New friends invited me to join their 4E group. (only ever played 3.5)

[Dreksontar]

So I met a new group of friends recently through moving, and they have invited me to play 4E. I've only ever played 3.5 and am looking for advice on character building. They say the group is higher optimization and so have recommended I do some research beforehand, and I would like to come into this with an idea of how I should build. They're starting a new campaign from level one. I am looking to play something that can withstand a hit but still deal damage (bruiser) Although I am leaning towards warlord, paladin or cleric. At the moment every book is on the table but no dragon magazine. Any help is appreciated.

[Inevitability]

Something that is tough but can dish out damage? Strength/Wisdom focused half-orc paladin.

[Kimera757]

How are you generating ability scores? Hopefully by point buy. Make sure your key stat is at least 18 and your secondary is 14-16 and you'll be fine there.

Take an expertise feat. These provide +1 to hit per tier (so +3 by epic). These are a "math fix" and are practically mandatory. Which one you take depends on your character concept. If you're playing a big bruiser using a hammer, then it's Hammer Expertise. If you want to be able to switch weapons for some reason, you would want Master of Arms. Playing a wizard? Orb Expertise or Staff Expertise or whatever expertise.

In addition to the math boost, every expertise feat gives a relevant boost. Hammer Expertise lets you push opponents further. Orb Expertise gives bonuses to forced movement. Staff Expertise prevents a wizard from provoking opportunity attacks with ranged and area spells (that is really strong).

What is everyone else playing? That may help guide your character choices.

[Epinephrine]

What is everyone else playing? That may help guide your character choices.

4e is very much a team game. Find out if there is a role they need filled.

[Tegu8788]

Welcome to 4E. Compared to 3.5, the Wizard is a bruiser. Everyone is a lot tougher.

As said above, 4E is a team game. There are four roles. It works best when each role is covered, but you don't need them. Which of these sound best to you:
Defender - You can take the biggest hits in the party and when an enemy is stupid enough to ignore you, you often get an extra chance to beat on them. Your job is to give the enemy two bad options, attack your better defenses and more hit points, or attack one of your allies and get punished for it.

Controller - How would you like to make the enemies hate life? That's what a controller does. You take away all their options so they can't do anything effective. They may as well go sit and cry in a corner. This is probably my favorite role because it allows for the most tactical play.

Leader - The leader is not necessarily the one who makes the big decisions for the group (some people think that, but it doesn't have to be true at all). He is also not just a walking box of bandaids anymore. Most of your healing is either a minor action or comes along with another power that has other cool effects. You are a force multiplier. Whatever good things the rest of the party can do, you make it even better. This is probably the most important role because it allows you to take on more powerful foes and come out on top.

Striker - The most appealing part of a striker is the damage... oh the damage. You pick out an enemy and make him DEAD. In some ways strikers are a more independent role, since you usually have the mobility to run around the battlefield dishing out heaping helpings of hurting, but if you learn how to play well with the other roles, it only enhances your effectiveness.

These are stolen from Dariathalon, and they are great explanations of the roles I think. Also, in this game, everyone deals damage. The cleric hits somebody, and the hit makes healing happen. Very few things in this game don't do some kind of damage. It may not be tons, but some. If you want to be durable and go good damage, any number of Fighter or Paladin builds could work, Barbarians and Monks also have those options. The Rogue and Avenger can be hard to hit.

If you can tell us what the others are playing, and what you want to do, we can point you in the right direction.

[Dreksontar]

Welcome to 4E. Compared to 3.5, the Wizard is a bruiser. Everyone is a lot tougher.



If you can tell us what the others are playing, and what you want to do, we can point you in the right direction.

They've said that they will choose their builds after I've chosen what I want to play to give me more options and put no limits on my first time in the game, so anything is open. The striker/controller playstyles interest me and everything being tankier than 3.5 definitely looks interesting. I'll make sure to pick up the expertise feats. From what people have said I'm leaning towards paladin.

[Dimers]

They've said that they will choose their builds after I've chosen what I want to play to give me more options and put no limits on my first time in the game, so anything is open. The striker/controller playstyles interest me and everything being tankier than 3.5 definitely looks interesting. I'll make sure to pick up the expertise feats. From what people have said I'm leaning towards paladin.

Yep, paladin is a solid choice. All the defenders (swordmage, battlemind, fighter, warden, paladin) are good for durability, with only a couple strikers (barbarian, avenger) in the same territory in terms of hit points and surges. Without looking at the classes you're leaning toward, I would have said fighter or barbarian. But paladin would certainly do the trick. Be aware, though, that the paladin is more MAD than most 4e classes -- you can get by without much Strength, but paladins in general enjoy Str, Con, Wis and Cha, and you might find yourself spreading yourself too thin.

[Tegu8788]

How do you like the idea of being a dude that grabs guys and holds them down? The grappler fighter makes for a good melee guy that does damage and controls the battlefield.


Now, if striker/controller is your thing, I'd recommend an Invoker or Wizard. A Druid could also be good here.

[GPuzzle]

I actually recommend the Fighter. Deals good damage, can keep several enemies near him, hampering them and is also pretty tanky.

[Kurald Galain]

They've said that they will choose their builds after I've chosen what I want to play to give me more options and put no limits on my first time in the game, so anything is open. The striker/controller playstyles interest me and everything being tankier than 3.5 definitely looks interesting. I'll make sure to pick up the expertise feats. From what people have said I'm leaning towards paladin.

But a paladin is neither a striker nor a controller.

There's nothing wrong with paladins, of course, but you should first make up your mind regarding what you want to play.

[Tegu8788]

A Paladin can be build to do respectable damage, and with Sanctions and the "melee controller" defender argument, a Paladin can control some space.

But you are very right, a Paladin is a Defender. Not a Striker or Controller. It's fun, but those aren't the strengths.

[Inevitability]

Something important for new people: You can refluff a lot in 4e. If you see a class you love mechanically but absolutely hate it's fluff, you can just remove the fluff and replace it with something else. This can even go as far as completely describing your attacks differently.

For example, a lot of people who want to play a necromancer in 4e don't play the (bad) wizard option, but instead are a shaman (which gets a ghost-like 'pet') and call it 'an unholy creature animated by foul magicks'.

Another example: I'm currently playing as a pseudodragon in a 4e game. Mechanically, it's a pixie, but I refluffed it completely.

[GPuzzle]

There was that time I refflufed a Goliath Barbarian as a living rock. That was fun. His Gouge was actually a carved version of his arm.

[Dreksontar]

I actually recommend the Fighter. Deals good damage, can keep several enemies near him, hampering them and is also pretty tanky.

This sounds almost exactly like what I want right here. Although how to go about it. Looking at the base races looks like dragon-born dwarf or human would make great starts for this.

[Tegu8788]

Humans do well for pretty much everything. Dragonborn and Dwarf are both very solid choices for the Fighter.

[GPuzzle]

A Fighter has two schools of thought when it comes to defending:

You either make your punishment so painful it'll hurt an awful lot, or you make your punishment so nasty you might just waste an entire turn.

The first generally employs Longswords and the Pit Fighter Paragon Path, while the second employs Hammers and the Kensei Paragon Path.

That doesn't mean you can't combine them. A Fighter with Hammers+Kensei deals a good amount of damage, while a Fighter with Longswords+Pit Fighter uses basic tactics to hamper enemies on top of the vicious damage. Unfortunately, you won't have two very good Dragon Magazine feats - Hindering Shield (whenever you apply forced movement to an enemy, you slow them) and Mobile Challenge (whenever your opponent triggers your Combat Challenge, you shift 1 square after the attack). Try to see if you can get them, and if you do, get World Serpent's Grasp.

Another fun school of thought that is more of a mix is the Spear-wielding one, which uses Spears and Polearm Momentum to prone enemies left and right. You miss on the damage on some of the nastier effects, but it comes online much earlier and can allow you to stay sticky even when you're pushing enemies.

[Tegu8788]

Gpuzzle, for a brand new guy, let's try aiming for things a little lower than Paragon. You do great work for CharOp, but this guy is just starting out. If you want to flex your muscles, I got a new thread I'd love your thoughts on.

But he does raise a good point. Fighters, more than most classes, can be defined by their weapon choice. Hammers, axes, heavy blades, light blades, shield, or spear. In general, you pick what you want to hold, and go with it. Some of your powers get bonuses for using different weapons, and there are great feats for each that require certain minimums in your stats.

[GPuzzle]

Okay, it'll be a weird shot at Controllers. And yes, my thoughts do go a bit out of hand at times. Although most of the stuff I said is actually from Heroic, but nevermind.

[neonchameleon]

This sounds almost exactly like what I want right here. Although how to go about it. Looking at the base races looks like dragon-born dwarf or human would make great starts for this.

OK. 4e fightering for 3.5 players.

As a fighter you are the fastest, meanest, most dangerous bastard around. Others (Barbarians) might hit harder - but you excel at taking advantage of even the slightest opening and gutting the enemy and they know it. Just writing "Fighter" on top of your character sheet in 4e is the equivalent of half a dozen feats in 3.5 devoted to sheer lethal stickiness. Things that make up this stickiness:

1: All characters in 4e get an opportunity attack per turn, not one per round. If 39 goblins try to run past you that's 39 opportunity attacks. (It doesn't get that silly, but you don't need to worry about wasting your opportunity attack). On the other hand you only get OAs on people who leave spaces next to you even if you have a polearm. (Note that only moving and using ranged/area attacks (bows, thrown weapons, spells) trigger OAs - there isn't a huge list of actions to worry about.

2: As the fighter you're the master of opportunity attacks. First you get your wisdom bonus as a bonus to hit. Second, if you hit someone with an OA they stop moving. They do not pass go. Or even pass you. They aren't stupid enough to run right up your blade, so they stop cold. Both these are fighter bonusses.

So the enemy can't get past you by normal means. To continue.

3: When you attack someone you get right in their face. You mark them (as in basketball) until the end of your next turn or until you hand off to another defender. And because you're big, imposing, and getting at them they take -2 to attacks that don't include you (a dragon is free to breathe fire on you and everyone else - but if it tries to bite the wizard it takes that -2).

4: When you're in someone's face you're fast enough to take advantage of opportunities other people would miss. 1/round you get a free swing if either (a) they attack someone else but not you (the dragon trying to bite the wizard) or they try to shift (5 ft step) away.

In short if they try to move past you you get to chop them up and stop them moving. If they try to run away from you you get to chop them up and stop them right where they are. If they try to creep away you get a free swing If they try to attack someone else you get a free swing and they take a penalty to the attack roll. And if they stand there trying to beat you down, you're wearing steel armour and are pretty tough. It's their choice - but none of the choices are good ones.

So that's the core of the fighter's stickiness.

Skills - you're trained in three skills out of seventeen. Being trained in a skill adds a flat +5, and climb, jump, and swim are all part of the athletics skill. So you've quite a lot of all round competence.

Feats - you know what these are.

Powers. They are called at will, encounter, and daily powers - but I prefer to call them standard, scene, and episode. So your two at will powers give you two basic things to do in combat that distinguish how you attack from the baseline. An encounter power gives you a signature move - and a daily is something you pace yourself for and bring out when the chips are down.

Healing surges are something that's terribly explained by the rules. The best way I find of thinking about them is to think about a boxing match. You can knock someone down so they are being counted without utterly taking away their hit points. Healing Surges represent your long term endurance - but you need something to convert them to hit points you can use right now. Normally a short rest, bandages, and a bite to eat or some water. Also once per scene you can convert one by taking a breather (your second wind) - and you can be inspired to dig deep by a leader. The only actually magical healing is anything that restores your hit points without you spending a healing surge. You behave like an action movie hero this way. Beaten up, but with time to bandage yourself you can press on. Until you're ready to drop.

[VeliciaL]

Just wanted to point out, if you like striker and controller, both rogue and warlock are strikers with a strong controller secondary.

If you're coming from 3.5 I think I'd recommend the fighter though, simply because it highlights one of the better improvements 4e has over 3.5, IMHO.

[georgie_leech]

Just wanted to point out, if you like striker and controller, both rogue and warlock are strikers with a strong controller secondary.

If you're coming from 3.5 I think I'd recommend the fighter though, simply because it highlights one of the better improvements 4e has over 3.5, IMHO.

Fighters do also make a good compromise though; Fighter takes the Defender role and really emphasises how a Defender acts like a mini-controller, and it's also the most Striker-y of the Defenders, having good damage attacks and a penchant for big weapons.

[VeliciaL]

Fighters do also make a good compromise though; Fighter takes the Defender role and really emphasises how a Defender acts like a mini-controller, and it's also the most Striker-y of the Defenders, having good damage attacks and a penchant for big weapons.

Good point. Defenders are practically melee-based mini-controllers anyway. Good ones at least.