Durkon is misleading the Vampire Spirit.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To add to the Durkon curse list: "them leafy wankers" and "stick it up yer ass!" were lines said by him.

[Pyron]

Except that we did see him mislead HPoH when he wanted to know a proper exlamation to make during the thunder storm. So he can definitely fool him with a convincing memory from a different time, even if he can't make up a memory.

If Durkon never said "Thor's Nuts", then it's a fabricated memory. However, if you believe that Durkon cannot make up a memory, then he said "Thor's Nuts" at one point in his life - which makes it a proper exclaimation.

Also, don't forget that the HPoH can pull Durkon's memories himself.

[Peelee]

If Durkon never said "Thor's Nuts", then it's a fabricated memory. However, if you believe that Durkon cannot make up a memory, then he said "Thor's Nuts" at one point in his life - which makes it a proper exclaimation.

Also, don't forget that the HPoH can pull Durkon's memories himself.

Um.... Durkon never said, "Thor's nuts."* That, to my knowledge, had never been in question. Some other dwarf said it. From all appearances, the vampire just needed a generic dwarven curse, which he got.

*that we know of

[Pyron]

Um.... Durkon never said, "Thor's nuts."* That, to my knowledge, had never been in question. Some other dwarf said it. From all appearances, the vampire just needed a generic dwarven curse, which he got.

Using a generic Dwarven curse would have roused suspicion if Durkon never cursed, or is never one to curse. Remember, the HPoP needed to imitate Durkon, not some Dwarven soldier.

[SavageWombat]

I agree with Porthos.

I would much rather believe that Durkon is doing something, anything, to try to repair this situation instead of just stubbornly attempting to outlast his eventual doom. He is a main character, after all.

[Keltest]

I agree with Porthos.

I would much rather believe that Durkon is doing something, anything, to try to repair this situation instead of just stubbornly attempting to outlast his eventual doom. He is a main character, after all.

I would also like to believe that Durkon is attempting to do things. However, any speculation that involves Durkon doing things we know he cannot do is not likely to bear any fruit. It remains to be seen if Durkon can manipulate the spirit through their conversations, but if he were able to create falsehoods in the memories, he could have done something incredibly simple like change Roy's name to Ralph, or imply that Belkar is an incredibly nice person. Or that he doesn't speak with an accent.

[Angelalex242]

We do know, however, that if the vampire asks for memories that don't exist, he'll get a 404 not found. There might be something to that.

[Kish]

Using a generic Dwarven curse would have roused suspicion if Durkon never cursed, or is never one to curse. Remember, the HPoP needed to imitate Durkon, not some Dwarven soldier.

It is now my headcanon that what prompted the memory that started the current book was the High Priest of Hel saying to Durkon, "Considering what you've been telling me both Hel and I should do to ourselves since you got chained up there, I see you're a very foul-mouthed dwarf indeed. So what exact cursewords would you use in the 'the airship you're on just got struck by lightning' situation?"

[orrion]

I agree with Porthos.

I would much rather believe that Durkon is doing something, anything, to try to repair this situation instead of just stubbornly attempting to outlast his eventual doom. He is a main character, after all.

One point of showing the reader these repeated conversations may be to eventually clue us/Durkon into something he can do.

Right now, however, there doesn't seem to be much. He can't outright resist the High Priest - he was fighting every step of the way originally, and the High Priest learned what he wanted to anyway. Then Durkon tried information overload, and that didn't work either.

The High Priest has also indicated that he's absorbing Durkon's memories. He's not going to ask Durkon for the same thing another time because he doesn't need to. Once he sees a memory, it's his.

Using a generic Dwarven curse would have roused suspicion if Durkon never cursed, or is never one to curse. Remember, the HPoP needed to imitate Durkon, not some Dwarven soldier.

But he does curse.

No reason to think those aren't generic dwarven curses, either, given how prominent Thor seems to be to the dwarves in this universe.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The High Priest has also indicated that he's absorbing Durkon's memories. He's not going to ask Durkon for the same thing another time because he doesn't need to. Once he sees a memory, it's his.

In fact, I would imagine that he is continuously doing this so as to put Durkon into a state of dormancy as soon as possible. Giving him misleading memories might not be possible if he has seen too much.

[Peelee]

Using a generic Dwarven curse would have roused suspicion if Durkon never cursed, or is never one to curse. Remember, the HPoP needed to imitate Durkon, not some Dwarven soldier.

I seriously don't know what you're trying to argue for here, since it's established that Durkon does curse (and, according to Kish, is in fact the most foul-mouthed member of the order). I mean, yes, academically, if Durkon didnt curse, then using a generic curse would indicate that he isn't Durkon. You're correct on that; if things were different, they wouldn't be the same. But so what? Why bother saying that, since it's demonstrably not the case?

[Porthos]

I think the OP might be onto something, actually. Just not quite in the way it was presented.

I don't think for a moment that Durkon is fabricating these scenes. And I don't even think he has much say over which scenes get played (though he might have some if there are multiple choices at play).

But where he DOES have a say is in the very dialogue that is going on between him and the HPoH. Can the words you say to other people influence them? Well, at the moment that's all Durkon has. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Durkon is going to talk the HPoH out of his evil schemes.

But, at the same time, speaking can be one of the more powerful tools of manipulation there is. He might be able to get the HPoH to zag (via things he says or doesn't say) when he should have zigged.

*does a victory jig*

OK, OK. it's early. Don't care.

[Mith]

Anyone read the Ed Greenwood book "Elminister in Hell"? A devil is trying to get secrets out of the strongest mage in the Realms (Elminister), and is delayed by indirect memories. Taking things by force is inefficient, because things become jumbled and out of context. I think that situation is similar to what Durkon is going through in this arc.

[SavageWombat]

What if it's not just that Durkon learned somethin' about HPoH, but that he learned somethin' about himself? He never really realized how much he internalized instructions like the one his mom gave him?

[evileeyore]

He's also discovered that he can minimize what should be "key Durkon Personality Traits" by a) overindulging in sappy childhood memories and b) making dumb jokes since the Possessing Spirit is way overconfident.

I guess the Possessing Spirit isn't smarter than Durkon.

[Pyron]

I seriously don't know what you're trying to argue for here,

You quoted my argument. But, I'll repeat it again.

The HPoP needed something to say so that he can imitate Durkon. He needs to convince the OotS that he's the same Durkon they knew, not some random dwarf. He wasn't looking for a generic Dwarven curse, he was looking for something that'll Durkon would say. So, the idea that Durkon used that memory to mislead the HPoP holds no water. This is especially true since strip #963 shows that Durkon just figured out that he might able to pull that trick with the HPoP.

[Keltest]

You quoted my argument. But, I'll repeat it again.

The HPoP needed something to say so that he can imitate Durkon. He needs to convince the OotS that he's the same Durkon they knew, not some random dwarf. He wasn't looking for a generic Dwarven curse, he was looking for something that'll Durkon would say. So, the idea that Durkon used that memory to mislead the HPoP holds no water. This is especially true since strip #963 shows that Durkon just figured out that he might able to pull that trick with the HPoP.

Except that in the memory in question it was just some random dwarf that said it, and theres no indication that Durkon's curses have been unique to him rather than a cultural norm for dwarves.

Yes, you are correct, but not for any of the reasons Peelee had quoted.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Except that in the memory in question it was just some random dwarf that said it, and theres no indication that Durkon's curses have been unique to him rather than a cultural norm for dwarves.

Yes, you are correct, but not for any of the reasons Peelee had quoted.

This. The High Priest of Hel was looking for a generic Dwarven curse because Durkon is a generic dwarf. For example, Haley and Celia can't think of a single thing that separates him from any other male dwarf.

[veti]

I guess the Possessing Spirit isn't smarter than Durkon.

The HPoH is not only dumber than Durkon, he's dumber than any reader on this forum. That means he must have a single-digit WIS score, and the only reason it's mechanically higher is because he can effectively use Durkon's WIS whenever he needs it.

[Keltest]

The HPoH is not only dumber than Durkon, he's dumber than any reader on this forum. That means he must have a single-digit WIS score, and the only reason it's mechanically higher is because he can effectively use Durkon's WIS whenever he needs it.

Well, how are you defining dumber? The HPoH has never been a mortal and is operating entirely out of his level of understanding. Heck, based on his lack of understanding of memories, it might be safe to say he is literally a newborn entity. He doesn't have any sort of experience to draw on when referencing things like how memories work, because hes never developed any of his own to understand.

[Chantelune]

So, according to some people here, Durkon coming up with a swear he never said in comic before is proof that he's no longer Durkon ? does that mean that he's been Not-Durkon since pretty much the start of the comic ?

Regarding Durkon misleading Durkula, I doubt it considering the lattest strip (963) showed him realising that Durkula wasn't able to link two distant memories with one explaining the other. This kind of imply that so far, Durkon just assumed that Durkula was understanding the memories just as he does. But misleading him using his memories would require just that.

So I doubt he did so far, but now that he noticed that inability in Durkula, I think Durkon might be a bit more selective in which memory to show the vampire. Guess we'll see.

[veti]

Well, how are you defining dumber? The HPoH has never been a mortal and is operating entirely out of his level of understanding. Heck, based on his lack of understanding of memories, it might be safe to say he is literally a newborn entity. He doesn't have any sort of experience to draw on when referencing things like how memories work, because hes never developed any of his own to understand.

Yep. Or to put it another way: he has extremely low Wisdom.

[factotum]

Yep. Or to put it another way: he has extremely low Wisdom.

I don't think lack of experience equates to low Wisdom, at least not in D&D terms. When all else is said and done, the HPoH is a cleric, and a cleric with low Wisdom just doesn't work--not to mention that adding the vampire template to a creature gives +2 Wisdom, so HPoH actually has a higher score on that front than Durkon does.

[happycrow]

The HPoH is not only dumber than Durkon, he's dumber than any reader on this forum. That means he must have a single-digit WIS score, and the only reason it's mechanically higher is because he can effectively use Durkon's WIS whenever he needs it.

Disagree. He's not dumb. He's a HPOH. Living for him is simply data-points along a path. He's trying to imitate Durkon - understanding Durkon isn't important to him, and I'd bet a dollar to a halfling-cooked donut that he's never even conceived of understanding or empathizing with his prey being a thing, let alone a potentially important thing.

He's not living, so he doesn't grow. He's, in fact, the embodiment of not growing or learning, as I put it on the main thread for this, "valuable life lessons." Probably part of why nobody worships Hel. Because what she represents is awful. And Durkon's figuring out that there's a lot of liability baked into that cake.

[orrion]

Yep. Or to put it another way: he has extremely low Wisdom.

Dumb does not mean "lack of experience(s)."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Dumb does not mean "lack of experience(s)."

That, and he is approaching this from an alien perspective. He is very different from Durkon or the audience.

[veti]

I don't think lack of experience equates to low Wisdom, at least not in D&D terms. When all else is said and done, the HPoH is a cleric, and a cleric with low Wisdom just doesn't work--not to mention that adding the vampire template to a creature gives +2 Wisdom, so HPoH actually has a higher score on that front than Durkon does.

"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

There's no information about willpower, but "common sense, perception, and intuition" are all quite demonstrably not only "not exceptional", they are "abnormally lacking" here. Case in point: he's just flunked a Sense Motive check where he was not only shown the source material up front, but also was out-bluffed by a cleric with a Cha penalty.

As for "being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings" - his "surroundings", currently, is Durkon's life and personality, which he's trying to emulate. His success in that is nothing to do with his own attribute, and everything to do with having Durkon to do his thinking for him.

So I theorise that "the gestalt entity that is (HPoH plus Durkon)" may have an effectively high wisdom, but the HPoH by itself - does not.

[Porthos]

The HPoH is not only dumber than Durkon, he's dumber than any reader on this forum.

What, exactly, is the reason for this assertion?

[Pegasus]

I am taking the flashbacks more as character development rather than a trick on the vampire (although hey, none of us really know for sure!) - after all we have met family members of all the other party members (except Belkar) and the other characters have had their own subplots and individual missions (once again except Belkar). I think this is some clever development of Durkon's character being worked into the story line to possibly make it even more tragic when he is unable to be restored to a non-vampire state, or maybe to have an interesting family reunion - after all, who best to work out that the vampire spirit is not Durkon than his family?

[Timy]

Yep. Or to put it another way: he has extremely low Wisdom.

Actually, in term of D&D mechanics, he has at least 17 in wisdom in order to cast weather control which is a 7th level cleric spell.

But yes, there is a lack of common sense.

And I don't no the quote from the Giant but he once said that "dumb behavior can't means low stat"