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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyena View Post
    Uh, no. Humans from Lordaeron go full racist - Garithos was leading the Lordaeron Kingdom Remnants. Stormwind was destroyed by the Horde in Warcraft 2, but then retconned back into existance with WoW, because Blizzard needed a human kingdom other then Theramore.
    Bah, I got my destroyed human kingdoms mixed up.

    Still utterly nonsensical though.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    That...has to be the most inaccurate thing I have read in this thread. I do hope it was merely a massively poorly worded statement, as otherwise I really have little idea where to begin in everything that is wrong with what you just said.

    Although there is a clip from a movie that comes to mind...
    *shrug*

    All I can tell you is that no single piece of standalone media has ever had a lasting effect on me, and all the media that has was part of a larger or more extensive work in some form.

    And, I suspect, many of the works other people consider influential or classics (literary or otherwise) - and, for that matter, let us be clear: whether or not they are stand-alone or otherwise extensive - I am likely to personally find uninteresting in themselves, even if the historical context that surrounds them is more interesting or important.

    (Please do note, ladies, gentleman and other assorted thread-going entities, that I did preface the offending paragraph with "I work on the basis that" and end with "I, at least" (I checked) - apparently I should have added some more as well, but nevermind, too late now; perils of time shortages at current, I'm afraid. But if anyone does wish to take my opinion as objective fact, then I shall be both flattered and wish that more people would do the same.)

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyena View Post
    Uh, no. Humans from Lordaeron go full racist - Garithos was leading the Lordaeron Kingdom Remnants. Stormwind was destroyed by the Horde in Warcraft 2, but then retconned back into existance with WoW, because Blizzard needed a human kingdom other then Theramore.
    They had rebuilt SW in beyond the dark portal. /nitpick
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    They had rebuilt SW in beyond the dark portal.
    The problem isn't the city itself. Cities can be rebuilt. The problem is the kingdom itself, that magically got back a population enough to sustain an army that took part in multiple devastating wars (as the main participant, because draenei, night elves and others are much rarer on front lines) and still have more then enough to throw at the Iron Horde. All because Blizzard wants nothing but orcs and humans.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyena View Post
    The problem isn't the city itself. Cities can be rebuilt. The problem is the kingdom itself, that magically got back a population enough to sustain an army that took part in multiple devastating wars (as the main participant, because draenei, night elves and others are much rarer on front lines) and still have more then enough to throw at the Iron Horde. All because Blizzard wants nothing but orcs and humans.
    Ok, that makes sense.

    To be fair to blizzard, i do believe most of the sw civilians made it to lorderan where they lived as refugees, and modern sw likewise has numerous refugees from the destroyed kingdoms of lorderan, stromgarde, gilneas, alterac, and maybe dalaran.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Heck, they bent Warcraft lore into a pretzel right from the start with WoW. They annihilated the story they were wanting to tell because they needed two factions.
    Don't forget Garona, the half orc / half human assassin who, wait, the timeline has been retconned, so orc/humn hybrids aren't possible at that time in the story, so she must be half, erm, Draenei!

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Don't forget Garona, the half orc / half human assassin who, wait, the timeline has been retconned, so orc/humn hybrids aren't possible at that time in the story, so she must be half, erm, Draenei!
    To be fair I hated the plot twists they had in Warcraft III too, which I have been told is the best in the series. Dark elves are terribad.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Short answer to the original question: yes.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Closet_Skeleton's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    They had rebuilt SW in beyond the dark portal. /nitpick
    Technically Stormwind didn't exist until WoW. It was the Kingdom of Azeroth in Orcs and Humans and Warcraft 2 which had a capital called Stormwind Keep. Azeroth was still the blue human faction in Warcraft 2, they were just exiles living in other Kingdoms. Then they retconned Azeroth into being the name of the world rather than just one country, dropped the 'keep' from the name of the capital and renamed the country after it.

    I was a Warcraft fan until WoW came out you see. I have all the first set of RPG books too. As far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as a 'Kingdom of Stormwind' and never has been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Dark night elves are terribad.
    They're not dark elves, they're closer to wood elves, they're just purple and have a silly name.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2014-10-02 at 12:23 PM.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

    When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.


  10. - Top - End - #100
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    SiuiS's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    That is hard to see. Geek Q does not care, geek C and Z care too much....you can't be both.
    By your word, sure. But you're reducing a complex interactive relationship down to several words and calling it done. That's bad. You're removing the complexity that makes the issue worth considering. I've met many people who get very caught up and invested in canonicity and validity but who also can and do, as you say, drink the [sic]Cool Aid.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    By your word, sure. But you're reducing a complex interactive relationship down to several words and calling it done. That's bad. You're removing the complexity that makes the issue worth considering. I've met many people who get very caught up and invested in canonicity and validity but who also can and do, as you say, drink the [sic]Cool Aid.

    Canon is not that complex.

    Whoever owns the fiction gets to decide what is canon. If the owner is the creator, or a fan, then they might keep the canon pure and true to whatever vision they think is right and correct at any one time. If the owner is anyone else, chances are they only care about money.

    If your a fan at home, canon does not really matter: if you like something, then you do and if you don't like something you don't. Only a couple of die hard zealots will only view only canon, it does not matter to most others. If an average fan sees the book ''The Trial of Boba Fet'', they might pick it up and read it. If they like it they don't really care that if ''someone somewhere'' says ''that book is not real and never happened''.

    And some fans like canon as they then feel they know the real and true story about the fiction. Except that the owner can change anything on a whim. So a fan can know something is one way for twenty years, and then that ''someone somewhere'' can just change it. And on top of that, most fiction is fast and loose at best. Any writer/creator/producer can just make or add anything, often without knowing or even caring about what has gone before. A lot of canon won't exactly match up, without a lot of work.

    So does it matter? Han Solo, my view of Han Solo, is a cool killing scoundrel character. The kind of person who shoots first under the table when he feels threatened. Now the canon says that Han Solo is a space cop(and by ''cop'' I'm saying he is a person who, for no good reason, follows the rules that all cops on any cop show must follow, like they can never shoot first.) with a heart of gold, the type who only shoots to kill in self-defense and only after being shoot at first.

    So does it matter......no.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is "canon" meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Canon is not that complex.


    So does it matter......no.
    Thank you for that thoughtful and well written post, with which I am entirely in agreement.

    To elaborate slightly, why would it matter? My fondness for the Iliad is hardly a secret, I don't get my undies in a bunch because the movie Troy changes a bunch of stuff. They're two versions of what is nominally the same story. My mind is not too small to accommodate both, and insistence on slavish obedience to the previous version of the story is stifling1. I believe I am also on record as enjoying much of Tolkien's work. The fact that not everything within that is consistent is hardly bothersome. It means that story A is not congruent in exactitude with story B. Expecting a piece of fiction to be a documentary report on fictional events is a recipe for incredibly tedious fiction.

    Now to be fair, I don't care about giant media franchises managed by multi-million dollar corporations, so this is probably less of an issue to me. On the other hand, getting attached to the exact chronology of something with a 'brand manager' seems to be setting oneself up for misery. It's yet another problem solved through the nigh endless power of not giving a damn!


    1Which is not to imply I don't have my limits. You try to sell me Homeric heroes as chripy teenagers fighting monsters and saving the world, unpleasantness will ensue. If Achilles in leather pants appeals to you, have at it, but keep it the hell away from me.
    Last edited by warty goblin; 2014-10-02 at 11:19 PM.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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