Settings where humans aren't 'The Mario'

[Soras Teva Gee]

Another thing that humans can do and basically no one else: throwing things accurately. Apes can throw, but not with precision. Meanwhile, even little children can accurately hit a target at some distance. A very valuable hunting skill, that.

Have I seen you hit on this before? Or someone else.

And thing is while its definitely useful I'm not sure its distinctive in a way that is you know optional for a sentient species. Basically is throwing things and hitting a distinct ability in and of itself or a natural application of the basic ingredients of intelligence, useful manipulator, and detailed sensory perception?

Or in other words something that would come with the territory automatically.

[LibraryOgre]

Have I seen you hit on this before? Or someone else.

And thing is while its definitely useful I'm not sure its distinctive in a way that is you know optional for a sentient species. Basically is throwing things and hitting a distinct ability in and of itself or a natural application of the basic ingredients of intelligence, useful manipulator, and detailed sensory perception?

Or in other words something that would come with the territory automatically.

Not necessarily. Again, consider the raven or the octopus. Both have intelligence, a useful manipulator, and detailed sensory perception, but can't throw things accurately. Chimps have their arms hung wrong to do it. It's easy to envision species who simply can't throw well or accurately, and it's not unreasonable to imagine scenarios where that lack simply didn't hinder their "climb".

But it also means they're going to be surprised (dare I say, thrown) by grenades, throwing knives, and other forms of violence-chunking we're known for.

[SiuiS]

Have I seen you hit on this before? Or someone else.

And thing is while its definitely useful I'm not sure its distinctive in a way that is you know optional for a sentient species. Basically is throwing things and hitting a distinct ability in and of itself or a natural application of the basic ingredients of intelligence, useful manipulator, and detailed sensory perception?

Or in other words something that would come with the territory automatically.

The basic math behind the proprioception of a good throw, toss or sling is complex and instinctual. Take a half-full gallon bottle, run at a dumpster and I'm to arc the jug over the dumpster walls and in you'll experience a complex mixture of hesitancy, immediacy, guy instinct and logical calculation in a split second (or longer).

That's the same math that goes into trebuchet fire. You calculate that intuitively. That's pretty separate from just intelligence, because it's instinctual (for certain uses of instinct).

[Brother Oni]

Definitely for given values of instinct. I've met people who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a thrown ball.
Small children can amuse themselves for hours by bouncing a ball off a wall, as they're busy learning and understanding the physical nature of thrown objects.

As for coming with the territory, it's worth noting that bows and the atlatl (a device that enables spears to be thrown more efficiently) have only been found in excavations some 100,000 years after the estimated emergence of homo sapiens (some 30-40 thousand years ago). While I admit that could be because we just haven't found any earlier trace because of the degradable nature of the tool (we haven't found any slings anywhere near this old for example), it could also be because they hadn't been invented yet.

In comparison, spears have been around a long time - they found 8 spears with remains of homo heidelbergensis, pre-dating us by a fair margin (~400,000 years ago compared to our estimated emergence of only 160,000 years ago). While earlier humans could have just thrown the spear, I believe the fact that it took them so long to come up with an efficient tool to kill at a distance (either projectile weapons or something to propel a melee weapon) says something about the difficulty of throwing objects accurately.

[Gnoman]

Those spears you linked are throwing spears, not melee weapons. There is even older evidence (500,000 years BP) of the stabbing spear, and some archaeologists believe that such spears date back to pre-Lucy humans. The delay in the Atl-Atl and bow probably had a lot to do with the difficulty of inventing invention itself.

[Xondoure]

But even so, the Turians were about to launch their full strength against the humans after the Liberation of Shangxi, which would have resulted in the human fleets getting utterly crushed at the Hierarchy's hands.

It was only after Humanity entered the galactic stage that they wound up building a fleet capable of rivaling the Turian Hierarchy. And even then, after the humans entered the Council and gained further power in their fleet, the Turians were still the dominant galactic military power.

I realize I'm a few pages removed from this post at this point, but I would like to point out that humanity's military might is actually split between the Alliance and Cerberus. Cerberus which manages to be a threat to the entire galaxy despite being basically on its own (as they at least thought they were fighting the reapers.) An alternate universe without Reapers is probably one in which humanity becomes the dominant force in galactic politics within a few hundred years. That or the Salarians would have hit us with a Genophage.

[Flickerdart]

That or the Salarians would have hit us with a Genophage.

Human science isn't quite where Salarian science is, but it's centuries ahead of where the Krogans are. That, combined with a much better organized society and the fact that humans are a multi-planet species, would make it much more difficult to effectively administer and maintain an effective genophage.

Plus, the Salarians were the ones that uplifted the Krogans in the first place, giving them an existing knowledge base of Krogan physiology. Getting that kind of data on humans would take time - time that the Salarians wouldn't have if humans were already a military power and wrecking stuff left and right.

In order for the genophage to matter, the Salarians would first have to set humanity back to the same place the Krogan were - a single planet species without a fleet to their name, with a population and tech base depleted after centuries of devastating nuclear warfare. The genophage isn't a weapon, it's pest control.

[Ettina]

And BTW, endurance running is not seen in animals, because it requires a tremendous expenditure of precious energies. We used it exactly to overcome the disadvantage in speed (hunting antelopes, for example).

Actually, endurance running is a common tactic among larger canid species, such as wolves, african hunting dogs, etc. Many canids are quite a bit better than humans at endurance running.

What really makes us unique, besides our intelligence, is the following:

* we are the only truly bipedal walking mammals (the only other bipedal mammals hop)
* we have the most dextrous and well-coordinated grasping equipment of any vertebrate
* we are the only animals to use breasts for sexual signalling

[Sith_Happens]

Plus, the Salarians were the ones that uplifted the Krogans in the first place, giving them an existing knowledge base of Krogan physiology. Getting that kind of data on humans would take time - time that the Salarians wouldn't have if humans were already a military power and wrecking stuff left and right.

How do you know they haven't put that time in already? Salarians look an awful lot like classic "gray men" if you squint a bit.

* we are the only animals to use breasts for sexual signalling

Good luck trying to get that one past any editor, though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not necessarily. Again, consider the raven or the octopus. Both have intelligence, a useful manipulator, and detailed sensory perception, but can't throw things accurately. Chimps have their arms hung wrong to do it. It's easy to envision species who simply can't throw well or accurately, and it's not unreasonable to imagine scenarios where that lack simply didn't hinder their "climb".

But it also means they're going to be surprised (dare I say, thrown) by grenades, throwing knives, and other forms of violence-chunking we're known for.

Umm yeah a raven is never going to throw well for much the reason you cite for a chimp, they're bodies won't support it. And beak and a foot is inferior to two hands for everything. Octopus could I guess be better but while tentacles are fine for small details since they have enough of them I'd have to think they lack a lot of leverage especially once those aquatic bodies are on dry land. While I don't know obviously why not I'd be a little surprised if they are capable of hurling at useful velocities.

If no other primates are physically capable of throwing well then I a little doubtful there is any other creature other then use physically capable of doing so. And if you don't have pretty comparable range of motion (and strength!) out of your arms then that would suggest to me problems with ever becoming a civilized species.

I've yet to discover the research that pegs any animal beyond something like toddler level for intelligence... but even supposing sentient birds or cephalopods neither would seem likely to get to even stone age level. How's a bird going to hammer something for example? Pretty much every pre-industrial engineering challenge in history would be vastly more difficult, especially at more primitive the tech levels. Even if you come up with say clever teamwork to work around its a massive economic burden that won't be going away. Given how fluke-ish it seems for us to have left hunter-gatherer stage at all any additional burdens could very well collapse the development of specialists who eventually make agricultural society not totally suck. Which it did for most of the time after its invention. So you need comparable efficiency at the thousands of things humans do without thinking.

While obviously we can't eliminate bias towards ourselves in this manner its only a very narrow range of body types (also have to be land-dwelling) that could create civilizations. Especially if you add the evolutionary engineering to get there. Like a centaur body type should work but I'm not sure a six-legged creature is going to be anywhere near as effective as a four-legged one before you got there.

tl:dr: Elves and/or Rubber Forehead Aliens actually make a lot of sense.

And after all of that, well throwing well is just one of the things humans do what makes it so particular?

The basic math behind the proprioception of a good throw, toss or sling is complex and instinctual. Take a half-full gallon bottle, run at a dumpster and I'm to arc the jug over the dumpster walls and in you'll experience a complex mixture of hesitancy, immediacy, guy instinct and logical calculation in a split second (or longer).

That's the same math that goes into trebuchet fire. You calculate that intuitively. That's pretty separate from just intelligence, because it's instinctual (for certain uses of instinct).

I also have done (though its been a long while now) said math and for physics at least its very basic stuff. It has a pretty limited number of factors almost by definition. At any rate I'd be more accurate working out the ranges on a cannon then I'll ever be with instinctively throwing javelin or ball. Though I could probably be better still with an bow or rifle but that's another story.

Of course I also recognize that is really what you've personally trained at and acquired as a skill. I essentially never played catch as a kid so I'm not really surprised I suck at throwing things. And I do suck, but I suck a lot less if its a particular throwing operation I've done a lot like I never miss the wastebasket anymore. Because I can remember from experience that I need about X amount of force, with my arm at about position Y, for a range of about Z.

I simply don't buy you're going to have a species without that sort of coordination yet capable of other physical tasks. So its some sort particular disability to me, not a special capablity of humans. Though I suppose you could have say intelligent bears or chimps not capable of throwing half as well physically from their bone structure, if that's still good enough for other more important things like being able to hammer steel or other tasks. Even then its more a matter of what's the best velocity and angle they can get instead so they could say only pass pens in class not become olympic hurlers or major league pitchers.

Your more typical fictional setting humanoid races, yeah those are going to be throwing a spear just fine. Seriously its basic body positioning.

[Brother Oni]

Those spears you linked are throwing spears, not melee weapons. There is even older evidence (500,000 years BP) of the stabbing spear, and some archaeologists believe that such spears date back to pre-Lucy humans. The delay in the Atl-Atl and bow probably had a lot to do with the difficulty of inventing invention itself.

I stand corrected. Paleolithic era weapons are a bit beyond my area of knowledge.

I simply don't buy you're going to have a species without that sort of coordination yet capable of other physical tasks. So its some sort particular disability to me, not a special capablity of humans. Though I suppose you could have say intelligent bears or chimps not capable of throwing half as well physically from their bone structure, if that's still good enough for other more important things like being able to hammer steel or other tasks.

Throwing is just an example, involving spatial awareness and intelligence. As noted earlier, chimpanzees skeletal structure is geared towards a different kind of physical action, as is their musculature - while they're stronger than humans because of it, they don't have the same level of fine control that we have.

While they're perfectly able to hammer stuff in, delicate operations may still be beyond them - tying a sharp stone to a wooden stick to make a spear for example.
Given enough time and cultural/evolutionary pressure, they may be able to overcome this 'disability' - as Gnoman pointed out, it took us a while to invent invention - but the odds are stacked against them already.

[BeerMug Paladin]

While the ability to exert simple mechanical force is possible for us, I must note that there do exist simple machines which can exert great deals of mechanical force reliably that themselves do not require great mechanical force to construct.

We just have no need to invent such contraptions, because we have human bodies instead of octopus (or other) ones. When we build such contraptions, we use them mostly to enhance mechanical force, instead of simply providing it.

Although I don't think it's a requirement, I suspect that metal smelting is something a technologically advanced society would find incredibly useful and because water heats much more easily than air, building one underwater would probably prove difficult. So a land-bound species similar to us will probably have a much easier time building technology.

I think it's probably not quite right to say that our capabilities are ones that a civilization would require, just that our capabilities (compared to the capabilities of other creatures around us) leads us to having a lower barrier of entry (compared to other creatures around us) to a technologically capable civilization.

It could be the case on an alien world that some of these barriers to a technologically advanced society could be mitigated by the natural resources on that world or are mitigated by other advantages which we require technology to achieve for us.

[Stardrake]

Throwing - and the distance spatial awareness that goes into it - is an interesting possibility as a unique feature for humans among other sapient species, since while it's useful for us, it is something that I can see civilisation developing without having it. This is also something that could have a significant impact in styles of warfare - hypothetical sapients that don't have our throwing ability might not develop ranged capabilities, or at least not in forms that require being able to do it by instinct rather than relying on calculations to figure out a desired trajectory. In fantasy-type settings, this would give humans a huge uniqueness factor - they'd be the only race that can effectively use bows, slings, thrown weapons, and other portable ranged weapons, while other races would have to rely on siege engines (and may be less effective even there due to having reduced ability to estimate distances and judge firing angles). This advantage would lessen as more 'point and shoot' weapons such as firearms or lasers get developed - however, if the hypothetical nonhuman sapients are really bad at aiming, then this could be an explanation for that situation you come across occasionally in soft science fiction where a civilisation has advanced weapons on war machines (which have the computing power to calculate firing solutions) but where their infantry still mostly relies on melee weapons.

When it comes to some exotic body shapes:

BeerMug Paladin makes some very valid points. There are some fairly simple devices that can be used by a physically weak species to generate mechanical force.

I'm also disinclined to think that living on land (and thus having fire available) is a requirement. It was very useful for us, first for cooking food (a discovery which is believed to have been quite significant - cooked food is easier and safer to digest, and thus allows humans that ate cooked food to devote less resources towards digestion and avoiding food poisoning, and more towards growing big energy-hungry brains) and later for forging metal, firing pottery, and so on. However, the first may not be necessary, and the second also might not be necessary if a species has some means of creating its own building material. Consider, for example, an underwater species that develops the ability to fashion a shell into any shape it can imagine instead of simply creating a covering for itself - such a species could be able to fashion tools, buildings, and other inventions out of shell. If such a species has any land mobility whatsoever (so more like an octopus than a dolphin) than it might be able to use such shellcrafting to make a primitive water-suit that allows it to go onto land to forge metal. If they shared a world with land-based sapients, too, trading might be possible as a source of worked metal.

Good luck trying to get that one past any editor, though.

Not sure quite what you mean by this... but I have seen it presented as a serious theory. The basic theory is that for many primates that are our close relatives, round buttocks are part of female sexual signalling - as human ancestors became more upright, evolution provided an alternative that was closer to eye level.

That said, it's not really something that makes humans distinct in capabilities to other hypothetical sapients.

[Brother Oni]

Although I don't think it's a requirement, I suspect that metal smelting is something a technologically advanced society would find incredibly useful and because water heats much more easily than air, building one underwater would probably prove difficult.

More like the water would react and interfer with the smelting process.

This advantage would lessen as more 'point and shoot' weapons such as firearms or lasers get developed - however, if the hypothetical nonhuman sapients are really bad at aiming, then this could be an explanation for that situation you come across occasionally in soft science fiction where a civilisation has advanced weapons on war machines (which have the computing power to calculate firing solutions) but where their infantry still mostly relies on melee weapons.

Or combing this with another thread, human mercenary siege captains, who bring their own expertise and advanced weaponry along.

Interestingly enough, during the Middle Ages, siege crew and especially engineers/crew captains were highy prized because of their training and physics knowledge and often being captured just resulted in the siege weapons being turned 180 degrees to fire back at their previous employers.

Consider, for example, an underwater species that develops the ability to fashion a shell into any shape it can imagine instead of simply creating a covering for itself - such a species could be able to fashion tools, buildings, and other inventions out of shell. If such a species has any land mobility whatsoever (so more like an octopus than a dolphin) than it might be able to use such shellcrafting to make a primitive water-suit that allows it to go onto land to forge metal. If they shared a world with land-based sapients, too, trading might be possible as a source of worked metal.

So effectively just being able to grow their own weapons and armour?

That's not as far fetched as it sounds - there's a snail (the scaly footed gastropod) which is capable of incorporating iron based compounds into its shell, thus forming very tough and durable shells. If the underwater civilisation found a way of making the snail grow its shell in a certain way, or an equivalent process, it may be able to make tools of equivalent durability to that on land.

Not sure quite what you mean by this... but I have seen it presented as a serious theory. The basic theory is that for many primates that are our close relatives, round buttocks are part of female sexual signalling - as human ancestors became more upright, evolution provided an alternative that was closer to eye level.

Relevant comic.

Even in other fiction, female sexual signalling has been varied - the Newcomers from Alien Nation have different standards of beauty for example. Back to real life, this signalling is often modified by cultural aspects, for example the current western trend is towards slimmer figures, while other cultures value larger women as a sign they can feed themselves properly.