The anger of Terry Pratchett

[pendell]

Article in the Guardian by some guy named Neil Gaiman -- who's he? Anyways, he talks about his years with Terry Pratchett and how it's actually Terry's anger that drives most of his humor -- his anger against injustice.

I understand Monty Python was similarly powered, in at least two of the cast members.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Benthesquid]

Article in the Guardian by some guy named Neil Gaiman -- who's he? Anyways, he talks about his years with Terry Pratchett and how it's actually Terry's anger that drives most of his humor -- his anger against injustice.

I understand Monty Python was similarly powered, in at least two of the cast members.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gaiman is a British author and comic writer (American Gods, Coraline, Sandman), and a friend of Pratchett's. The two co-wrote Good Omens together.

I hadn't thought about Pratchett as angry, but it doesn't particularly surprise me, thinking back over Discworld (especially the Watch books).

[Lurkmoar]

He might have been kidding about not knowing who Neil Gaiman is. Maybe. Oh well.

I can imagine that Terry Pratchett had a bit of anger.

[Benthesquid]

He might have been kidding about not knowing who Neil Gaiman is. Maybe. Oh well.

*shrug*. Not everyone knows the same authors as I do, even ones that are relatively well known.

[Joran]

“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”

[Tengu_temp]

Considering how heavy-handed the messages became in later Discworld books, I don't find this surprising.

Surprising, or a good thing; I think the overall quality of Discworld books took a sharp nosedive after Night Watch.

[tensai_oni]

Hey now. Discworld books were always about injustice and rage against it, even as early as Equal Rites. Small Gods, Reaper Man - these are some of Pratchett's best, and are heavily based on his inner rage too.

It's just that Pratchett's writing was better before. Nowadays his books feel like a moralistic filibuster with the story tacked on, as opposed to the other way around.

[hamishspence]

I thought Nation struck a pretty good balance.

I think A Slip of the Keyboard (released earlier this week) was what the Guardian article would have been quoting - it's a compilation of Pratchett essays - and at least one Neil Gaiman snippet about Pratchett's anger.

[smuchmuch]

Hum I'm kind of wondering how much of his latest books are really written by him beyond some vague plot outline at this point.
(Don't get me wrong, that's not an attack, from what i've heard ghost writting is pretty common for succes serial authors and on top of that the man has Alzheimer, just think that would go a long way to explain how much the books feel like they are so repeating themselves after a while.)

Or maybe the man jsut ran out of jokes to balance the moralizing, after more than thirty books I guess it's only to be expected.

[BWR]

Considering how heavy-handed the messages became in later Discworld books, I don't find this surprising.

Surprising, or a good thing; I think the overall quality of Discworld books took a sharp nosedive after Night Watch.

You aren't alone. I'm fine with being angry and having a message. It just shouldn't affect the quality of the story or become obnoxious.
In general I prefer the early/'adolescent' period of DW to the later stuff. The witches, for instance, were best in "Wyrd sisters" and "Equal rites". They, especially Granny, got too über as time went on.

[hamishspence]

Hence the switch away from Granny to Tiffany. It's not like Tiffany throws around a lot of power in I Shall Wear Midnight, for example.

[pendell]

He might have been kidding about not knowing who Neil Gaiman is. Maybe. Oh well.

Yes, yes, I was kidding. Neil Gaiman is a superb SF author in his own right, and the co-author with Pratchett of Good Omens. :)

ETA: As to the quality of the books, ironically, I think his best new offerings are his non-discworld works. Nation is excellent, as is Dodger. I'm getting through Raising Steam at the moment, but it seems like a fairly formulaic Moist novel. It's passable, but it's not breaking new ground and it's nothing close to Night Watch . As for Snuff ... I can't say I care for it at all. The earlier Vimes understood the need to be circumspect when you were a good man in a bad city. The Vimes of Snuff is one step below a comic-book superhero, writing centuries old wrongs in the space of a few in-story days. The reason I enjoy Terry Pratchett, besides the humor, is that it sometimes well reflects the struggle of trying to be a good man in a bad town -- as he put it in Night Watch, find a space between impossible perfection and darkness. It's a very Noir atmosphere. It's not a superman atmosphere. Caped crusaders have no place in Discworld unless played for irony. Which is why I didn't especially care for Snuff .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BWR]

Hence the switch away from Granny to Tiffany. It's not like Tiffany throws around a lot of power in I Shall Wear Midnight, for example.

Tiffany is just Granny junior. My problem wasn't Granny and the witches having raw power, it was how they went from rather ridiculous characters to being zomgawesum. Granny was really bad in this respect. Viems suffered the same sort of character growth. He was flawed and clever and fun. Then Pratchett got carried away with how great the character was. I haven't read anything since "Unseen academicals" because the same thing was happening with the wizards - not quite such ridiculous characters, too soapboxy, too repetitive.

One of the reasons I liked Nation was, despite it being somewhat soapboxy, it allowed Pterry to move away from DW and work with new charactes, new settings and fresh stories without the baggage of the Disc. The Disc started as a vehicle for making fun of fantasy tropes and society but over time got bogged down in trying to have an internal consistency and characters. It was a victim of its own success and detail.

[Jayngfet]

Hey now. Discworld books were always about injustice and rage against it, even as early as Equal Rites. Small Gods, Reaper Man - these are some of Pratchett's best, and are heavily based on his inner rage too.

It's just that Pratchett's writing was better before. Nowadays his books feel like a moralistic filibuster with the story tacked on, as opposed to the other way around.

Sadly true.

Though personally I feel that it's less about his writing quality(which sadly has taken a dip in the last decade, but is still pretty good), and more about the way the Discworld itself has evolved.

Ankh-Morpork is basically just a slightly lower tech London now, since they have glorified internet and trains that run on time and they're even building suburbs and everything. The ramtops and other villages have become safe thanks to decades of crazy hard work from the witches who've become really good at their jobs. Uberwald has gone from real danger to mostly ceremonial tropes, and Trolls and Dwarves can at least be in the same room without hating each other.

One of the main draws for me on Discworld has always been how pulpy the older paperbacks were. Old Discworld had a monster around every corner and a barbarian or witch at the edge of society to counter them, every city was a maze of filth and daggers, and beyond the world lied horrors so insane that they tortured sleeping mages in their dreams. A hero had to live by the edge of his or her wits and use every single thing available to succeed.

Now the setting is way too ...safe. We have this new guys Moist who's entire story is basically glorified paperwork. Vimes has the cities resources and cooperation to fall back on, the witches are basically just superheroes as far as anyone is concerned, and Rincewind is gone and basically can't appear again since he's got nothing worth running away from anymore. Ironically the only one who's even close to having a level of danger is Tiffany waaaaay over in the YA section, because she's inexperienced and naive and dealing with crap in an area other heroic characters haven't brought down the law on.

Tiffany is just Granny junior. My problem wasn't Granny and the witches having raw power, it was how they went from rather ridiculous characters to being zomgawesum. Granny was really bad in this respect. Viems suffered the same sort of character growth. He was flawed and clever and fun. Then Pratchett got carried away with how great the character was. I haven't read anything since "Unseen academicals" because the same thing was happening with the wizards - not quite such ridiculous characters, too soapboxy, too repetitive.

One of the reasons I liked Nation was, despite it being somewhat soapboxy, it allowed Pterry to move away from DW and work with new charactes, new settings and fresh stories without the baggage of the Disc. The Disc started as a vehicle for making fun of fantasy tropes and society but over time got bogged down in trying to have an internal consistency and characters. It was a victim of its own success and detail.

Agreed on Nation. It was really nice as a change of pace. It felt a bit contrived at points but it managed to keep that "everything is awful oh god" bit that made early Discworld so fun. In retrospect I should probably check out his other books on multiple earths since they're another clean slate for him.

[thorgrim29]

I wonder if many other YA novels have a man almost beating his preganant 13 years old daughter to death... The only Tiffay Achings book I read was I Shall Wear Midnight, and it felt much more like an adult book then YA

[Math_Mage]

Pratchett started Discworld by creating a wizzard whose existence was defined by running away from things. Not anymore. It's difficult to keep playing after you've won the game.

[Rodin]

I had the myth of "jolly old elf" Pratchett dispelled when I saw an interview of him as a bonus feature for one of the live-action movies...Hogfather I think it was. He commented on religion and atheism and it became very clear that he had strongly held beliefs on the subject.

I remain impressed that he managed to channel that into accessible, funny writing that could still make a point. Small Gods in particular changed my view on global religion.

[BRC]

Yeah, the more recent discworld books have all disappointed me. I couldn't even get through Raising Steam.

Pratchett's characters are at their best when they are triumphing against all odds. He writes very smart, very intelligent characters.

Of course the problem is that smart, intelligent, good people don't just triumph against all odds and then go home, they change the world for the better.

Thud worked because his enemies were not mortal. I suppose in a way he was fighting the Summoning Dark, but his REAL enemy was hatred and stupidity and a blood feud that had been going on as long as anybody knew. In Night Watch Vimes was fighting against not just an overwhelming army and Carcer, but in many ways he was battling the inevitability of fate.
In Snuff...I'm not even sure what he was doing in Snuff. Goblins became a big deal out of nowhere, and Vimes seemed to solve all the problems not by cunning and will, but by basically being Vimes in the immediate vicinity of problems that needed solving.

Going Postal is one of my favorite books. Moist's antagonists are his own nature, the insurmountable problem facing him, AND Reacher Gilt. Moist wins by developing as a character (Overcoming his desire to just run away again), and being a better con man than Reacher.

In Making Money, Moist is well respected, he's handed power and...and what? He just sort of won in the end.

Vimes, Moist, and Vetinari basically fixed Anhk-Morpork. Sure, it's still a city full of greed and people willing to jump onto the next big thing, but it's better. The big corrupt institutions have been tamed or beaten back.

In addition, it seems like with the Moist books anyway, Pratchett has a bad habit of having characters demonstrate their intelligence simply by mimicking the modern world. There's a bit in Making Money where Moist instructs the bank to have the customers wait in one big line, with the person at the front going to the next available teller, rather than a line for each teller. For this, he is hailed as some sort of revolutionary genius.

The Spark seems to have gone out of the more recent books.

[Jayngfet]

Pratchett started Discworld by creating a wizzard whose existence was defined by running away from things. Not anymore. It's difficult to keep playing after you've won the game.

That's what New Game+ is for. But that kind of assumes your enemies will scale up with you, which Disc enemies haven't. Vimes at his best wound up fighting a bunch of nobodies from hicktown, and it's hard to think of an Orc vs some random street tough as even remotely fair even before Prachett gave the former a friggin wolverine claws.

Weatherwax should be beating up stuff from the dungeon dimensions and Vimes needs a vast conspiracy to really challenge him, but their enemies have gotten smaller instead of bigger.

There's also the fact that everyone currently has comic book mortality. Venetari is like a billion years old and was never particularly buff and healthy, but nobody seems to expect him to die any time soon. The same can be said of Weatherwax and Ridcully and basically every other elder character. There's talks of war but the reader never actually takes them seriously.

Discworld needs a major shake up. Someone has to die or Venetari's plans need to fail due to unforseen consequences or war needs to break out and throw everyone into something bigger than themselves. Hell, a major conflict would probably be just the reset button the setting needs.

[Eldan]

The Spark seems to have gone out of the more recent books.

It really has. Looking back, everything was fine and dandy until Wintersmith. Thud and Going Postal were phenomenal. Making Money was Going Postal again, but less so and less interesting. Unseen Academicals didn't grab me, but at the time, I blamed the subject, which I didn't care for. I Shall Wear Midnight... eh? Just not good. Snuff was outright terrible in every way. Derailed characters, stupid plot, new race of creatures out of nowhere, not anvil drops but orbital anvil strikes and Vimes... Vimes worked better when he was the underdog, not starting out and ending with every advantage. I haven't even tried Raising Steam.

A few years ago, I would have thought that this was impossible. A new Terry Pratchett book (bought it when it came out) and I don't want to read it.

[Hyena]

I don't want to be a party pooper here, hell, I am a big fan of Pratchett's work, but if I were you, I wouldn't expect any sort of reboot or new beginning or shakeup for Discworld for the reasons we all know.

[hamishspence]

I enjoyed Raising Steam - but then I enjoyed Snuff and Monstrous Regiment as well. A slightly soapbox style doesn't bother me - and it's interesting to see another technology grow from its early stages.

[Math_Mage]

That's what New Game+ is for.

[...]

Discworld needs a major shake up. Someone has to die or Venetari's plans need to fail due to unforseen consequences or war needs to break out and throw everyone into something bigger than themselves. Hell, a major conflict would probably be just the reset button the setting needs.

My position is that, quite aside from whether it's practical or reasonable for Pratchett to hit a reset button, I don't think the setting needs more story, obviating the question of a reset button. The world is thoroughly explored, its conflicts thoroughly resolved. Any setting can be made to deliver more story with enough work, but at some point it's just not a good use of time.

[hamishspence]

I don't want to be a party pooper here, hell, I am a big fan of Pratchett's work, but if I were you, I wouldn't expect any sort of reboot or new beginning or shakeup for Discworld for the reasons we all know.

I'm wondering if Scouting For Trolls is still in the works.

[thorgrim29]

According to Wikipedia the only forthcoming book is the next Tiffany Achings

[Eldan]

Is it? There's tons of countries that are barely mentioned in short asides. There could always be a story set in Howondaland.

[pendell]

The world is thoroughly explored, its conflicts thoroughly resolved

Oh, I would rather say that Ankh-Morporkh and its surrounding environs is thoroughly explored, as is the Kingdom of Lancre. But the Discworld is a planet ... well, a disc on top of four elephants on top of a turtle, but you get the idea. There's a whole lot of geography out there, such as the city of Pseudopolis, which is just a name on a map.

Yes, Ankh-Morporkh has the rule of law and subways and instantaneous communication. Most of Uberwald doesn't. The Lost Continent doesn't. Whatever the name of the country that Twoflower is from doesn't. Ankh-Morporkh is essentially the center of civilization on the disc, the 'bright spot at the center of the galaxy', as it were, but it's still just a dot on the map.

So another thing Terry could do is take an existing character and drop him in an entirely different environment. This worked pretty well, I thought, with Rincewind in The Last Continent. Well .. it worked once, anyway.

Or he could just start a new setting with new characters from scratch, keeping only the lessons he took from discworld. I think that's what he tried with Dodger and Nation. I thought he did pretty well, actually.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Math_Mage]

Oh, I would rather say that Ankh-Morporkh and its surrounding environs is thoroughly explored, as is the Kingdom of Lancre. But the Discworld is a planet ... well, a disc on top of four elephants on top of a turtle, but you get the idea. There's a whole lot of geography out there, such as the city of Pseudopolis, which is just a name on a map.

Yes, Ankh-Morporkh has the rule of law and subways and instantaneous communication. Most of Uberwald doesn't. The Lost Continent doesn't. Whatever the name of the country that Twoflower is from doesn't. Ankh-Morporkh is essentially the center of civilization on the disc, the 'bright spot at the center of the galaxy', as it were, but it's still just a dot on the map.

So another thing Terry could do is take an existing character and drop him in an entirely different environment. This worked pretty well, I thought, with Rincewind in The Last Continent. Well .. it worked once, anyway.

Or he could just start a new setting with new characters from scratch, keeping only the lessons he took from discworld. I think that's what he tried with Dodger and Nation. I thought he did pretty well, actually.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

There's locations, to be sure. But...how many sequels to Interesting Times or The Last Continent could one write? What is there to say about Al Khali from Sourcery? To me, that's like writing a sequel novel about the dragon civilization from The Color of Magic. How about Small Gods? It seems that places on the Discworld go from central setting, to tourist/one-time setting, to "town of origin" or anecdote. While it pays to be from somewhere far away, going there is another story.

[hamishspence]

There's characters whose stories could be followed up on a bit. I Shall Wear Midnight did it - and maybe others could.

It would be nice to see Conina, or Pteppic, in the present-day.

[Morty]

Pratchett has always had this deep, scouring cynicism regarding the worse sides of human nature. It just became less subtle over time, perhaps. As far as quality of the books goes, I think people might be right that Discworld has hit the point where the author needs to wrap it up and let it rest. At which exact point it happens is up to debate. I never stopped liking them - but there is a change, and there does seem to be something missing. So it goes.