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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Wisdom hands down.

    With a 16 str you deal 2d8 + 3 = 12 avg damg and sacred flame deals 9 at lvl 5 but is ranged and continues to scale.

    Wis however gives more prepared spells, higher dc's aaand makes spiritual weapon (which was my dpr bread and butter on my former cleric) way more potent.

    Divine strike keeps you decent at melee, it's not something you should aim to build around - bumping strength has to high of an opportunity cost, I'd consider it a trap'ish option.

    So wis or warcaster, res con is super boring and you got a high, and more importantly even con score as is.
    Besides the further you delve into the game, the less attractive the attack action becomes for you in general.

    Edit: I would have made the same stat allocation as you, the 14 strength plus warhammer proficiency got you through the early lvls, so it served its purpose - now you are moving into the 'I'm a chosen of my god, behold my power infidel' territory, a territory where simply beating people with your hammer is below you :)
    Last edited by Lollerabe; 2016-04-27 at 02:40 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #272
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    No chance of Magic Initiate? Generally speaking, since you don't get extra attacks, your attack stat is supposed to be important once you get divine strike. If you had more attacks, it wouldn't matter that much as much as this 1d8 is concerned.

    But while you buff your main attack with str, your spirit weapon doesn't get any better.

    At lvl 8 against an AC of 15
    +2 Str will result in: 12.38 dpr
    +2 Wis will result in: 12.25 dpr

    It's abysmal. I think it's better to grab WIS for your other spells.
    It's still not a great dpr increase as far as averages are concerned.
    It will increase SG's DC but +1 isn't that important when you still deal half damage on a save.
    It will make a difference with various debuffs and utility though.

    Only reason to go STR is if you are making use of BB/GFB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollerabe View Post
    Wisdom hands down.

    With a 16 str you deal 2d8 + 3 = 12 avg damg and sacred flame deals 9 at lvl 5 but is ranged and continues to scale.

    Wis however gives more prepared spells, higher dc's aaand makes spiritual weapon (which was my dpr bread and butter on my former cleric) way more potent.

    Divine strike keeps you decent at melee, it's not something you should aim to build around - bumping strength has to high of an opportunity cost, I'd consider it a trap'ish option.

    So wis or warcaster, res con is super boring and you got a high, and more importantly even con score as is.
    Besides the further you delve into the game, the less attractive the attack action becomes for you in general.

    Edit: I would have made the same stat allocation as you, the 14 strength plus warhammer proficiency got you through the early lvls, so it served its purpose - now you are moving into the 'I'm a chosen of my god, behold my power infidel' territory, a territory where simply beating people with your hammer is below you :)
    I wish I had a choice instead of the divine smite. But I will go wisdom and take it to 16. And very good take on the evolution of my character. Hopefully I will not have to swing that warhammer around so much and focus on casting and buffing.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    At 8th level, my life cleric gets radiant damage added to his melee attack. My strength is 14. Am I concerned or is that good enough? Things like resilient con and maxing out wisdom seem more important, but I want to get some real use out of this.

    Should I be focusing on strength, and say leave wisdom at 16?

    I'm a hill dwarf 14/10/16/16/10/8, standard array. I'm actually about to level up to 4th level. Should I invest in strength in preparation of the clerics divine smite at 8th, because bless conflicts with spirit guardians coming to me at 5th.
    Yes, I'd agree, the extra benefit of more strength pays off very little as opposed to adding to wisdom where you get a better spell dc on every single spell, and get to have another spell prepared. I'm a heavy caster though.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by rhombism View Post
    Yes, I'd agree, the extra benefit of more strength pays off very little as opposed to adding to wisdom where you get a better spell dc on every single spell, and get to have another spell prepared. I'm a heavy caster though.
    No I'm sold. Spiritual guardians affects everyone crowding around me. And sacred flame is nice. And the +1 to attack is only for melee. I'll max out wisdom.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Hi all!

    I'm role-playing a 3d-level Hill Dwarf Cleric of Light. My DM keeps finding ways for me and the other spellcasters (both divine and arcane) to deprive us from our spells: we get caught and stripped of possessions (i.e. Holy Symbol, spellbooks), we cannot LR, etc. I understand that this is the way of the game, however not being able to stick to my HS means that I cannot use spells such as Light, Flaming Sphere, Create Water, Bless, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Aid and, of course, Channel Divinity (and the Radiance of Dawn 'weapon'). I suggested to tattoo it; nada... I suggested to comb it into my facial hair; no cigar... To have a spare in my boot (where else?): still no agreement! Any other suggestions? My thanks,

    Roger

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger_Druid View Post
    Hi all!

    I'm role-playing a 3d-level Hill Dwarf Cleric of Light. My DM keeps finding ways for me and the other spellcasters (both divine and arcane) to deprive us from our spells: we get caught and stripped of possessions (i.e. Holy Symbol, spellbooks), we cannot LR, etc. I understand that this is the way of the game, however not being able to stick to my HS means that I cannot use spells such as Light, Flaming Sphere, Create Water, Bless, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Aid and, of course, Channel Divinity (and the Radiance of Dawn 'weapon'). I suggested to tattoo it; nada... I suggested to comb it into my facial hair; no cigar... To have a spare in my boot (where else?): still no agreement! Any other suggestions? My thanks,

    Roger
    As a light cleric, you would have your Warding Flare, which doesn't have a mention of needing the holy symbol, but otherwise you're not spellcasting.

    You're focusing your questions on getting back your spellcasting ability or ensuring that you don't lose it again. I like your suggestions, and you could even look at things like learning a skill that would allow you to craft a new holy symbol of your faith from raw materials you might find yourself among when put in these situations.

    My guess is more that your DM would like to see the spellcasters working on non-spell methods of solving the puzzles he/she has written into the game. This can be cool, but if it's a constant, repeating thing, you and any other frustrated players may want to have a talk with the DM about style of play that would be fun for all. Magic use is a part of the game and taking it away at every turn won't be fun for a player. On the other hand, having to RP through a puzzle without magic can also be fun as a part of the grand scheme of things.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by RulesJD View Post
    Could not disagree harder.

    1. Take a Feat/Multiclass dip to get proficiency in Con saves (I prefer Wild Magic Sorc)

    2. Cast it before you enter the Dungeon/Castle/whatever.

    3. Profit
    You forgot the nice addition of multiclassing Sorcerer for at least a few levels, which is to cast Spirit Guardians with "Extended" Metamagic, just so you can be sure to use it to the most: 20mn should be enough to cover 2-3 fights, including the walk between them.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I was in the process of creating an Arcana Cleric who is supposed to be a friend of my main character.

    While I was looking through the spell list I realized something. A high level Cleric is an end game boss. He can obliterate armies or undead/fiends/etc with amazing ease.
    It's funny that I missed it for so long because I was focusing on the more traditional playstyles, but what he can do is unreal.

    Forbiddance has to be the most powerful spell in the game. It completely kills the logistics of an opposing army. Cast one and suddenly the DM needs cultists to dispel it!
    He can cast Hallow with vulnerability to radiant damage on choke points, pop Spirit Guardians and throw Sacred Flames. He can stay behind full cover to avoid ranged attacks and create a killzone.
    A high level Arcana Cleric can cast Simulacrum on himself for more fun.
    Divine Word is the cherry on top, aoe banish.

    Does anyone have actual experience with a high level cleric in a war setting?

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    I wish I had a choice instead of the divine smite. But I will go wisdom and take it to 16. And very good take on the evolution of my character. Hopefully I will not have to swing that warhammer around so much and focus on casting and buffing.
    magic initiate ==> druid (shillelagh, one other cantrip you like, and one level 1 spell of choice - probably goodberry, it's silly how good it is for a life cleric). now you can focus on your spellcasting *and* your ability to bash people in the face. problem solved.

    (you could also just take a full multiclass dip into druid, but that may not fit with your plans for the character quite as well. but maybe it will :) )

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Thumbs up Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Want to begin saying great guide, and then, add some more criticism that I had from the previous post I made (booming blade/greenflame blade for other domains than arcana).

    First, would be nice if you ranked the whole domain with color and stuff for us "idiots"

    Secondly, I would really like if you added the domain spells into the ranking, as it plays a great role in choosing domain. In that regard, I do not understand why you rank Life Domain Spells that high. Yes, it got many of the best cleric spells, yet none of it goes outside the standard list. Having good spells from outside the cleric list, should be noted, and given a bonus. I also think you greatly underestimate Light and Tempest domain, one of the better domain in my opinion. A fireball from a light cleric is just as good as one from a Wizard (with some exceptions), and a Tempest cleric can deal tons of damage with a maximized Destructive Wave, or just call lightning, while at the same time wade into melee, heal and support. Both have really good channel divinity. Unless you think that a cleric does nothing but heal, then those are really good domains. Cleric from both domain are still great at healing/support.

    Also, Blessed Healer ranked sky blue? How many hit points do you expect to gain from it between long rests? I am currently playing a life cleric, it is good, as most life cleric features, but nothing of it is extraordinary. At the same time, nothing is really bad. Unlike light cleric who got a mixture of really great and really terrible things.

    Ohh... And keep up the good work (y)
    Last edited by Sno; 2016-04-27 at 06:37 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    A fireball from a light cleric is just as good as one from a Wizard
    I play a Light Cleric and in the Underdark can tell you it's a lot to like. Fireball gives me 4d6 damage at Level 5, something boring nrmal clerics don't get until Flame Strike (same damage) at Level 9! Plus then that frees me up to use other Level 5 spells.

    The only (small) downside I've found is that if really don't want to set things on fire (so you're walking on a giant cavernful of spider webs when the drow attack!) you do revert back to hammer, buffing and healing pretty quickly.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by rhombism View Post
    As a light cleric, you would have your Warding Flare, which doesn't have a mention of needing the holy symbol, but otherwise you're not spellcasting.

    You're focusing your questions on getting back your spellcasting ability or ensuring that you don't lose it again. I like your suggestions, and you could even look at things like learning a skill that would allow you to craft a new holy symbol of your faith from raw materials you might find yourself among when put in these situations.

    My guess is more that your DM would like to see the spellcasters working on non-spell methods of solving the puzzles he/she has written into the game. This can be cool, but if it's a constant, repeating thing, you and any other frustrated players may want to have a talk with the DM about style of play that would be fun for all. Magic use is a part of the game and taking it away at every turn won't be fun for a player. On the other hand, having to RP through a puzzle without magic can also be fun as a part of the grand scheme of things.
    Thank you rhombism!

    Since you're the only one to answer me, I guess you have much more experience than I... The thing is that our DM despises the use of much magic, to this you were right, so he constantly tries to deny us its use. On the other hand, we constantly face foes that can damage us, even a little, but frequently, so that without healing spells we seem to always strive to go on under-fitted and under-powered. It is fun, I admit, however we also want to improve ourselves; that cannot be done facing giant spiders, badgers, and pack of wolves and having to one-by-one combat them! The XPs are not enough, we remain behind (in time and experience), we do not enjoy our characters in small levels (and do not learn the smart use of spells that we won't use again)... We talked to him, he says that everything's been taken care of! Yet, in our last session, he/we managed to also lose our weapons, armor, equipment, spell slots, a comrade... It's frustrating, somehow I feel that our only solution is to out-smart him; for the time being, I also cannot craft/find a new HS. Did I give you the picture, now?

    Roger

    P.S. Changing game/DM is not an option; there aren't others in my city

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Thanks to everyone answering questions! I've had limited internet this week, so it's good to see the community jumping in to help. I've made the edits that I promised, tweaking a couple of multiclassing ratings and adding to the book that is Blessing of the Trickster. I decided to leave Spirit Guardians where it is, as it remains a solid but not universally useful spell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    Want to begin saying great guide, and then, add some more criticism that I had from the previous post I made (booming blade/greenflame blade for other domains than arcana).
    Thanks! Glad it could be useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    First, would be nice if you ranked the whole domain with color and stuff for us "idiots"
    So here's the deal with "ranking" domains. I think they're all great except Trickery. Like they'd pretty much all be Dark Blue, with Trickery as Purple. I might drop Knowledge to Black. Maybe. But for the most part it's such a build-defining decision that you can make any domain work when you base your build on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    Secondly, I would really like if you added the domain spells into the ranking, as it plays a great role in choosing domain. In that regard, I do not understand why you rank Life Domain Spells that high. Yes, it got many of the best cleric spells, yet none of it goes outside the standard list. Having good spells from outside the cleric list, should be noted, and given a bonus.
    The reason I don't list out stuff like Domain spells is that I assume people have their books open as they read this. As for Life spells, it's a solid set, despite all being on the Cleric list. I definitely wouldn't move it up to Light Blue or anything, but every Cleric should probably prepare several of those spells every day anyway. If anything I might consider raising some of the other Domain Spells in rating, rather than lowering Life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    I also think you greatly underestimate Light and Tempest domain, one of the better domain in my opinion. A fireball from a light cleric is just as good as one from a Wizard (with some exceptions), and a Tempest cleric can deal tons of damage with a maximized Destructive Wave, or just call lightning, while at the same time wade into melee, heal and support. Both have really good channel divinity. Unless you think that a cleric does nothing but heal, then those are really good domains. Cleric from both domain are still great at healing/support.
    I am well aware that these Domains are both fantastic. They are essentially the two major forms of Blaster-Caster that a Cleric can become. And as you point out, even as a Blaster-Caster a Cleric can still function as a solid healer and buffer. Does this not come across in the guide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    Also, Blessed Healer ranked sky blue? How many hit points do you expect to gain from it between long rests? I am currently playing a life cleric, it is good, as most life cleric features, but nothing of it is extraordinary. At the same time, nothing is really bad. Unlike light cleric who got a mixture of really great and really terrible things.
    You've got a good point here. I might drop this down to regular Dark Blue, since it's serving basically the same function as most of the other Life features, all of which are great and synergistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sno View Post
    Ohh... And keep up the good work (y)
    Thanks! I plan to.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger_Druid View Post
    Thank you rhombism!

    Since you're the only one to answer me, I guess you have much more experience than I... The thing is that our DM despises the use of much magic, to this you were right, so he constantly tries to deny us its use. On the other hand, we constantly face foes that can damage us, even a little, but frequently, so that without healing spells we seem to always strive to go on under-fitted and under-powered. It is fun, I admit, however we also want to improve ourselves; that cannot be done facing giant spiders, badgers, and pack of wolves and having to one-by-one combat them! The XPs are not enough, we remain behind (in time and experience), we do not enjoy our characters in small levels (and do not learn the smart use of spells that we won't use again)... We talked to him, he says that everything's been taken care of! Yet, in our last session, he/we managed to also lose our weapons, armor, equipment, spell slots, a comrade... It's frustrating, somehow I feel that our only solution is to out-smart him; for the time being, I also cannot craft/find a new HS. Did I give you the picture, now?

    Roger

    P.S. Changing game/DM is not an option; there aren't others in my city
    Roger, that's a tough situation, and I'm sorry for you. Are you in the DM's homebrew world or one of the published adventures?

    If changing groups is not an option, then the other option you would have would be to do what my DM tells me to do every time I complain... DM yourself. you might suggest that he let you run a one-off night some time, maybe in between normal sessions, where you run a high magic world scenario. Let him play in the environment with a spell caster and see how balanced it can be. Or perhaps run a high religion world where clerical and druidic magics are common but arcane magic is still very uncommon.

    It is one thing to say we have a low magic world and I'm not going to let you have spells or items, but want you to survive by sheer melee, than to say I'm going to let you have spells and objects but constantly take them away from you.

    After he sees your interest in and treatment of magic in your world maybe he'll talk about allowing it more or using it more in his.

    Good luck.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger_Druid View Post
    tough situation
    That sounds really rough. Light is one of those domains that relies more on its casting than others. I'm sure you're already doing this, but make sure to prepare spells you can cast without a Holy Symbol. Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Silence, and Spiritual Weapon, just to name a few low level good ones. You'll still have plenty of healing and damage, but your ability to cast supportively is admittedly pretty limited. Depending on your stats Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, or a multiclass might give you a greater variety of spells to utilize.

    And definitely have a Monk rolled up as a backup character
    Last edited by Yorrin; 2016-04-28 at 04:08 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    That sounds really rough. Light is one of those domains that relies more on its casting than others. I'm sure you're already doing this, but make sure to prepare spells you can cast without a Holy Symbol. Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Silence, and Spiritual Weapon, just to name a few low level good ones. You'll still have plenty of healing and damage, but your ability to cast supportively is admittedly pretty limited. Depending on your stats Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, or a multiclass might give you a greater variety of spells to utilize.

    And definitely have a Monk rolled up as a backup character
    Monks need ki points and if he's limiting all recourse then that might screw him to. Rogue is going to be the best class in that situation as its abilities are always on and do not require a short or long rest for any of them.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    Monks need ki points and if he's limiting all recourse then that might screw him to. Rogue is going to be the best class in that situation as its abilities are always on and do not require a short or long rest for any of them.
    I was mostly thinking in terms of losing all gear. But yeah, lack of short rests could really screw stuff up too. Sounds like the DM is trying to play a game other than DnD, to be honest. Sounds like you'd be better off playing something like.... I don't know... Exalted? Legend? Numenera? maybe something Whitewolf?

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    magic initiate ==> druid (shillelagh, one other cantrip you like, and one level 1 spell of choice - probably goodberry, it's silly how good it is for a life cleric). now you can focus on your spellcasting *and* your ability to bash people in the face. problem solved.

    (you could also just take a full multiclass dip into druid, but that may not fit with your plans for the character quite as well. but maybe it will :) )
    This is very good idea, I thought about it. I may snag this at 8th level. I took the wisdom bump already.

    Excellent advice, and he is a hill dwarf so heavy armor will not be a problem either.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    , and he is a hill dwarf so heavy armor will not be a problem either.
    I'm not sure this is so. I know you get heavy armor proficiency with Life, Tempest and War domains, but not with Hill dwarf. Otherwise, I'd have had a wee set of full plate made up for meself already.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by rhombism View Post
    Roger, that's a tough situation, and I'm sorry for you. Are you in the DM's homebrew world or one of the published adventures?

    If changing groups is not an option, then the other option you would have would be to do what my DM tells me to do every time I complain... DM yourself. you might suggest that he let you run a one-off night some time, maybe in between normal sessions, where you run a high magic world scenario. Let him play in the environment with a spell caster and see how balanced it can be. Or perhaps run a high religion world where clerical and druidic magics are common but arcane magic is still very uncommon.

    It is one thing to say we have a low magic world and I'm not going to let you have spells or items, but want you to survive by sheer melee, than to say I'm going to let you have spells and objects but constantly take them away from you.

    After he sees your interest in and treatment of magic in your world maybe he'll talk about allowing it more or using it more in his.

    Good luck.
    Hi again thombism!

    I was away for a few days, thank you for your answer. However, your suggestions are more on the general side, than they hit the target of my query: we need to out-smart our DM in his game, not convince him as a person. You see, he has built the world we play, thinks he has covered all bases; he runs a general campaign (his), but uses various adventures so that we can level up. Being 'nasty' to us, is his M.O.; besides, I've always felt that a good DM should be LE (if applied), not even LN! Maybe the problem is that we haven't started to act as a team, yet... Here's the picture:

    cleric, Hill Dwarf (me)
    druid, Gnome
    paladin, Deva
    warlock, Tiefling
    wizard, Elf

    we're all 3d level each. Our DM imposed a spellbook for every spellcaster (basically, all of us), even the to the druid!, his selection of cantrips and spells from the DMG (even to the clerics!); no one learns a new spell while leveling up unless someone else teaches it to him/her or we can scribe it from a source; he gave us nothing to balance lost power (well, except for our foes to have the same problems). So, you see, without some cantrips, using spellbooks, and not having HSs, we cannot perform at peak status, change spells, use domain features (e.g. Radiance of the Dawn). To top it all, after being enslaved, barely survived an arena battle (against our future comrades since we all started separately), we find ourselves in wild magic areas: I tried to use Healing word to an injured comrade and I managed to tender him unconscious! Thankfully, I can use Medicine checks; healing is putting us in jeopardy...

    Anyhow, I guess when we'll start to die one by one he will re-consider. However, I, for one, feel I failed some... Additionally, as I first told you, it annoys me to not ever use spells such as Detect Evil and Good, Purify Food and Drink, Shield of Faith, or Cantrips such as Guidance, Resistance, Thaumaturgy, all niceand nifty in smaller levels but soon forgotten when you reach middle/top ones.

    Roger

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    That sounds really rough. Light is one of those domains that relies more on its casting than others. I'm sure you're already doing this, but make sure to prepare spells you can cast without a Holy Symbol. Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Silence, and Spiritual Weapon, just to name a few low level good ones. You'll still have plenty of healing and damage, but your ability to cast supportively is admittedly pretty limited. Depending on your stats Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, or a multiclass might give you a greater variety of spells to utilize.

    And definitely have a Monk rolled up as a backup character
    Hi Yorrin,

    And thank you for taking the time to answer me! Now... Cure Wounds and Guiding Bolt are useless to me 'cause we are also stranded in wild magic areas (see my recent answer to rhombism), Healing Word, Silence, and Spiritual Weapon are, for the time being, foreign to me (our DM has given us his selection of spells we could know). Finally, I like being a cleric, I chose this class specifically and I'd like to play it to its peak abilities. No, I feel the answer to my problem is to manage to drive our DM to a corner either by being smarter or by being... dead! All of us; then he could re-consider some facts, though Id' still feel cheated and a failure...

    Roger

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    Monks need ki points and if he's limiting all recourse then that might screw him to. Rogue is going to be the best class in that situation as its abilities are always on and do not require a short or long rest for any of them.
    Hi DireSickFish,

    I just wanted to say I totally agree with you! Naturally, I'd prefer to be a cleric, yet, should I die, building a rogue would be my next choice,

    Roger

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    I was mostly thinking in terms of losing all gear. But yeah, lack of short rests could really screw stuff up too. Sounds like the DM is trying to play a game other than DnD, to be honest. Sounds like you'd be better off playing something like.... I don't know... Exalted? Legend? Numenera? maybe something Whitewolf?
    Yorrin,

    All quite good games; however my team remained almost 3 years without a DM, so we'll stick to our current one... to the end (very near, I'm afraid),

    Roger

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger_Druid View Post
    Hi again thombism!

    I was away for a few days, thank you for your answer. However, your suggestions are more on the general side, than they hit the target of my query: we need to out-smart our DM in his game, not convince him as a person. You see, he has built the world we play, thinks he has covered all bases; he runs a general campaign (his), but uses various adventures so that we can level up. Being 'nasty' to us, is his M.O.; besides, I've always felt that a good DM should be LE (if applied), not even LN! Maybe the problem is that we haven't started to act as a team, yet... Here's the picture:

    cleric, Hill Dwarf (me)
    druid, Gnome
    paladin, Deva
    warlock, Tiefling
    wizard, Elf

    we're all 3d level each. Our DM imposed a spellbook for every spellcaster (basically, all of us), even the to the druid!, his selection of cantrips and spells from the DMG (even to the clerics!); no one learns a new spell while leveling up unless someone else teaches it to him/her or we can scribe it from a source; he gave us nothing to balance lost power (well, except for our foes to have the same problems). So, you see, without some cantrips, using spellbooks, and not having HSs, we cannot perform at peak status, change spells, use domain features (e.g. Radiance of the Dawn). To top it all, after being enslaved, barely survived an arena battle (against our future comrades since we all started separately), we find ourselves in wild magic areas: I tried to use Healing word to an injured comrade and I managed to tender him unconscious! Thankfully, I can use Medicine checks; healing is putting us in jeopardy...

    Anyhow, I guess when we'll start to die one by one he will re-consider. However, I, for one, feel I failed some... Additionally, as I first told you, it annoys me to not ever use spells such as Detect Evil and Good, Purify Food and Drink, Shield of Faith, or Cantrips such as Guidance, Resistance, Thaumaturgy, all niceand nifty in smaller levels but soon forgotten when you reach middle/top ones.

    Roger

    Roger, at this point I think you have less of a cleric problem and more of a game dynamic problem. There's nothing in the mechanics or methods of role playing a cleric that can help you if your DM simply thwarts every attempt. That's not a game I'd enjoy, that's more like my real life job, and I play for the escapism, not to replicate another frustrating environment. I don't have any more to offer. Good luck.

    PS, you could consider changing classes and becoming a Shrubber... Roger, the Shrubber.

    Ni!

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    @Yorrin, I actually have a comment about the guide! Now that I'm getting up there in levels, ahem, I finally got a 5th level spell, and am looking through that list. You listed Flame Strike as Royal Blue and say it's one of the staples of a Light cleric blaster.

    I would probably still have it royal blue, but would differentiate that it would only be valuable for the NON Light cleric blaster. My logic would be that the Light cleric gets the domain spell Fireball, a level 3 spell that does 8d6 fire (plus extra d when cast at 4+ level) or half on successful DEX save in a 20' x 20' sphere and which can be cast from 120' away with reusable M components.

    Flame Strike, by comparison is a level 5 spell that does 4d6 fire plus 4d6 radiant (plus extra d when cast at 6+ level) or half on successful DEX save in a 10' x 40' column, and which can be cast from only 60' away with reusable M components.

    So the benefits of Flame Strike over Fireball would be the mixed type of damage for things that were resistant to fire (why are you casting fire spell then?), the column shape of the AoE (great for maybe striking an area where things are flying or on ledges), and possibly a strict interpretation of cover impeding the ball flying from your fingers.

    The benefits of Fireball on the other hand are that it's only a 3rd level spell, it has a wider AoE for clustering around lots of foes on the ground (arguably more common), you can cast it from twice as far away.

    Same total amount of damage. Same total amount of AoE, same components and spell mechanics.

    But the biggest difference of them all is that NON-Light clerics don't get Fireball!

    So for a Light cleric (me) Flame Strike is not a spell I'd prepare on a regular basis unless I was anticipating going up against some infantry with close in air support. I'd instead prep Greater Restoration, or Mass Heal or Contagion and blast away with three fireballs at level 3.

    If I am not a Light cleric, then by all means, join the party with Flame Strike, because, as the great George Carlin often said:

    The very existence of flamethrowers [the Flame Strike spell] proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
    Last edited by rhombism; 2016-05-07 at 09:19 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Flamestrike, sadly, is on the Light Cleric's domain list, which is a total waste. I realize that it's flavourful and Flamestrike is an iconic cleric spell, but it's really way too situational to be a good choice as a domain spell.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I like the guide, thanks. One question / remark though. Aren't the SCAG-cantrips really good for melee clerics? Just as rogues, they don't have extra attack, but have an upgrade to the attack they have (divine strike). Greenflame blade or booming blade add 3d8 damage to that single attack, without interfearing with their bonus attack (spiritual weapon) or a spell like spirit guardians; its a bonus. For a tempest cleric its even better, since it has a small combo with booming blade, thunderbolt strike and wrath of the storm (melee attack with booming blade, first hit next turn use wrath of the storm on opponent for lighting damage, push 10 feat back with thunderbolt strike, and force the opponent to take the extra booming blade damage if it wants to have another attack (cause forced to move).

    Considering this, shouldn't the feat magic initiate, and the races high elf and half elf (SCAG adaption) be rated a bit higher?

    (ps: I didn't read through 10 pages discussion, if this was adressed already: sorry!)

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    Flamestrike, sadly, is on the Light Cleric's domain list, which is a total waste. I realize that it's flavourful and Flamestrike is an iconic cleric spell, but it's really way too situational to be a good choice as a domain spell.
    Oh, you're right! So I have to have it prepared anyway, but I guess my point would be that it wouldn't be worth casting it when you can do the same damage with a Level 3 spell. And as the domain spell it's "free" but yes, it would be nice if Light got something else fun. Double Flame Strike would be nice! Or Flame Strafe: 4 or 5 Flame Strike pillars of flame strike in a row while the sound of a P-51 Mustang passes 40' overhead.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    It'd be nice if you could choose to do all radiant damage with Flamestrike. At least that way there would be situations where it's useful. As it is, if you try Flamestrike against fire-resistant monsters it does 6d6 damage while Fireball does 5d6. Big whoop.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    I like the guide, thanks. One question / remark though. Aren't the SCAG-cantrips really good for melee clerics? Just as rogues, they don't have extra attack, but have an upgrade to the attack they have (divine strike). Greenflame blade or booming blade add 3d8 damage to that single attack, without interfearing with their bonus attack (spiritual weapon) or a spell like spirit guardians; its a bonus. For a tempest cleric its even better, since it has a small combo with booming blade, thunderbolt strike and wrath of the storm (melee attack with booming blade, first hit next turn use wrath of the storm on opponent for lighting damage, push 10 feat back with thunderbolt strike, and force the opponent to take the extra booming blade damage if it wants to have another attack (cause forced to move).

    Considering this, shouldn't the feat magic initiate, and the races high elf and half elf (SCAG adaption) be rated a bit higher?

    (ps: I didn't read through 10 pages discussion, if this was adressed already: sorry!)
    They are indeed, though it's worth noting that (barring Arcana Domain) it's impossible to get them as Wisdom-reliant, which is fine for BB but something of a downer for GFB.
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