Settings where humans aren't 'The Mario'

[BeerMug Paladin]

Is this good enough?

[Gnoman]

It would be better to summarize the definition here than link to the trope page.

The core characteristic of "The Mario" is an aggressive lack of specialization. Smart, but not the smartest. Swift, but not the swiftest, strong but not the strongest. Except for intelligence, this is a pretty good description of how humanity relates to the rest of the animal kingdom, as there's always something better than us in any given category, and always something worse in any given category.

[Winterwind]

Except for intelligence, this is a pretty good description of how humanity relates to the rest of the animal kingdom, as there's always something better than us in any given category, and always something worse in any given category.

I'll have to disagree. Even if this was true - and it very much is not, there are plenty of properties largely or completely unique to humans apart from intelligence - that still wouldn't make it a particularly good description, because it is true for almost any animal out there. A description of "there's stuff better and stuff worse than X in any given category" might just as well refer to a human as to a horse, a pig or a hamster. And a term that applies to almost everything? Is pretty much worthless.

[Brother Oni]

The core characteristic of "The Mario" is an aggressive lack of specialization. Smart, but not the smartest. Swift, but not the swiftest, strong but not the strongest. Except for intelligence, this is a pretty good description of how humanity relates to the rest of the animal kingdom, as there's always something better than us in any given category, and always something worse in any given category.

Except for endurance and heat management. In hot climates, nothing beats us for endurance and as mentioned earlier, persistence hunting is our key tactic. The downside to our heat management is our reliance on water (only 3 days without water), hence we're never too far away from it.

You know the old folk tales that say beware of water holes as nasty hungry things live near them? We're one of the things to look out for.

[ShurikVch]

Hadn't heard of these before. Wonder if they're where legends of giants came from?

Gigantopithecus

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Except for endurance and heat management. In hot climates, nothing beats us for endurance

Except camel, and all other desert animals

and as mentioned earlier, persistence hunting is our key tactic.

Criticisms against persistence hunting

[Terraoblivion]

Gigantopithecus

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Except for the part where they weren't giant humans, but giant orangutans. Still apes, but the branch most distant from modern humans.

[Reddish Mage]

I think we're getting way too bogged dow in biology now. Anyway, I found this link immediate from the "jack of all stats" that is rather more on point: Humans Are Average

However, there most of the example really show more "humans as baseline," they aren't truly average they are the yardsticks by which we measure other creatures. Most of the examples given don't work at all. Humans are backwards insignificant creatures in HHGTTG (but humanlike aliens are commonplace and humanlike standards are the baseline), and it certainly doesn't work in LOTR (they are the most corruptible of good races, they are the "masters of horses"). Traits like adaptability, flexibility, being numerous, or having greater variety may count as encouraging "averageness" but it is noted here that these traits, if presence, often lead to humanity becoming superior in some highly important way.

Mario is "jack of all stats" but humans very rarely are.

[Stardrake]

In Warhammer 40000 the imperium of man has conquered the galaxy because no other race is as warlike. Even the forces of Chaos (Bad Guys) pale in comparison to the extent and volume of atrocities the imperium has commited. I'm pretty sure that if imperium went suddenly totally pacifist forces of Chaos would collapse because they are fueled by the negative aspects of living beings. I mean, c'mon, the imperium has killed more of its citizens than Chaos ever has. Really:

"For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat unmoving on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made. (...) Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods."

Orks are more warlike, but less organised. Tau are just as organised, but are better diplomats and depending on your interpretation are at least sneakier about eliminating whoever gets in their way... but aren't as established. The Necrontyr picked a fight with the Old Ones using sublight generation ships, and the Necrons in the current age are just waking up. Tyranids are more 'hungry' than 'warlike', but the distinction is fairly academic, and like the Tau, they haven't been here long enough to overturn the established order.

The Imperium really is the Mario of the setting - it's just that their Mario-ness is hidden through the fact that they have about as many codices as all the other factions combined. Where another faction might have close combat specialists (for example) in their list and maybe a variant list that allows them to take more of their elite close combat specialists, the Imperium has entire codices devoted to things like the Blood Angels who are basically the close-combat specialised chapter of a branch of the military that is a level of elite higher than the Special Forces, and then inside that codex you'll find the guys that they regard as the close combat experts.

The reason they're powerful is basically that, at this stage of the universe's history, they're the established order and they haven't yet been overthrown. The general theme of the setting suggests that won't hold indefinitely, though - and the Imperium is probably the weakest of all the factions so far to have claimed the title of being the established order of the galaxy.

In terms of how many of its own citizens the Imperium has killed - the Imperium is an entity that contains over a million settled worlds, which if we take a conservative estimate of average population to be around a short billion (many will certainly be less, depending on what the minimum population is to be considered 'settled', but then you have the Hive Worlds) gives a total population of the Imperium measured in quadrillions. Thousands a day is probably less than the natural death rate of such a huge civilisation (Earth's death rate is about a hundred and fifty thousand a day, although that does include non-natural causes), let alone the death rate as the result of war. And there may be metaphorical aspects to this passage as well - are they talking about human sacrifices here (which certainly happens in the Imperium) or more figuratively about how the Imperium is powered by the blood, muscle, and faith of its citizens?

When you get down to it, morally speaking the Imperium probably is the Mario of WH40K's Black And Grey Morality. They do horrible things, including to their own citizens, but on the other hand, torture and killing aren't their reason for living (mostly...) like the Chaos worshippers or the Dark Eldar. The Tau and Craftworld Eldar are probably the lightest grey among the currently playable factions in the setting, and that just comes about because they're not actively aiming to commit xenocide, they just don't care if their goals hurts someone else. In many more idealistic settings, they could still easily be the villains.

(the Dark Eldar are what the Eldar empire used to be like, except when Slaanesh rose they doubled down on everything they used to do to give it a reason not to eat them)

I think it's less giving Slaanesh incentive not to eat them - Slaanesh is eating their souls anyway (it's constantly nibbling at the soul of every living Eldar - that's what the Thirst is). What they've done is figured out a way to consume souls themselves at a faster rate than Slaanesh is consuming theirs, preventing themselves from being drained dry. This is, however, unsustainable - the Thirst gets stronger for all Eldar as they age, and some of the fluff suggests that what the Dark Eldar do actually intensifies the Thirst for them, so they need to consume more souls, which intensifies the thirst more, and so on.

The Craftworld and Exodite strategy, by contrast, is to distance themselves psychologically from Slaanesh and collectively make the Craftworlds as bland and uninteresting to Slaanesh as possible without becoming a race of zombies. The Craftworld strategy is probably better for those Eldar that have the strength of will to maintain it... but many of the younger generations can't, so their retention rate is unsustainable. Exodites, meanwhile, are vulnerable to being picked off.

Gigantopithecus

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Bigfoot!

[Killer Angel]

Except for endurance and heat management. In hot climates, nothing beats us for endurance

Except almost all animals that live in hot climates?
Almost every animal got one characteristic in which it's far superior to us. But we have an adaptability to climates that it's unparalleled by any other being, and our average performance in all the fields, has no match in the animal world. Leaving aside int., "The Mario" is a winning formula.

[hamishspence]

Except almost all animals that live in hot climates?

Persistence hunting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

is typically carried out by humans in hot climates.

[Yora]

Persistence hunting is particularly important when you want to capture an animal alive for domestication. If you want it dead, you can do quite well with spears and arrows.

Except for the part where they weren't giant humans, but giant orangutans.

Or as far as we can tell, orangutans with giant teeth.

[Killer Angel]

Persistence hunting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

is typically carried out by humans in hot climates.

Persistence hunting is different from the generic "endurance". A camel is built in a much more efficient way than humans, to survive in a desert climate.

And BTW, endurance running is not seen in animals, because it requires a tremendous expenditure of precious energies. We used it exactly to overcome the disadvantage in speed (hunting antelopes, for example).

[Eldan]

Another thing that humans can do and basically no one else: throwing things accurately. Apes can throw, but not with precision. Meanwhile, even little children can accurately hit a target at some distance. A very valuable hunting skill, that.

[hamishspence]

Persistence hunting is different from the generic "endurance". A camel is built in a much more efficient way than humans, to survive in a desert climate.

And BTW, endurance running is not seen in animals, because it requires a tremendous expenditure of precious energies. We used it exactly to overcome the disadvantage in speed (hunting antelopes, for example).

Some animals hunt in a similar fashion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursorial_hunting

[Killer Angel]

True enough. But the reason is the same: lower top speed but superior endurance.

We have good average performances, so, even if an animal is faster or stronger or tougher than us, we're almost always better to that animal in all the other fields of competence.

In the end, we win by exploiting those advantages.

[hamishspence]

In terms of how many of its own citizens the Imperium has killed - the Imperium is an entity that contains over a million settled worlds, which if we take a conservative estimate of average population to be around a short billion (many will certainly be less, depending on what the minimum population is to be considered 'settled', but then you have the Hive Worlds) gives a total population of the Imperium measured in quadrillions. Thousands a day is probably less than the natural death rate of such a huge civilisation (Earth's death rate is about a hundred and fifty thousand a day, although that does include non-natural causes), let alone the death rate as the result of war. And there may be metaphorical aspects to this passage as well - are they talking about human sacrifices here (which certainly happens in the Imperium) or more figuratively about how the Imperium is powered by the blood, muscle, and faith of its citizens?

Human sacrifices - The Golden Throne is similarly powered by psykers who are attached to the machinery which leeches their life-force, or their souls, to keep the Emperor "alive" or as close to it as he can come. That's apart from the people who die fuelling the Astronomicon.

Only the Emperor's mind is powerful enough to survive
directing the raw forces supplied by the servants of the Adeptus
Astronomica to shape the psychic beacon of the Astronomican.
The same survivability does not hold true for those members of
the Adeptus Astronomica themselves, for their fate is a sad one.
The efforts of generating so much mental energy soon destroys
them, leeching their souls and reducing them to empty husks.
Many die every day, but they are not the only psykers who are
asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, for the Emperor cannot eat
as men eat, or drink or breathe air. His life has long since passed
beyond the point where such things can sustain him and the
only viable sustenance for the Emperor is human life force -
souls - and he has an insatiable appetite.

[ShurikVch]

Persistence hunting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

is typically carried out by humans in hot climates.

Criticisms against persistence hunting

[Brother Oni]

Human sacrifices - The Golden Throne is similarly powered by psykers who are attached to the machinery which leeches their life-force, or their souls, to keep the Emperor "alive" or as close to it as he can come. That's apart from the people who die fuelling the Astronomicon.

To a lesser extent, the human meat grinder tactics circa WW1 of the Imperial Guard also count. I believe one regiment's motto is "We shall drown them in our blood!".

[Hiro Protagonest]

The Imperium really is the Mario of the setting - it's just that their Mario-ness is hidden through the fact that they have about as many codices as all the other factions combined. Where another faction might have close combat specialists (for example) in their list and maybe a variant list that allows them to take more of their elite close combat specialists, the Imperium has entire codices devoted to things like the Blood Angels who are basically the close-combat specialised chapter of a branch of the military that is a level of elite higher than the Special Forces, and then inside that codex you'll find the guys that they regard as the close combat experts.

That's not Imperium, that's Space Marines. There's a distinction.

Space Marines are only a small part of the Imperium's forces. Plus I wouldn't really call them human, they're definitely not a representation of the strengths and weaknesses of the human form in that setting. The big part is the Imperial Guard, which are not the average, and they're only the baseline in the sense that they have the weakest weapons and armor in the game. The Guard is a very ranged faction, with their long-range tanks and artillery and highly accurate lasguns, and the only melee firepower they have are Ogryns, which are so dumb they usually don't even use the big shotguns they're given. They might have some flamethrowers? I'm not sure, but even if they do the guardsmen carrying them are flimsier than whatever they're fighting, so it's not really a good idea.

[hamishspence]

To a lesser extent, the human meat grinder tactics circa WW1 of the Imperial Guard also count. I believe one regiment's motto is "We shall drown them in our blood!".

Certainly the Imperium's generals often have a tendency to throw people away - however, the intro section of every 40K novel includes:

He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

And going by the background section that every main rulebook has (from Rogue Trader down to the present) this is meant in a very literal sense.

[darksolitaire]

To a lesser extent, the human meat grinder tactics circa WW1 of the Imperial Guard also count. I believe one regiment's motto is "We shall drown them in our blood!".

Alternatively, "Send in the next wave!" by courtesy of Commander Chenkov.

[Stardrake]

As I said, the Imperium certainly does perform human sacrifice. It's probably not just the Golden Throne and Astronomicon - there are probably primitive (and maybe some not-so-primitive) worlds where such sacrifices are offered to the Emperor without such a direct line.

However, I'd question whether they do actually kill more of their citizens than enemy activity. There's a lot of conflicts and raiding going on across the Imperium, and as I pointed out, thousands of sacrifices a day is a drop in the ocean for such a large polity. If the losses from enemy activity doesn't run to the millions or even billions per day, then the 40K galaxy is a much more peaceful place than we're lead to believe. Consider that unless the average life expectancy in the Imperium is a lot higher than ours, we'd be expecting about thirty billion deaths a day across the galaxy from old age alone.

That's not Imperium, that's Space Marines. There's a distinction.

Space Marines are only a small part of the Imperium's forces. Plus I wouldn't really call them human, they're definitely not a representation of the strengths and weaknesses of the human form in that setting. The big part is the Imperial Guard, which are not the average, and they're only the baseline in the sense that they have the weakest weapons and armor in the game. The Guard is a very ranged faction, with their long-range tanks and artillery and highly accurate lasguns, and the only melee firepower they have are Ogryns, which are so dumb they usually don't even use the big shotguns they're given. They might have some flamethrowers? I'm not sure, but even if they do the guardsmen carrying them are flimsier than whatever they're fighting, so it's not really a good idea.

Space Marines are part of the Imperium. Yes, they have a certain degree of autonomy - but really, the Imperium is so big it's basically impossible to govern centrally, and outside of Segmentum Solar it's basically a patchwork of domains with varying degrees of autonomy united by a common loyalty to the Golden Throne. Overall, the various codex armies loyal to the Imperium, including the Space Marines, are probably still more tightly bound than some armies that are represented by a single codex. (Orks? Highest level of organisation they have is the Waaagh! Craftworld Eldar? Each craftworld is totally independent of the others - they don't have a higher figure they answer to even in theory.) Even if we were to brush that aside, they're still humans (genetically modified, yes, but still fundamentally humans) so given that the topic of the thread is humans being the Mario, it would still count if every human-inhabited system was totally independent of one another. So when considering if humans are the Mario, that means adding up all the human codices together. While certain codices are specialised, the aggregate averages out somewhere around the middle.

The spot where I think humanity as a whole pushes away from the middle ground the most is that compared to other races, they probably do lean more towards ranged than melee than the average - but even the Imperial Guard has Ogryns as close-combat specialists, and Space Marines have more than that. Tau, however, sit further out on that extreme, especially if you consider the Tau as a race rather than a codex - there are no close combat specialists among the Tau, they rely entirely on auxiliaries of other races for that role.

[GloatingSwine]

In rules design terms the Space Marine codex, and the Tactical Marine Squad as a unit, is the default from which all others deviate.

That's an intentional part of rules design as well, they're intended to be the baseline army and also hence the beginner friendly army because you don't have to account for particular strengths and weaknesses at the army level (and they have a nice forgiving save).

[Stardrake]

True enough, and in at least some editions (I'm not all that familiar with the last couple) some of the Space Marine special rules can basically be summed up as 'you don't need to worry about certain rules that other armies have to deal with', thus making them even more forgiving.

On the other hand, this is exactly what makes humans the Mario in many settings to begin with - being the baseline that the others deviate from.

[Killer Angel]

I doubt there's a single race in WH40K, that could be defined as "the Mario" (intended as "neither great nor terrible at anything").

[Stardrake]

Taken as a whole: Humanity. They can do quantity (Guard) or quality (Imperial Assassins... or, somewhat less extreme, Marines). They can do shooty (SIGAFH) or stabby (Ogryns, Assault Marines, one could say Berserkers of Khorne count although they're not Imperial). They have psykers without being the expert at it, they're roughly mid-range in technology*. On the 'resilience, firepower, speed' triangle, they're probably a bit higher on the resilience scale than average and a bit lower on speed, just as I commented earlier that they're more inclined towards shooting than melee.

*To be precise: There are a lot of codices with higher technology (Tau, Necrons, the two Eldar codices) and of the remainder that aren't effectively using Imperial technology anyway, only one is lower (Orks... mostly) and two are so weird that it's hard to judge (Tyranids, Demons). However, the fluff claims that Imperial technology is higher than most of their enemies. The codex factions are probably biased towards the high end because to become one, it has to be a faction powerful enough for the Imperium to take it seriously - since there can only be so many factions out there that can match the Imperium in sheer resources, so other factions need higher technology or some other significant advantage to keep an edge.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: We might want to move the discussion of WH40K to Other Games, folks.

[thorgrim29]

Warhammer 40K does tend to be to sci-fi discussions what Godwin's law is to political ones doesn't it?

[LibraryOgre]

Warhammer 40K does tend to be to sci-fi discussions what Godwin's law is to political ones doesn't it?

A little bit, yeah.

[Sith_Happens]

Warhammer 40K does tend to be to sci-fi discussions what Godwin's law is to political ones doesn't it?

In the grim darkness of the Internet there is only WH40k.