing on a specific path (like Dual Wielder for TWF'ers).

    Spoiler: Fighting Roles
    Show
    Spoiler: Sword and Board
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    Spoiler: Level 1
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    Assuming a +3 strength/dexterity modifier:

    -Average damage: 9.7
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 5
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    Assuming a +4 strength/dexterity modifier and splint mail by now:

    -Average damage: 21.9
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: Level 11
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    No 20 strength yet. Plate mail should be possible to get, but I'm not assuming you have it yet:

    -Average damage: 32.85
    -AC: 20


    Spoiler: Level 20
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    Assuming both 20 strength/dexterity and plate by now:

    -Average damage: 52.9
    -AC: 21


    Spoiler: Great-weapon fighting
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    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    +3 strength modifier + maul = hurt:

    -Average damage: 11.7
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
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    As with sword and board, you ought to have splint and 18 strength by now:

    -Average damage: 26.33
    -AC: 17


    Spoiler: Level 11
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    Going to assume 18-19 strength here:

    -Average damage: 37.83
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 20
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    Plate and 20 strength is assumed here:

    -Average damage: 58.33
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: TWF
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    Spoiler: Level 1
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    16 strength/dexterity, no dual wielder, and scale/chain mail:

    -Average damage: 13.35
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
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    I'm assuming you took dual wielder, rather than boosting your attack stat. Also, splint:

    -Average damage: 23.85
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    Your second fighting style'll likely be Defense. +4 strength/dexterity:

    -Average damage: 35.8
    -AC: 19


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    20 strength/dexterity... finally. Plate is a neat addition:

    -Average damage: 50.875
    -AC: 20


    Spoiler: Archery
    Show
    Note: The +2 to-hit from Archery is really difficult to calculate in. If anyone knows a way to do so, please tell me, but until then I'll just be putting it down in parentheses.

    Spoiler: Level 1
    Show
    +3 dexterity and scale mail:

    -Average damage: 7.7 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 16


    Spoiler: Level 5
    Show
    +4 dexterity and splint/half-plate now:

    -Average damage: 17.9 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 17


    Spoiler: Level 11
    Show
    Your second fighting style should be Defense (what else is there?):

    -Average Damage: 26.85 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 18


    Spoiler: Level 20
    Show
    Plate and 20 Dexterity. Also, I'm going to do something crazy and assume you took Crossbow Expert and are using a Heavy Crossbow now:

    -Average Damage: 45.3 (+2 bonus to-hit)
    -AC: 19

    To help out, these expectancies may assume all hits. to figure out expected damage from an attack it should be (accuracy * (average weapon damage)) = expected Damage per round.

    In these type's of calculations your select a target AC then add all your proficiencies including the +2 from Bows and your accuracy is the number you need to hit /20.

    So if I attack a monster withan AC 18 at level at level 15 and a longbow(proficiency bonus + 5, dex +4) than my expected dpr should be
    (9/20) * (5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 4 + 4 + 4) = 9/20 * 28.5 or roughly 12.8 Damage per round.
    9/20 is my accuracy to hit
    28.5 is the damage on average i would do with 100% accuracy
    12.8 is the average i would do per round with my bonuses

    Add in the +2 for bow specialization then
    (11/20 * (5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 4 +4 + 4) = 11/20 * 28.5 = 15.6 Damage per round

    Since accuracy is multiplied by damage to get expected damage we can conclude that the increase in accuracy is equal to the increase of damage. This is simple law of multiplication. So a +2 for all intents and purposes should be calculated as a 10% increase in DPR for the most part. Since you can now eliminate 2 rolls on the 1d20 that could have missed.

    The one case where this does not apply is if we currently posses enough accuracy to hit the creature 100% of the time, that is our bonus >= target AC. (Of course we need to consider that there is always the nature 1 scenario.) As such, this means that any precision bonus we gain will increase our DPR by 0. Given the nature of AC in DND 5e, this should be really hard to do.
    Last edited by Purespoo; 2016-08-16 at 06:59 PM.

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