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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Honestly Shinken, I think you missed the point of what Gareth was saying. In pretty much any standard campaign setting for D&D, there's nothing that would need to be changed to allow for martial initiators. You can drop them in and there doesn't need to be any sort of adjustment done to the setting to compensate. This is unlike Psionics, which is a very specific kind of power that not all types of settings really have room for.
    That's exactly what I disagree with - and so did Wizards of the Coast.
    If martial arts give you supernatural powers, like they do in Path of War, then martial arts are a very specific kind of power that not all types of settings really have room for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    People not liking the flavor has nothing to do with the flavor being incompatible with any given setting.
    I don't get it. It's okay to not have room for psionics in a setting (that is, people that teleport because they are thinking very hard that they can), but it's not okay if that same hypothetical setting doesn't have room for supernatural martial arts (that is, people that teleport because they did a lot of kata)? I'm not seeing how one is justifiable and the other is dismissed as 'not liking the flavor'.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    I can sort of agree with Nihil, but a kung fu bear or some sort of hexblade that mixes stuff like cursed razor, steel serpent and.. uh, hexes... both just seem super duper cool, too much so to simply brush aside.

    Kungfudolon sounds great too: Trade away your summon monster SLAs for martial maneuvers and other goodies. Terrible trade mechanically but could be good fun despite that.

    Honestly not sure what the previously mentioned initiator Alchemist would look like though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Here is a blade scholar, exactly as the concept I was thinking was.
    I like the concept here, but I feel like it'd be better served as its own class and I feel like as described it steps on the toes of warders and harbingers a bit (not necessarily in terms of mechanics, but thematically: Two int based initiators but this is the REAL smart one. Feels a bit weird).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinken View Post
    That's exactly what I disagree with - and so did Wizards of the Coast.
    "No room for anime style combant"

    *glances at basically every wizard in the fiction* uh huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinken View Post
    I'm not seeing how one is justifiable and the other is dismissed as 'not liking the flavor'.
    Personally, declaring "This can't possibly fit in my setting!" For something as potentially unobtrusive as either of these subsytems feels more like a lack of effort or an excuse. But that's just me. I can think of a few extremely niche scenarios in which it might be justifiable, but only then just barely.
    Last edited by squiggit; 2014-09-23 at 09:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Supernatural is still just magical. Not spell like, but it still works through whatever version of the weave exists in the setting. If the setting has room for gishes, supernatural martial artists take up the exact same space. Tome of Battle was as much a setting book as anything else, while Path of War has absolutely no lore or anything of the sort in it except for the traditions. It's comparing apples to oranges.


    Psionics is explicitly and specifically something entirely different. It can be made to be "just more magic", but that's not the default and would need changes.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    I can sort of agree with Nihil, but a kung fu bear or some sort of hexblade that mixes stuff like cursed razor, steel serpent and.. uh, hexes... both just seem super duper cool, too much so to simply brush aside.

    Kungfudolon sounds great too: Trade away your summon monster SLAs for martial maneuvers and other goodies. Terrible trade mechanically but could be good fun despite that.

    Honestly not sure what the previously mentioned initiator Alchemist would look like though.



    I like the concept here, but I feel like it'd be better served as its own class and I feel like as described it steps on the toes of warders and harbingers a bit (not necessarily in terms of mechanics, but thematically: Two int based initiators but this is the REAL smart one. Feels a bit weird).
    I love the idea of kung fu bears and I would love to see a Ranger or Hunter archetype that got them. And maybe give Hexes to Harbinger's as an archetype?

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    I love the idea of kung fu bears and I would love to see a Ranger or Hunter archetype that got them.
    Well, I was looking at wildshape when I was talking about that specifically, but that could work too.

    And maybe give Hexes to Harbinger's as an archetype?
    I'd definitely be down for that, seeing how I was basically describing a harbinger with hexes anyways.

    In fact, I really want that now.


    For some reason though whenever someone mentions full casters and maneuvers, the idea of a "Kung Fu Bloodline" pops into my head. Probably because it's so ridiculous sounding... but strangely more and more cool the more I think about it.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    I like the concept here, but I feel like it'd be better served as its own class and I feel like as described it steps on the toes of warders and harbingers a bit (not necessarily in terms of mechanics, but thematically: Two int based initiators but this is the REAL smart one. Feels a bit weird).
    It also steps conceptually on the toes of the actual Tactician class. *shrug* My main concern is with character archetypes, not with class thematics. Don't take any of my "I hope this exists at some point" as "I demand this be published".

    If it comes about as an archetype of some other study-based class, or somewhere down the line ends up being its own thing or whatever, cool. Putting it as an archetype of a smart class is just the easiest way of doing it - and letting the wizard prepare maneuvers like spells is the thing I'm most likely to see without making my own class. Of course, "most likely" is relative. I know the chances are one in about seven million.
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2014-09-23 at 10:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Psionics is explicitly and specifically something entirely different. It can be made to be "just more magic", but that's not the default and would need changes.
    No, it doesn't. Psionics is already explicitly a magic subsystem. It is dispelled by Dispel Magic, the language is very close to other magic sources - it's just a magic subsystem that is fluffed as being channeled through the user. Seriously, what do you need to change? The fact that it uses Bronze Age Greek words for its spells?
    If I am cutting subsystems "because flavor", as a rule, the first thing to hit the cutting room floor is some or all of the PHB casters and classes.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    You just listed off a whole bunch of mechanical and balance concepts, and one flavor concept that isn't even correct.

    Sorcery is channeled through - psionics is expelled from. The power is all the manifester's in psionics. Transparency is in place for game balance, not flavor, and the wording is typically the similar because the mechanics are similar and there's a certain level of word economy that can be assumed.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    No, it doesn't. Psionics is already explicitly a magic subsystem. It is dispelled by Dispel Magic, the language is very close to other magic sources - it's just a magic subsystem that is fluffed as being channeled through the user. Seriously, what do you need to change? The fact that it uses Bronze Age Greek words for its spells?
    If I am cutting subsystems "because flavor", as a rule, the first thing to hit the cutting room floor is some or all of the PHB casters and classes.
    Yes, that's pretty much it. Not putting PoW or psionics in a game is simply a matter of not wanting to. The psionics material goes out of its way to explain how it fits with the established game world. I wish PoW (and Akashic Mysteries) did the same, that's all.
    Last edited by Shinken; 2014-09-23 at 11:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    I think that kind of stuff got "delayed" to PoW 2, since the core of the first book was to introduce the mechanics, though I think the tradition are a good way to start world building.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    I think that kind of stuff got "delayed" to PoW 2, since the core of the first book was to introduce the mechanics, though I think the tradition are a good way to start world building.
    Yeah, I thought so too, but that last post from Gareth kind of states the opposite (that is, that it's not gonna be in any book period). Hopefully it's just a misunderstanding.
    Last edited by Shinken; 2014-09-23 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Transparency is in place for game balance, not flavor
    That seems like a big assertion. Though either way, transparency has a significant impact on the flavor of psionics because it makes it, by default, simply a variation on traditional magic rather than something entirely new (to the point where it's the least different subsystem around realistically).

    Really the only thing that makes a psion stand out from traditional magic is the naming conventions. Reskin powers into spells and PP into MP and suddenly the Psion is more wizardly than the actual wizard.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    I'm waaaaaay excited for this :) You've got my pledge. I think I actually enjoy DSP over Paizo.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Sorcery is channeled through - psionics is expelled from. The power is all the manifester's in psionics.
    So you're looking at a choice of synonym in the fluff and using it to justify that the two systems are irreconcilably different? That's laughable. And even if you did hold to it, it still would not stop it from being a form of magical expression. "I expel the natural magic that I build up within myself to cast spells!" is a completely understandable and legitimate form of magic.
    And yes I listed off some mechanical and balance concepts that demonstrate that psionics behave as magic to support the fact that psionics is a form of magic. It's called 'evidence'. You use it to back up the correctness of your claims. All you have stated is an assertion that the system cannot be considered to be a form of magic, based on a choice of synonym that you dislike.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    You seem to think we're talking about something other than the fluff, the whole fluff, and nothing but the fluff - so help me fluffy.

    Not all settings have room for a kind of magic that's not blood or training, but Path of War is literally just martial training made more granular. There's no need for a flavor change for Path of War to work wherever you set it, but your argument is that the fact you can treat psionics as something it isn't is a good argument about that fact, when that's the point I'm making here.


    You can do that with psionics. You don't have to do that with Path of War.
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2014-09-23 at 11:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    You seem to think we're talking about something other than the fluff, the whole fluff, and nothing but the fluff - so help me fluffy.

    Not all settings have room for a kind of magic that's not blood or training, but Path of War is literally just martial training made more granular. There's no need for a flavor change for Path of War to work wherever you set it, but your argument is that the fact you can treat psionics as something it isn't is a good argument about that fact, when that's the point I'm making here.


    You can do that with psionics. You don't have to do that with Path of War.
    Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument is that "swinging a sword well enough allows you teleport, heal and shee through walls" has less consequences to a setting than "magic comes from within"?

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    It's not "swinging a sword well enough allows you teleport, heal and see through walls", it's "I'm trained in a school of martial thought that has taught me a magical technique that allows me to do these while swinging a sword".
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2014-09-24 at 12:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    I really want an initiating investigator that trades alchemy for maneuvers and somehow incorporates inspiration and/or studied combat into is maneuver shenanigans.

    Spoiler: pisonic stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    You can do that with psionics. You don't have to do that with Path of War.
    I just don't see it. It's literally just magic without material or somatic components, that's it. It has some fancy names and crystals taped up to it, but this earthshattering, setting breaking distinction you keep referring to simply doesn't exist as far as I can tell... because again, it's literally just magic.

    Frankly, I don't see it for blade magic either, but between the two I'd say maneuvers and the concept of special, unique martial attacks are a greater deviation from the norm than psionics, especially when you start looking at the supernatural ones.

    I'll simply restate that insisting that either "can't work in the setting" seems more like a smokescreen for some other issue than anything else, because neither are particularly disruptive unless you go out of your way to make them so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    It's not "swinging a sword well enough allows you teleport, heal and see through walls", it's "I'm trained in a school of martial thought that has taught me a magical technique that allows me to do these while swinging a sword".
    Ok, but why is that perfectly fine but "I'm trained in a school of magic that doesn't require gestures or components" so much less acceptable?

    This probably needs its own thread though, it's getting offtopic.
    Last edited by squiggit; 2014-09-24 at 12:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    It's not "swinging a sword well enough allows you teleport, heal and see through walls", it's "I'm trained in a school of martial thought that has taught me a magical technique that allows me to do these while swinging a sword".
    That is the exact same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    I really want an initiating investigator that trades alchemy for maneuvers and somehow incorporates inspiration and/or studied combat into is maneuver shenanigans.
    Agreed! That could be really cool. Which disciplines, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    Ok, but why is that perfectly fine but "I'm trained in a school of magic that doesn't require gestures or components" so much less acceptable?

    This probably needs its own thread though, it's getting offtopic.
    Agreed and agreed.
    Last edited by Shinken; 2014-09-24 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    No, it's not. One is saying that swinging the sword is what caused it, the other is not. Tome of Battle may have made the assumption that it was "blade magic", but that same assumption isn't in place with Path of War.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Evasion on top of charisma to reflex seem too potent as part of a warlord archetype?
    It does trade out the Force of Personality ability, and will saves do often have worse effects on a failed save than reflex saves.
    Last edited by Togath; 2014-09-24 at 12:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    No, it's not. One is saying that swinging the sword is what caused it, the other is not. Tome of Battle may have made the assumption that it was "blade magic", but that same assumption isn't in place with Path of War.
    Heck, even in Tome of Battle nothing actually prevents you from using things that aren't blades—it's just the name.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    Ok, but why is that perfectly fine but "I'm trained in a school of magic that doesn't require gestures or components" so much less acceptable?

    This probably needs its own thread though, it's getting offtopic.
    I disagree that it's off topic - the "psionics" stuff isn't the point of this, and we're in direct discussion of something that the developer and OP asked.

    That said, please stop making strawman arguments against me. Reflavoring psionics isn't unacceptable. That's not the point of what I'm saying in either case; what I'm saying is that reflavoring Path of War isn't necessary like it is with psionics in some cases. Someone saying "well I'm not using psionics, I'm using a type of magic that doesn't need command words or somatic components" is reflavoring psionics, but the same statement doesn't need to be made about Path of War.

    Remember, this is the point of discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Path of War was meant in support of martial characters, not magical ones that can stand on their own; unlike psionics, it is not a major flavor change to the expectations of a campaign setting which requires accommodation.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    No, it's not. One is saying that swinging the sword is what caused it, the other is not. Tome of Battle may have made the assumption that it was "blade magic", but that same assumption isn't in place with Path of War.
    The difference is irrelevant to the point I am making, which you have yet to address.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinken View Post
    The difference is irrelevant to the point I am making, which you have yet to address.
    Your point is a misrepresentation (possibly a misinterpretation) of their argument which they just pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinken
    Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
    You were wrong, they corrected you, and you responded by saying that you were not wrong about what they said.
    Last edited by Arkhaic; 2014-09-24 at 12:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbacz
    For some people, at-will non-mundane martial abilities = wuxia anime = MMOs = 4E = Hitler = dead kittens.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    I'm sorry, if there was another point you were making I missed it. Could you rephrase and/or restate it?
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    So, Shinken. A question for you. Is your argument that the Magus has a greater impact on the setting than the inclusion of Psionics?

    Is dancing so well that you can teleport any more impactful than learning a magical technique that lets you teleport?
    Last edited by Arkhaic; 2014-09-24 at 12:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbacz
    For some people, at-will non-mundane martial abilities = wuxia anime = MMOs = 4E = Hitler = dead kittens.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    I disagree that it's off topic - the "psionics" stuff isn't the point of this, and we're in direct discussion of something that the developer and OP asked.
    Well, this thread is an announcement that DSP is releasing a new PoW book. So talking about how setting friendly psionics may or may not be does seem a bit off topic.

    That said, please stop making strawman arguments against me.
    It's not. You're the one saying that psionics is setting redefining. I'm jut disagreeing and attempting to restate my argument.

    Someone saying "well I'm not using psionics, I'm using a type of magic that doesn't need command words or somatic components" is reflavoring psionics, but the same statement doesn't need to be made about Path of War.
    I'm not reflavoring anything though. That's exactly what Psionics is. There's no refluffing required because, by default, Psionics is treated as magic.

    It's a super cool mechanical subsystem, but it's still magic and has only as much impact on a setting as you want it to. Just like martial disciplines. The two are more or less interchangeable. If Elminster were a psion you wouldn't really have to change anything about him except find and replacing a few key words. I'm just not seeing how this is super disruptive at all.

    The point I'm getting at is that, ignoring mechanics, what separates a Wizard and a Psion? Other than somatic and material components?

    Remember, this is the point of discussion:
    Yeah. I remember. I just don't think either require very much work to integrate into any setting unless you go out of your way to try to do so.
    Last edited by squiggit; 2014-09-24 at 12:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    More importantly, in a Core Only Game, you already have no less than four completely different and inherently irreconcilable by fluff ways to cast spells. If your concern is with the addition of people doing magic differently, well, that ship sailed LONG ago.
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    Default Re: Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    I'm not reflavoring anything though. That's exactly what Psionics is. There's no refluffing required because, by default, Psionics is treated as magic.

    Psionics isn't magic. People treat psionics like magic because it's mechanically easier and you can explain it to people with "it's like magic, but with mana", but actually saying that psionics is magic shows a severe and complete misunderstanding of what it is or its place in myth and popular culture.

    If it ever actually said anything close to "psionics is a type of magic" in any psionics supplement I've ever seen I'd agree, but the only people who ever say that are players and DMs who have never actually put thought into researching the concept.

    In fact, here's what Ultimate Psionics says when asked what psionics is:

    Spoiler
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    Psionics, in its simplest form, is harnessing the power of the mind and using it to perform tasks, feats, and aweinspiring acts. It is the act of using the mental power innate in a psionic character to perform actions that others deem impossible.
    While all characters have the capacity to harness this power of the mind, it is only by tapping into this potential that psionic characters are created. A psionic character has learned to tap into and utilize this internal energy, using it to expand their abilities or even to learn more about themselves. Once a psionic character has learned this pathway of psionics, it often becomes a path they cannot help themselves from further exploring. Like a moth drawn to a flame, so too is the mind drawn to the power of psionics once it has learned to tap into it.


    And here's the preface to the transparency rules. Emphasis mine.

    Spoiler
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    If you’re new to psionics, you still might have heard the term transparency thrown about. Transparency refers to the level at which magic and psionics interact, and how the two sources of energy behave with each other. In the default rules, psionics and magic are considered to be mechanically the same, just as divine magic and arcane magic interact as if the same. That means, among other things, that effects like dispel magic works on psionics, and vice versa. By keeping transparency intact, you limit the potential for unforeseen side effects of blending magic and psionics in the same game.


    Seems to me like they go out of their way in the book to make sure there's no confusion that psionics isn't magic. It's a power that is superficially similar and is mechanically represented in a way close to magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    Yeah. I remember. I just don't think either require very much work to integrate into any setting unless you go out of your way to try to do so.
    I don't really think so either. It's easy to say "psionics is a newly discovered power" or "psionics is just a type of magic", and neither of them cause significant problems.


    (By the way, now we're getting off topic, because this is just about psionics and not involved with whether or not setting changes are needed to make room for Path of War.)
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2014-09-24 at 01:15 AM.
    There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...

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