"Tippyverse" tipping points and notable events

[Vogonjeltz]

Why does everyone always forget that Launch (Gargantuan) Bolt is a lv 0 spell?

Well, it doesn't work for one thing.

1) The spell works as if you had fired a bolt from a light crossbow.
2) Firing a light crossbow can be done one-handed as a medium weapon.
3) Each size category increase also increases the difficulty of wielding by one step.
4) So a Large Light Crossbow requires two hands and a Huge or larger can not be used at all. Gargantuan being one step higher than Huge means it's well outside the ability of a medium-sized creature to fire with Launch Bolt.

The most spectacular magic would probably be teleport, but given the severe limitations on uses per day, even that is only so so as it is hardly much better than taking a plane or car (and once you need to go further than a few hundred miles it's basically useless to most people). The failure rate and margin of error is also disturbingly high (even a 1% chance of dying when trying to go places you know well is insanely dangerous. Take 300 teleportation trips per year and you're likely to have died at least 3 times!)

[Lightlawbliss]

The knock spell would greatly reduce the reliance on locks. Big complex safe with the worlds best lock? Oh look, it's open.

[Telok]

Permanent or At-Will Unseen Servant via Craft Wonderous Item.

Given the non-perishable nature or magic items the world's need for unskilled labor will steadily diminish. Massive social and economic changes that I certanly can't predict beginning almost immedately.

[Endarire]

Bronk: Thanks for being so inspirational with your post - the notion that some day, magic suddenly emerged and those with magic had power. Those without had to catch up.

This is inspiration for my campaign, The Metaphysical Revolution. The Tippyverse seemed so logical to me, and I wanted to make a campaign around the notion of industrialized magic. So there.

[Red Rubber Band]

Spoiler: Phelix-Mu

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And a couple questions for the OP:

- Do you mean faux-medieval, as per the basic D&D setting, or do you mean a normal, more IRL, medieval human society? I was a bit unclear, perhaps because a few other threads recently dealt with magic introduced into a normal-world setting.

- There is a rule in D&D that says things that the rules don't cover operate as they do in real life. Does this include economics? I personally don't know if the RAW ever suggests that listed prices are static, and in a world without magic v one with magic, some prices clearly would need to change (or at least prices be invented for new stuff as it comes online). But, if the listed price for an everburning torch is as listed, then no one would ever buy one, because almost no one had that kind of money in a real-life medieval setting (and certainly wouldn't blow it on a nightlight if they did). So, basically, how realistically does the economy function prior to the emergence of magic, and do you want to consider economic forces afterward, or just go with static prices (and the exploits they invite)?

Basic D&D setting.

EzBake economics. Handwavium most of it (book price ftw) then do case by case when the PCs try to sell (a) expensive stuff, or (b) everything that's not bolted down.
Have very, very general rules for price adjustments based on demand for particular items of an area.

Spoiler: icefractal

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An important thing to determine is what you mean by "the actual medieval world, plus spells". For example, if it's the actual world, then there aren't orcs, elves, war trolls, etc - which means that the whole Polymorph line is a lot less useful, among other things.

But more importantly - are there are other planes? If the entire set of D&D planes exist, then the huge tipping point, that probably overshadows everything before and after it, is when people get Lesser Planar Binding and start getting knowledge/stuff/invasions from other planes. If not, then a whole bunch of spells are significantly different / nonfunctional.

Also - in this kind of setting, the actual components that magic items are made from become important. In a typical setting, you can say that:
A) There are "a bunch" of dragon scales, magical plants, god dust, etc. out there, so we can abstract it.
B) You're not going to be ruling the whole world, so paying money for components is a thing that makes sense.

In this setting, those are both wrong (well, the second one after a point). So we actually need to consider - how many magic items worth of components are found in a given country? In the whole world?

D&D setting. Planes and fantastical (non-)humanoid beings included.

Magical components are a good point. It would definitely slow down the process.
Assume that components are a non-issue. But definitely expand upon responses if components of certain spells would be particularly detrimental to the spells' creation/eventual widespread use.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, with those points, three or so thoughts occur:

- No custom items is still a big deal. The book supports new items, and much optimization of stuff like skills and stuff for people without casting relies on custom items of @ will whatever.

- No magical trap exploits. That's also a big deal, as the pricing for traps makes them far and away the biggest bang for the smallest buck. But it's a hyperbolic cheese curve down this road, to the point where at-will wishes become an eventual reality. That is some potent stuff.

- With onset times staggered in this manner, and magic being totally new to the world, there is probably a span of years-to-decades before the more complicated magic items show up. In particular, feat trees like that of Craft Construct, with constructs being fairly non-intuitive to enchant and craft, stand to take significant time to emerge. Thus, shadesteel golems are probably quite a ways off, along with intelligent constructs and such. Stone golems and the like will be significantly earlier, but still probably decades after the spells to create them are known. I don't expect add-ons like Rudimentary Intelligence to be available for even longer, maybe even 2-3 generations.

As to the material components:

- Decide how spell component pouch works. This is relevant due to simulacrum and ice assassin, both of which lead to really aggressive growth curves in the amount of work spellcasters can get done (by essentially cloning themselves to divide the work up). This is potent indeed, and that is the least ambitious use to which they can be put. The real problem is that a caster can make a copy of anyone by reaching into their pouch and grabbing a scrap of that person's hair; it's a costless component, so RAW it's in the pouch. Pure insanity, but there you have it. Note that copies don't have experience points, but can engage in mundane crafting, research, scribing of spells, spellcasting of their own, etc. They just can't do stuff that requires experience (but see the spells themselves for a heaping helping of vagueness).

[Red Rubber Band]

Spoiler: Phelix-Mu

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Well, with those points, three or so thoughts occur:

- No custom items is still a big deal. The book supports new items, and much optimization of stuff like skills and stuff for people without casting relies on custom items of @ will whatever.

- No magical trap exploits. That's also a big deal, as the pricing for traps makes them far and away the biggest bang for the smallest buck. But it's a hyperbolic cheese curve down this road, to the point where at-will wishes become an eventual reality. That is some potent stuff.

- With onset times staggered in this manner, and magic being totally new to the world, there is probably a span of years-to-decades before the more complicated magic items show up. In particular, feat trees like that of Craft Construct, with constructs being fairly non-intuitive to enchant and craft, stand to take significant time to emerge. Thus, shadesteel golems are probably quite a ways off, along with intelligent constructs and such. Stone golems and the like will be significantly earlier, but still probably decades after the spells to create them are known. I don't expect add-ons like Rudimentary Intelligence to be available for even longer, maybe even 2-3 generations.

As to the material components:

- Decide how spell component pouch works. This is relevant due to simulacrum and ice assassin, both of which lead to really aggressive growth curves in the amount of work spellcasters can get done (by essentially cloning themselves to divide the work up). This is potent indeed, and that is the least ambitious use to which they can be put. The real problem is that a caster can make a copy of anyone by reaching into their pouch and grabbing a scrap of that person's hair; it's a costless component, so RAW it's in the pouch. Pure insanity, but there you have it. Note that copies don't have experience points, but can engage in mundane crafting, research, scribing of spells, spellcasting of their own, etc. They just can't do stuff that requires experience (but see the spells themselves for a heaping helping of vagueness).

Very true. Assume custom items are sweet. I'll edit my earlier post to reflect that.

Bring on the traps. With one caveat. Convince me as to when magical traps should come into existence and why that point in time. Keep in mind that I do not wish a trap of a X-spell to come any earlier than a Permanent X-spell is allowed (if no metamagic reducers are used - DMM Clerics can sit this one out for sanity's sake).
A permanent Light source should come into existence before a magical, self-resetting trap of Light does, for example.

I would rule that spell component pouches would not be able to pull out a particular individual's hair out. RAW is amusing but there needs to be a line drawn.
But that would make a big difference to the speed of study and magical growth. Not to mention less savoury applications.

[Eldan]

Amanuensis is actually a cantrip, so we get it at the very first step.

Huh. So it is. I looked it up online, apparently Magic of Faerun had it at level 3, then it went down to 0 in SpC.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wasn't at all implying that those are intrinsically necessary to your experiment, just that similar thought experiments often assume the presence of those factors. I personally like to strike a slightly lower op-level, but mainly just because I am not quite up to Tippy's speed. I still spend hours wondering how best to exploit his city made entirely of ice assassins of warforged psions 20 that were PaO'd into building materials. And I largely come up with not a single way to improve on the concept.

But that is Tippy, after all. There is plenty of room to operate approaching his level and still turn up some interesting stuff.

If spellcasters can easily spread the prevalence of spells being produced per unit time, then the world changes quite rapidly. Ice assassin and such do this, but so do planar binding and the magical traps. Magical traps are great because of their autonomous nature; they require no operator and can be used by anyone that can activate the trigger mechanism (or they can trigger automatically). Basically, this leads to a kind of Star Trek: TNG eventually, where wealth isn't a thing, and everyone can get what they need at the moment by visiting the replicator. Teleportation circles for transporters. Plane shift for warp speed. And don't fight without a ship full of talented casters, because rocket tag is very mundane army-unfriendly.

Magical traps are also borked because they were priced by people that weren't even considering that they would ever be used in this fashion on a large scale. The pricing is insanely cheap, and not really in-line with other items, frankly.

Another spell to watch, though pretty much inferior to magical traps, is energy transformation field (Spell Compendium). It is noteworthy because it can convert one type of energy to another, spamming spells autonomously, and it persists a long time. I typically use a creature with a good Su effect to power them, like dragon breath or the like.

[Red Rubber Band]

Spoiler: Phelix-Mu

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I wasn't at all implying that those are intrinsically necessary to your experiment, just that similar thought experiments often assume the presence of those factors. I personally like to strike a slightly lower op-level, but mainly just because I am not quite up to Tippy's speed. I still spend hours wondering how best to exploit his city made entirely of ice assassins of warforged psions 20 that were PaO'd into building materials. And I largely come up with not a single way to improve on the concept.

But that is Tippy, after all. There is plenty of room to operate approaching his level and still turn up some interesting stuff.

If spellcasters can easily spread the prevalence of spells being produced per unit time, then the world changes quite rapidly. Ice assassin and such do this, but so do planar binding and the magical traps. Magical traps are great because of their autonomous nature; they require no operator and can be used by anyone that can activate the trigger mechanism (or they can trigger automatically). Basically, this leads to a kind of Star Trek: TNG eventually, where wealth isn't a thing, and everyone can get what they need at the moment by visiting the replicator. Teleportation circles for transporters. Plane shift for warp speed. And don't fight without a ship full of talented casters, because rocket tag is very mundane army-unfriendly.

Magical traps are also borked because they were priced by people that weren't even considering that they would ever be used in this fashion on a large scale. The pricing is insanely cheap, and not really in-line with other items, frankly.

Another spell to watch, though pretty much inferior to magical traps, is energy transformation field (Spell Compendium). It is noteworthy because it can convert one type of energy to another, spamming spells autonomously, and it persists a long time. I typically use a creature with a good Su effect to power them, like dragon breath or the like.

Well the eventual goal is to give the players free roam in a Tippy-esque-verse. But I wanted them to experience, and partake in, Intelligent Use of Magic^TM. Maybe even get them to create some ideas of their own.

I realise traps are borked, but there's no reason why they would not come about. I guess my problem will be to then sort out a better an actual pricing list that makes a modicum of sense.

[Bronk]

Bronk: Thanks for being so inspirational with your post - the notion that some day, magic suddenly emerged and those with magic had power. Those without had to catch up.

This is inspiration for my campaign, The Metaphysical Revolution. The Tippyverse seemed so logical to me, and I wanted to make a campaign around the notion of industrialized magic. So there.

I find this deeply cool!