New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 351
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.
    I meant by my comment that I think the comic would be less than it is without that 'filler' by whatever definition you give it. The five cited filler comics were not necessary and didn't drive the plot, but they were essential to making the comic what it is: a light-hearted romp through The Giant's playground.

    Sure, the story is getting better as we see deeper and richer plot and character developments, but I hope Rich doesn't abandon the idea of fun for the sake of fun. And that's what the 'filler' material was.

    If I got a vote, I'd vote for having another 'Questions' page, and preferably right in the middle of a deeply intense plot point. I'd advocate we see a side-quest full of silliness, just to remind us that, hey, it's a freakin' comic, not Lord Of The Rings.

    Hmm, the Mechane needs repairs, so it may be a perfect time to side-quest for something silly, like a Ring of Jeans Summoning.

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    At this point, any comic that doesn't involve characters shouting the names of their D&D abilities at each other will be accused of being filler.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Again, missing my point. Durkon clearly internalized it, that was the whole point of the latest strip, but Durkon's Mother did not regularly repeat the lesson. Had it been something she repeated at the end of every week when he tried to help, he would have quickly realized how much it affected him, because he had so much outright exposure to the lesson.
    We don't know if Sidgi repeated the lesson or not. But I get your point. You believe that if the lesson was repeated, then Durkon would have recognized it sooner because... the lesson was repeated.

    But, it doesn't matter if the lesson was said once, repeated or just reinforced. Neither scenario won't change the fact that the lesson sunk it or the impact it had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think you and I have a different definition of "scream". She didn't even appear to raise her voice. And given that Durkon's expressed motivations for helping her were that he had two arms to carry dishes with, it is still absolutely an appropriate thing to say to get him to stop and to show that his "help" is absolutely unappreciated.

    edit: for that matter, she did tell him to let go before saying that she wasn't helpless.
    You are correct. She did say 'Let go!' With an exclamation point (which is often used to show strong feeling or an increase in volume). But it is nitpicking, and it doesn't change the words that followed.


    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Have you met Roy? This guy. Right here. Y'know, him. And again. Plus one.

    Dude would absolutely get eaten alive on purpose if he believed there was a tactical advantage to it.
    "New party rule: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume that you should do something about that”


    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    That Durkon is so blessedly Lawful that he might have taken that advice to an unhealhty degree is, I would wager, on Durkon not Sigdi.
    There are other characters who are even more lawful than Durkon, but I doubt they would take Sigdi's advice to any unhealthy extremes. Lawful != Dumb.

    Now, if you meant to imply Durkon fail to recognize that her advice doesn't apply in all situations based on who he is then you need to ask how he become that way? Thor did not slap this personality on him when he was growing up. Nor did Durkon wake up and said “I'm going to be so lawful that I'll take my mother's advice to unhealthy extremes”. It developed over his lifetime by everything around him. Including the biggest influence of them all: mommy.

    Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.

    I also don't agree with the 'he's so lawful' argument because I re-examined the instances where Durkon was assertive in the comic. There were all the times he healed people without being asked, the Cliffport Battle with the Treants, rescuing Lein at the Azurite docks. Heck, he told Haley that she needed to be assertive and keep herself together when Roy died.

    This is the blessedly lawful Durkon that we come to know during the comics. His passiveness during V's meltdown is the only noteworthy exception (that I can think of), but for the most part, he's not the person who needed to ask, and ask again (just to make sure it's okay) before helping people. Now that I understand this, I feel that I should give credit to the excellent parent in the strip.



    When Durkon was indecisive during the frog battle, Roy worked with him and helped him to become a more assertive team mate. Roy corrected Sigdi's mistake and taught Durkon that sometimes, you can't always wait until somebody asks for help. Something that wouldn't be possible if Durkon's alignment turned him into a lost cause.

    I think it's wrong to blame a character's fatal flaw on their alignment. Saying that Durkon is too crippling passive because he's lawful is like saying Haley's trust issue stem from her being chaotic. That's just a cop-out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Now when it comes to her saying "I'm not helpless" I think we're really entering the realm of nitpicking here. Especially as by that point, Durkon was literally grabbing them out of her hands. There simply isn't time to construct a 'reasonable warning'.

    Besides, I fail to see what is so wrong about that sentence in the first place. While trying to stay out of Real Life discussion, I think, and I can say this from some second hand personal experience, that having a healthy ego is pretty darn important to a person in Sigdi's situation.

    Saying that she's not helpless is in fact probably a positive from where I am sitting, not a negative. If only for self-confidence reasons.
    It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

    But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

    But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

    But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Still, as I said, she pivoted extremely quickly from a inward comment (I'm not helpless) toward an outward one (It's all right, you just wanted to help). If we're gonna get into analyzing character I'd say that says a heck of a lot more about her than anything else.
    The thing is, if we're going to analyze a character, then we need to look at everything.

    A good writer once said, “You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are.“ The fact that she used these words when there was no time to construct a proper warning means that this is the first thought that crossed her mind, and the possibility that Durkon could get hurt or the dishes could break are thoughts that needed to be construct.

    The fact that she composed herself to reassure her son. Well, I won't say that it's not important. I think it shows us the person Sigdi wants to be. She wants to be a good mother (I will buy that), but she has her inner demons. And they interfere with that goal.

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Smolder View Post
    At this point, any comic that doesn't involve characters shouting the names of their D&D abilities at each other will be accused of being filler.
    Any comic that is not about the main characters and the main quest is filler. So unless it has Baron Pineapple or Frudu and the Ming, then it's filler.

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    *not gonna address the rest because I sense we're already starting to enter the territory of arguing around in circles*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.
    I disagree. 'Crippled' is FAR too strong of a word. Especially since, IMO, Durkon turned out to be a pretty good person.

    If we're going to blame Sidgi for Durkon occassionally being too cautious (and, if you haven't guessed, I don't [or rather, it's not a 'blame' thing with me]), then we also have to credit her with how well Durkon turned out in other areas.

    See, the whole problem I have with all of this goes back to your opening salvo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    I think this is an example of his mother's bad advice and poor parenting.
    I see nothing in strip 963 as 'poor parenting'. In fact I maintain it is EXCELLENT parenting. Might have had unforeseen consequences, but, eh. We'll find out in the fullness of time.

    I realize you disagree. Fair enuf.

    Adding in things like "scaring" (seriously... scaring?) is simply too much. It should be reserved for people (at best) like Eugene or (at worst) Tarquin. In fact, doing a compare and contrast I think would go a pretty darn long way as to who is 'supposed' to be seen as a 'bad' parent in the strip by the narrative.

    Call me crazy, but I have seen nothing, and I do mean nothing, that would suggest that Sidgi was a 'bad' or 'poor' parent. She's not perfect. She's not a parent who could see all ends. But since when do those exist?

    Now in the future maybe we'll see more of Sidgi that will change my mind and move me closer to your camp. It's possible. But now? Right now? I think you are putting way too much weight on what is pretty much just showing how parts of Durkon's personality were shaped.

    Finally, if Durkon had actually shown some level of being upset at his mother's advice in retrospect, or upset at how his mother treated him at any point in the narrative, then I'd agree that we'd have more fuel for the 'poor/bad parent' argument. But, again, so far at least it's been the exact opposite.

    You might not like the advice that Durkon was given. That doesn't make it bad parenting though.

    tl;dr: If we're gonna take Sidgi to task for Durkon's 'negative' qualities, we also have to credit her for Durkon's 'positive' ones. Besides, I don't feel we should consider Sidgi a bad parent until, you know, Durkon starts thinking/saying she was a bad parent. After all, he's probably in the best position to judge of all of us.

    ...

    Besides Rich that is.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2014-10-02 at 07:42 PM.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
    Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
    Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
    Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes


    __________________________

    No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I see nothing in strip 963 as 'poor parenting'. In fact I maintain it is EXCELLENT parenting. Might have had unforeseen consequences, but, eh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    but, eh.
    The unforeseen consequence is that a man could have died when Durkon had the ability to prevent that. I believe Sidgi should have foreseen this. She's an ex-sergeant, so she's no stranger to combat. She acted on instinct when she saved the miner from falling to said and it's what anyone would have done. If this wasn't her background, then I might be less critical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Besides, I don't feel we should consider Sidgi a bad parent until, you know, Durkon starts thinking/saying she was a bad parent. After all, he's probably in the best position to judge of all of us.
    I do not believe that my opinions, feeling or thoughts should be based on the say-so of another character. That leads itself to the appealing to authority fallacy. I rather draw conclusions based on my observations from what I see in the comic. The purpose of good art is to make us think, not to be told what to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    If we're gonna take Sidgi to task for Durkon's 'negative' qualities, we also have to credit her for Durkon's 'positive' ones.
    Nope. Sidgi should only get credit the positive/negative qualities that she had a hand in shaping. Would you give Tarquin credit for Elan's positive qualities?

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    The unforeseen consequence is that a man could have died when Durkon had the ability to prevent that. I believe Sidgi should have foreseen this. She's an ex-sergeant, so she's no stranger to combat. She acted on instinct when she saved the miner from falling to said and it's what anyone would have done. If this wasn't her background, then I might be less critical.
    So youre saying that she should have predicted that Durkon would take the lesson in so deeply that he was still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on? Yeah, im pretty sure she cant be faulted for not predicting that. Now, maybe if Durkon had shown signs for the rest of his life with her that he was taking it literally, but based on what we know now she cant be blamed.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Would you give Tarquin credit for Elan's positive qualities?
    Since Tarquin and Elan barely had any interaction, no. No I wouldn't. But since it seems that Sigdi was central to shaping Durkon's worldview, yes, I am going to presume that she had a hand in shaping them.

    Why wouldn't I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So youre saying that she should have predicted that Durkon would take the lesson in so deeply that he was still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on? Yeah, im pretty sure she cant be faulted for not predicting that. Now, maybe if Durkon had shown signs for the rest of his life with her that he was taking it literally, but based on what we know now she cant be blamed.
    Let's not forget that Durkon was ticketed for life in the priesthood. He didn't become an adventurer until he was booted out of the Dwarven lands.

    It's perhaps possible (and now I am most certainly specualting on next to no evidence) that she tried to steer him away from the violent life of a soldier/adventurer and toward something more peaceful. Yet still very Dwareven. If so, this sort of life lesson might not be out of place.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2014-10-02 at 09:16 PM.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
    Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
    Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
    Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes


    __________________________

    No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Anywhere but real life.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

    But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

    But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

    But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.

    (sic)

    The fact that she composed herself to reassure her son. Well, I won't say that it's not important. I think it shows us the person Sigdi wants to be. She wants to be a good mother (I will buy that), but she has her inner demons. And they interfere with that goal.
    I can't help but notice nobody seems to be addressing this part of Pyron's argument. I won't either--in fact I quite agree with the portion of it that I've quoted here. Is it just me or is it a commonplace tactic on this forum for anyone arguing against someone to completely gloss over significant swathes of someone's argument without even acknowledging that they are a portion of said argument? This is far from the first time I've seen something like that.
    It doesn't matter what you CAN do--it matters what you WILL do.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lheticus View Post
    I can't help but notice nobody seems to be addressing this part of Pyron's argument. I won't either--in fact I quite agree with the portion of it that I've quoted here. Is it just me or is it a commonplace tactic on this forum for anyone arguing against someone to completely gloss over significant swathes of someone's argument without even acknowledging that they are a portion of said argument? This is far from the first time I've seen something like that.
    I'm not addressing it because I felt I already had (at least to my mind). And I dislike repeating myself over and over again.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2014-10-02 at 09:17 PM.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
    Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
    Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
    Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes


    __________________________

    No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I'm not addressing it because I felt I already had (at least to my mind). And I dislike repeating myself over and over again.
    Also, long posts require long replies, which in turn get longer replies. Aint nobody got time for that.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So youre saying that she should have predicted that Durkon would take the lesson in so deeply that he was still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on?
    Yes. Because "still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on" implies that he's suppose to figure it out on his own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Since Tarquin and Elan barely had any interaction, no. No I wouldn't. But since it seems that Sigdi was central to shaping Durkon's worldview, yes, I am going to presume that she had a hand in shaping them.

    Why wouldn't I?
    Because she isn't the only one who shaped Durkon's positive traits (this is what we're talking about, not worldview). There are plenty of traits that are credited to Roy's influence and guidance (which I pointed out).

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Let's not forget that Durkon was ticketed for life in the priesthood. He didn't become an adventurer until he was booted out of the Dwarven lands.
    Let's not forget it's their belief that death in combat is the greatest thing a dwarf can be praised for. This makes up Durkon's worldview. Who did you say was central to shaping his worldview agian?

    And life is not always peaceful at home. Plus, that heirloom hammer and shield? Somebody gave it to him.


    EDIT: If you want to claim that Sidgi was central to shaping Durkon's worldview then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    That Durkon is so blessedly Lawful that he might have taken that advice to an unhealhty degree is, I would wager, on Durkon not Sigdi.
    This is also on Sidgi
    Last edited by Pyron; 2014-10-03 at 12:40 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not going to add another wall of text, but put me down for 'Poor parenting? Huh? I think you're reading too much into it there.' crowd.

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Regarding Sigdi's parenting in this strip:

    Little Durkon wasn't helping. He was getting in the way and actually hindering the cleanup effort.

    Little Durkon grabbed the dishes Sigdi was already holding. He did not pick up the dishes left on the table (which would have been helping). He did not grab *more* dishes than Sigdi already could (which also would have been helping).

    Little Durkon assumed he could do it better than his mom for no reason except that he had two arms. He did not consider that his mother was more experienced in taking care of the dishes, nor that she was older (and bigger, with a longer arm), raising the very likely possibility that even with one arm she could still do the job better than he could have done with two. In other words he reduced her, in this instance to her disability, and assumed (erroneously) he was superior to her solely because of her disability.

    So little Durkon was WRONG. He offered help that was not wanted. He offered help for the wrong reason. And what he offered was the wrong kind of help that was not actually help at all.

    Sigdi was right to scold him. This is *good* parenting. Her words may not have been perfectly chosen, but there is no such thing as a perfect parent in that or this or any world.

    Also, the lesson she taught him "but you should not help without asking first, you might make things worse if you do" is a CORRECT lesson to teach. And it was CORRECT even in the situation with Roy and the frog. Durkon's mistake in that situation was not that he applied this lesson to it, but that he failed to realize that the lesson had ALREADY been applied. When he and Roy agreed to join each other and become an adventuring team, that act constituted the mutual "ask for help and agree to receive help" moment (indeed that's really the implicit meaning of agreeing to BE a "partner" to another person.) And that "contract" if you will, extends throughout the duration of the time that they would be adventuring partners. Durkon's mistake in that case was a failure to recognize the social dynamics of the situation and failing to realize that his mother's lesson had already been applied.
    Last edited by Amphiox; 2014-10-03 at 01:48 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    We don't know if Sidgi repeated the lesson or not. But I get your point. You believe that if the lesson was repeated, then Durkon would have recognized it sooner because... the lesson was repeated.

    But, it doesn't matter if the lesson was said once, repeated or just reinforced. Neither scenario won't change the fact that the lesson sunk it or the impact it had.
    If she said it once, then never saw the negative impact it was having, then it's a mistake borne of ignorance. That is far less damning than a mistake borne of pride. So yes, it does matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    "New party rule: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume that you should do something about that”
    Given the people involved and the world in which they live, it was reasonable of Durkon to assume Roy had gotten himself eaten on purpose. It was wrong, but still reasonable. Roy recognizes that, why don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    There are other characters who are even more lawful than Durkon
    Like who? I can't think of any offhand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Lawful != Dumb.
    Lawful != Smart, either. Durkon has a lot of positive qualities, but a high intelligence score is not among them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Now, if you meant to imply Durkon fail to recognize that her advice doesn't apply in all situations based on who he is then you need to ask how he become that way? Thor did not slap this personality on him when he was growing up. Nor did Durkon wake up and said “I'm going to be so lawful that I'll take my mother's advice to unhealthy extremes”. It developed over his lifetime by everything around him. Including the biggest influence of them all: mommy.
    Children, even newborns, have distinct personalities. Environment is not everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.
    Crippled is far too strong a word. Being on the hook for one mistake(or a handful of mistakes) is not being a poor parent. A big part of the problem here is that you are blowing several things way out of proportion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    I also don't agree with the 'he's so lawful' argument because I re-examined the instances where Durkon was assertive in the comic. There were all the times he healed people without being asked, the Cliffport Battle with the Treants, rescuing Lein at the Azurite docks. Heck, he told Haley that she needed to be assertive and keep herself together when Roy died.

    This is the blessedly lawful Durkon that we come to know during the comics. His passiveness during V's meltdown is the only noteworthy exception (that I can think of), but for the most part, he's not the person who needed to ask, and ask again (just to make sure it's okay) before helping people. Now that I understand this, I feel that I should give credit to the excellent parent in the strip.



    When Durkon was indecisive during the frog battle, Roy worked with him and helped him to become a more assertive team mate. Roy corrected Sigdi's mistake and taught Durkon that sometimes, you can't always wait until somebody asks for help. Something that wouldn't be possible if Durkon's alignment turned him into a lost cause.

    I think it's wrong to blame a character's fatal flaw on their alignment. Saying that Durkon is too crippling passive because he's lawful is like saying Haley's trust issue stem from her being chaotic. That's just a cop-out.
    The issue about "he's so Lawful" comes back to different children having different personalities. The exact same behavior on Sigdi's part would have had a different effect on a different child. Expecting her to see the future is unreasonable.

    Roy was able to correct Durkon's behavior because he's the one who saw the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

    But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

    But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

    But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.
    Excessive self-confidence is also a problem; look at Nale. Not being able to precisely gauge where Durkon's self-confidence is vs. where it should be is normal parenting, not poor parenting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware).
    And do what with it? Put it in the sink? The sink where she needs to put the other dishes? That's a recipe for a traffic jam.

    This statement, combined with your "where did he get his personality" above, makes me think you haven't spent much time around small children. Have you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    The thing is, if we're going to analyze a character, then we need to look at everything.

    A good writer once said, “You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are.“ The fact that she used these words when there was no time to construct a proper warning means that this is the first thought that crossed her mind, and the possibility that Durkon could get hurt or the dishes could break are thoughts that needed to be construct.

    The fact that she composed herself to reassure her son. Well, I won't say that it's not important. I think it shows us the person Sigdi wants to be. She wants to be a good mother (I will buy that), but she has her inner demons. And they interfere with that goal.
    Let's indeed look at everything, including times when Sigdi is under stress. For example, while she was saving that worker's life. If she's so outrageously proud that she can't accept help, as you have been insisting, why did she accept help in pulling him up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    I do not believe that my opinions, feeling or thoughts should be based on the say-so of another character. That leads itself to the appealing to authority fallacy. I rather draw conclusions based on my observations from what I see in the comic. The purpose of good art is to make us think, not to be told what to think.
    That fallacy is more properly called the appeal to inappropriate authority. It is not fallacious to take a doctor's advice on a medical issue, or to trust a geologist's analysis of a rock. The fallacy occurs when one trusts a doctor's analysis of a rock.

    Durkon is in a better position to analyze Sigdi's parenting than most. Accepting his judgement on how good a parent she is isn't a fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Nope. Sidgi should only get credit the positive/negative qualities that she had a hand in shaping.
    In your previous post, you argued that everything about Durkon's personality was due to "...everything around him. Including the biggest influence of all: mommy." Why is it that you're drastically narrowing the scope of her influence now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Let's not forget it's their belief that death in combat is the greatest thing a dwarf can be praised for. This makes up Durkon's worldview.
    And is also another good reason for Durkon not to help. If someone is actively trying to score an honorable death and you jump in and save them, then you have indeed just made things worse.

  16. - Top - End - #256
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Here.
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Regarding Sigdi's parenting in this strip:

    Little Durkon wasn't helping. He was getting in the way and actually hindering the cleanup effort.

    Little Durkon grabbed the dishes Sigdi was already holding. He did not pick up the dishes left on the table (which would have been helping). He did not grab *more* dishes than Sigdi already could (which also would have been helping).

    Little Durkon assumed he could do it better than his mom for no reason except that he had two arms. He did not consider that his mother was more experienced in taking care of the dishes, nor that she was older (and bigger, with a longer arm), raising the very likely possibility that even with one arm she could still do the job better than he could have done with two. In other words he reduced her, in this instance to her disability, and assumed (erroneously) he was superior to her solely because of her disability.

    So little Durkon was WRONG. He offered help that was not wanted. He offered help for the wrong reason. And what he offered was the wrong kind of help that was not actually help at all.

    Sigdi was right to scold him. This is *good* parenting. Her words may not have been perfectly chosen, but there is no such thing as a perfect parent in that or this or any world.

    Also, the lesson she taught him "but you should not help without asking first, you might make things worse if you do" is a CORRECT lesson to teach. And it was CORRECT even in the situation with Roy and the frog. Durkon's mistake in that situation was not that he applied this lesson to it, but that he failed to realize that the lesson had ALREADY been applied. When he and Roy agreed to join each other and become an adventuring team, that act constituted the mutual "ask for help and agree to receive help" moment (indeed that's really the implicit meaning of agreeing to BE a "partner" to another person.) And that "contract" if you will, extends throughout the duration of the time that they would be adventuring partners. Durkon's mistake in that case was a failure to recognize the social dynamics of the situation and failing to realize that his mother's lesson had already been applied.
    Hear freaking hear.

    "Don't help without asking" is a completely reasonable lesson, especially for Sidgi's kid. A lot of disabled people can be screwed over by well-meaning bystanders trying to help without asking first, and for the child of a one-armed parent, "don't help without asking" - or, phrased differently, "if it seems like someone needs help, ask them what they need" - is a completely reasonable lesson that stops stuff like "I know you're deaf, so I'm going to help out by speaking much slower than usual. Oh, sorry, that completely messes up your lipreading? I had no idea" from happening. For the vast majority of social situations, "don't help without asking" is a completely reasonable lesson. The fact that Durkon continued to apply it in the like .1% of situations where it's kind of a silly thing to do is a fairly unforseeable outcome.

    I mean, I know this isn't an exact analogy, but if Sidgi had told Durkon that he should always knock before entering a room because the person inside might not be decent or want to be disturbed, and Durkon, upon hearing shouts of fear inside a room, stopped to knock first, would we say that Sidgi's lesson was inappropriate, or would we assume that Durkon may have taken a reasonable 99%-of-the-time lesson a bit too literally?
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2014-10-03 at 02:50 AM.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
    Can't find the strip you're looking for? Head on over to OOTS Strip Summaries!

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Now, if you meant to imply Durkon fail to recognize that her advice doesn't apply in all situations based on who he is then you need to ask how he become that way? Thor did not slap this personality on him when he was growing up. Nor did Durkon wake up and said “I'm going to be so lawful that I'll take my mother's advice to unhealthy extremes”. It developed over his lifetime by everything around him. Including the biggest influence of them all: mommy.

    Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.
    Durkon took the advice way more to heart than he should have, that's hardly Sigdi's fault. All that's indicative of is the lines of communication being imperfect, and Durkon's temperment combined with what he happens to internalize producing a problem. Heck, it's due to a small child trying to understand the nuances of a social standard; that's the sort of thing where imperfect communication is effectively guaranteed. That doesn't make it bad parenting.

    Durkon was having a problem, Sigdi responded with compassion and used the opportunity to teach Durkon. Yes, it got internalized poorly. Sigdi is not a perfect communicator able to predict the exact effect of everything she says for decades down the line, operating with imperfect information and a serious time pressure in responding. That's not a character flaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

    But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

    But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

    But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.
    Durkon's help was in the process of making things harder. Sigdi then gently tried to rebuff him several times, he grabbed the dishes anyways, and they broke. The "I'm not helpless" was just a way of saying that she had things under control, and that Durkon's help wasn't helping. It was a significantly softer way of saying it than just flat out stating that Durkon was being unhelpful.

    As for the characterization of "sacrificing Durkon's self-confidence for the sake of her ego" - I consider it absurd. Durkon's self confidence wasn't sacrificed at all. Not only is it likely not that fragile to begin with, Sigdi explicitly told Durkon that he was a good person operating off a good instinct. Had she attributed Durkon's actions to malice and chewed him out for breaking the dishes, then I might consider "sacrificing Durkon's self-confidence for the sake of her ego" a reasonable reading. As is? No way, no how.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Skyron, Andromeda
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    I'm not going to add another wall of text, but put me down for 'Poor parenting? Huh? I think you're reading too much into it there.' crowd.
    I agree. Looking at Sigdi raising her voice and reprimanding Durkon for getting in the way when she told him not to and seeing her as not a good mother and having "inner demons" is a thought process that baffles me.


    Peelee’s Lotsey

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Regarding Sigdi's parenting in this strip:

    Little Durkon wasn't helping. He was getting in the way and actually hindering the cleanup effort.

    Little Durkon grabbed the dishes Sigdi was already holding. He did not pick up the dishes left on the table (which would have been helping). He did not grab *more* dishes than Sigdi already could (which also would have been helping).

    Little Durkon assumed he could do it better than his mom for no reason except that he had two arms. He did not consider that his mother was more experienced in taking care of the dishes, nor that she was older (and bigger, with a longer arm), raising the very likely possibility that even with one arm she could still do the job better than he could have done with two. In other words he reduced her, in this instance to her disability, and assumed (erroneously) he was superior to her solely because of her disability.

    So little Durkon was WRONG. He offered help that was not wanted. He offered help for the wrong reason. And what he offered was the wrong kind of help that was not actually help at all.

    Sigdi was right to scold him. This is *good* parenting. Her words may not have been perfectly chosen, but there is no such thing as a perfect parent in that or this or any world.
    I'd also add that all that scene, is perfectly plausible. Both the "unrequested help" and the reaction: I saw similar thing happen in real life, and the simple fact that (after the scolding) the mother explained the thing to her son, was exactly the right thing to do.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  20. - Top - End - #260

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Because she isn't the only one who shaped Durkon's positive traits (this is what we're talking about, not worldview). There are plenty of traits that are credited to Roy's influence and guidance (which I pointed out).
    I think it's likely that Sigdi probably shaped at least 80-90% of Durkon's positive traits, due to fact that she was his mother and probably the person he was closest to during his formative years. And out of that 10-20%, probably only 5% at most, can be attributed to Roy. After all, so far Durkon has had the most number of family members or friends shown that could have had a positive effect on his development.

  21. - Top - End - #261
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OoTLink's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    I feel like we're going to spend a year on Durkon's flashbacks at this rate -_-
    Thanks asdf for the 90% Link 10% Alex avatar!

  22. - Top - End - #262
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Skyron, Andromeda
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OoTLink View Post
    I feel like we're going to spend a year on Durkon's flashbacks at this rate -_-
    Probably longer, since we'll be seeing the High Priest of Hel throughout 2015. I don't really mind that myself.


    Peelee’s Lotsey

  23. - Top - End - #263
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Probably longer, since we'll be seeing the High Priest of Hel throughout 2015. I don't really mind that myself.
    I don't mind the flashbacks, but right now Durkon/HPoH are the only characters getting any sort of significant attention. Everyone else in the order has gotten one or two pages of attention, and while were kept aware of what is going on, they really have faded into the background.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't mind the flashbacks, but right now Durkon/HPoH are the only characters getting any sort of significant attention. Everyone else in the order has gotten one or two pages of attention, and while were kept aware of what is going on, they really have faded into the background.
    That will have to go on for a long time before Durkon catches up with everyone else in total amount of story-focus.

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    That will have to go on for a long time before Durkon catches up with everyone else in total amount of story-focus.
    Unless there is some sort of equal-story-focus law im unaware of, I don't believe Rich needs to compensate for Durkon's lack of focus outside of what the story mandates is necessary for us to see to understand it properly. If Rich thinks that its necessary for us to see this, fine, ill sit down and shut up. He knows where the story is going better than I do. But if hes just putting it in there to shine some light on Durkon for the sake of shining some light, I wish he would find a better way to do it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  26. - Top - End - #266
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Gamgee
    It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end… because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing… this shadow. Even darkness must pass.
    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
    I assume the comic won't end with Durkon permanently vampirized. He may die, or he may be saved, but before the end something will happen. Rich is setting us up for that. Give the man a little room to work.

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Angelalex242's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Let's hope he's not using Tolkien as a base...one of the key features of Tolkien's world is that it deteriorates a little more with every passing year. All the cool kids lived a long time ago, and the people today are pale shadows of them.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Let's hope he's not using Tolkien as a base...one of the key features of Tolkien's world is that it deteriorates a little more with every passing year. All the cool kids lived a long time ago, and the people today are pale shadows of them.
    Deteriorates isn't the right word, really. Changes would be better. All the cool people did live a long time ago, but so did all the really nasty people. The elves leave not because Middle Earth is growing worse over time, but because they, for lack of a better description, did everything they were meant to do there. They've been working hard all their lives, and now they want to go on and retire for a while.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Unless there is some sort of equal-story-focus law im unaware of, I don't believe Rich needs to compensate for Durkon's lack of focus outside of what the story mandates is necessary for us to see to understand it properly. If Rich thinks that its necessary for us to see this, fine, ill sit down and shut up. He knows where the story is going better than I do. But if hes just putting it in there to shine some light on Durkon for the sake of shining some light, I wish he would find a better way to do it.
    If you don't believe he needs to compensate for Durkon's lack of focus at other times, why complain about the other characters' lack of focus now?

    I wasn't responded to some hypothetical "equal-story-focus law" from Rich. I was responding the the one you proposed. You wrote, "right now Durkon/HPoH are the only characters getting any sort of significant attention. Everyone else in the order has gotten one or two pages of attention, and while were kept aware of what is going on, they really have faded into the background." That's the only "equal-story-focus law" under discussion. I merely pointed out the unfairness of getting upset when the character with the least story focus up to now finally gets the spotlight for a moment.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2014-10-04 at 08:45 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OoTLink View Post
    I feel like we're going to spend a year on Durkon's flashbacks at this rate -_-
    You really think we'll have 12 more strips on flashbacks?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •