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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    You really want a headache? Picture the staff + shield Cleric from the above discussion with Polearm Master making attacks with each end of his staff with one hand
    Why is that weird? You strike with the staff normally, bring it vertical and let go for an instant so you can grab it higher up the shaft, then do an underhand thrust. It's extremely inefficient, but looks cool. In other words, it's just like all the other fighting techniques in D&D. ;)
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    Why is that weird? You strike with the staff normally, bring it vertical and let go for an instant so you can grab it higher up the shaft, then do an underhand thrust. It's extremely inefficient, but looks cool. In other words, it's just like all the other fighting techniques in D&D. ;)
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  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Awesome guide. Was hoping to get some advice. First time playing DnD I am in adventure league group. I decided I wanted to play a hill dwarf tempest cleric for the roleplaying aspect as well as the cleric seems awesome.

    My DM gave us all set stats to place how we wanted. after racial bonuses my stats are

    STR 14
    Dex 13
    Con 15
    Int 8
    Wis 16
    Chr 10

    I plan to play as secondary tank with some aoe damage spells for when I get surrounded. I wear heavy armor and use Warhammer and shield giving me an AC of 18.
    First I'm just asking for any advice.
    Secondly if warcaster would be good for me or resilient feats.
    Third was wondering if I should boost Wis first then try to get a feat then when I'm level 12 put a point into my con then put a point into STR so I can wear plate mail.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    Awesome guide. Was hoping to get some advice. First time playing DnD I am in adventure league group. I decided I wanted to play a hill dwarf tempest cleric for the roleplaying aspect as well as the cleric seems awesome.

    My DM gave us all set stats to place how we wanted. after racial bonuses my stats are

    STR 14
    Dex 13
    Con 15
    Int 8
    Wis 16
    Chr 10

    I plan to play as secondary tank with some aoe damage spells for when I get surrounded. I wear heavy armor and use Warhammer and shield giving me an AC of 18.
    First I'm just asking for any advice.
    Secondly if warcaster would be good for me or resilient feats.
    Third was wondering if I should boost Wis first then try to get a feat then when I'm level 12 put a point into my con then put a point into STR so I can wear plate mail.

    Any advice would be appreciated.
    Warcaster is the feat to go for if you're planning on being in combat and concentrating on spells. Get that first, then bump strength and con.

  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by McNinja View Post
    Warcaster is the feat to go for if you're planning on being in combat and concentrating on spells. Get that first, then bump strength and con.
    Yeah, hitting that full Plate minimum would be really nice, so this is solid advice. After that I'd say max Wis. Resilient is nice, but not necessary, so I'd save it for later levels if at all.

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    Awesome guide. Was hoping to get some advice. First time playing DnD I am in adventure league group. I decided I wanted to play a hill dwarf tempest cleric for the roleplaying aspect as well as the cleric seems awesome.

    My DM gave us all set stats to place how we wanted. after racial bonuses my stats are

    STR 14
    Dex 13
    Con 15
    Int 8
    Wis 16
    Chr 10
    I'm confused. This looks like the standard array, but you have 2 13s. Either your Con should be 14 (with a 12) or your Dex should be 12... I'm guessing you just typed one of the numbers wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    I plan to play as secondary tank with some aoe damage spells for when I get surrounded. I wear heavy armor and use Warhammer and shield giving me an AC of 18.
    First I'm just asking for any advice.
    My advice: Drop Dex to 12 to get you AL compliant. Tempest grants all martial weapon proficiency; use them. Sure, warhammers are iconic, but not everything can be bashed to death... I suggest grabbing a longsword and rapier for slashing and piercing damage respectively. All do a d8 when used S&B, and all can be used with strength, so there's no loss of DPR. Depending on how your combats actually roll out, boost strength before wisdom if you're going to be in melee all the time. Use party supporting spells like Bless instead of blasting with lightning. OTOH, if you find that by 4th level, you're enjoying the blasting aspect more than going toe to toe, boost wisdom and nuke from range. You'll still be quite capable in melee when the inevitable happens and your AC will keep you safe. (I'm playing a melee capable bard with a 15 in my highest stat, and even with a +4 to hit from Dex and proficiency, I'm keeping up with the rest of the party.)


    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    Secondly if warcaster would be good for me or resilient feats.
    Both Warcaster and Resilient Con are great feats. In the end, which to choose depends a bit on how combat actually ends up. Presuming you drop Dex to 12, Resilient will boost your Con to 16 which will definitely help you survive, and will increase your likelihood of making concentration checks. If you find that you're still dropping the checks in combat, picking up Warcaster will definitely help. OTOH, if you're constantly finding yourself surrounded, Warcaster is great, allowing you to cast while still being combat capable. Don't assume to rely on the Opportunity Attack, however. Most things will Disengage instead of opening themselves up to an OA.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    Third was wondering if I should boost Wis first then try to get a feat then when I'm level 12 put a point into my con then put a point into STR so I can wear plate mail.
    Well, you're a dwarf, you can wear plate with no issues with a 3 Strength. Boost your strength if you want to be better at melee - but if your plan is to just be a tank with spells, leaving your strength at 14 is fine.
    Last edited by Theodoxus; 2017-08-10 at 07:31 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Hmmmmm not sure how i got the messed up. I'll take my Dex back down before first session.

    So I've found out that the rest of my party will be the paladin a Dex based melee fighter a bard and a wizard. The bard I'm told plans to mostly be buffing the party. So I'm thinking most of the time I will spend doing some blasting and some healing then protecting back line or moving up to front if to many bodies. None of that sounds original be we are pretty much all new.

    So I think I will go with resilient Con at lvl 4 then raise my wisdom. If we make it to higher levels will probably put 2 more in strength then grab warcaster.

    And thanks for the reminder I had forgotten that dwarves don't reduce their speed for not meeting armor STR

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKrylo View Post
    Hmmmmm not sure how i got the messed up. I'll take my Dex back down before first session.

    So I've found out that the rest of my party will be the paladin a Dex based melee fighter a bard and a wizard. The bard I'm told plans to mostly be buffing the party. So I'm thinking most of the time I will spend doing some blasting and some healing then protecting back line or moving up to front if to many bodies. None of that sounds original be we are pretty much all new.

    So I think I will go with resilient Con at lvl 4 then raise my wisdom. If we make it to higher levels will probably put 2 more in strength then grab warcaster.

    And thanks for the reminder I had forgotten that dwarves don't reduce their speed for not meeting armor STR
    I play Dwarf mostly in 5e so far but itook a while for that last to sink in.

    It is a nice trait to have.
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  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Hey, looking for some guidance on a War Domain build. I'm currently level 1 Mountain Dwarf with the following stats:

    Str: 16
    Dex: 10
    Con: 16
    Int: 8
    Wis: 15
    Cha: 10

    I'm in a campaign that will go into Temple of Elemental Evil. Other party members are an archer Ranger, Wizard (unknown future school), and a Paladin. I'm looking to go into fighter for at least three levels. My primary fighting method is in the front lines with the Paladin. At lower levels I can cast bless and Spiritual Hammer. I was thinking of going 4 levels in cleric and picking up War Caster at level 4, and then do another 4 levels of cleric. At level 8 I'll pick up WIS +2. At level 9 go into fighter for 3 levels up to 11. At 11th level I'll go into Battlemaster. Then we'll see where things stand with the adventure. Not sure how viable war domain is vs. Tempest. From what I read Tempest is very strong especially with Booming blade (if picked up) and other niche spells. Thoughts?

    Thanks!

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcticzero View Post
    Hey, looking for some guidance on a War Domain build.
    It sounds like you've got a pretty strong idea of the build, and I'd agree with pretty much all the choices you outline.

    Here's the deal with War vs Tempest- War is better designed for big weapon damage on 2-handers or bows with the appropriate -5/+10 feat, whereas Tempest is better designed for big spell damage with something like a maximized shatter. A war cleric is still just as good with Guiding Bolt and eventually Flame Strike, and a Tempest Cleric is still quite skilled with weapons, though, so it's just a matter of emphasis. Basically do you want to focus on weapons or spells for your nova rounds?

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcticzero View Post
    At level 9 go into fighter for 3 levels up to 11. At 11th level I'll go into Battlemaster.
    Consider EK instead of Battlemaster. At 11th level, you'll have an extra 4th and a 5th level spell slot, and the ability to cast absorb elements and shield is likely better than any combat maneuvers you're going to get IMO. I played the "fighter/magic-user/cleric" build to EK 3/War Cleric 9 and it was a lot of fun. I planned on going to EK 11/Cleric 9, but the campaign didn't go that long.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    The more fighter levels you want the more EK gets better. For instance while at three you get some nice 1st level spells like shield and more spell slots at level 7 you can now use a cantrip and make a weapon attack which is some nice at will damage and you could be doing that with booming blade in melee (very thematic for a tempest cleric) or sacred flame for a ranged weapon user. Either way very nice.
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    The more fighter levels you want the more EK gets better. For instance while at three you get some nice 1st level spells like shield and more spell slots at level 7 you can now use a cantrip and make a weapon attack which is some nice at will damage and you could be doing that with booming blade in melee (very thematic for a tempest cleric) or sacred flame for a ranged weapon user. Either way very nice.
    I think you get more bang for buck in 1 Level of Druid actually, and its under rated..
    You get a lot of out of encounter spell options and you also unbelievably get Thunderwave and Fairy Fire which are massive spells.
    Thunderwave can be upgraded and Fairy Fire doesn't have to be on invisible enemies.

    And if you are Life Cleric with Life Berries from the day before then you don't need to use many healing spells, can concentrate on attacking spells like these as well as your attacking Cleric ones.
    Last edited by Bluemanarc; 2017-08-19 at 07:57 PM.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Is there a general community consensus on how Invoke Duplicity actually works?

    It's really not clear how real it is, and how enemies should interact with it -- can they see through it with an investigation check? Does interacting with it immediately reveal it as an illusion?

    My gut says 'yes' to that last part, but there's illusion spells like Arcane Mirage and Phantasmal Force that can withstand interaction.

    Honestly pure RAW, reading it, it seems like enemies automatically realise it's an illusion and don't treat it like they're attacking a person -- they can get distracted by it if it's close to you, but they don't attack it like they might another illusion.

    How I treat it as a DM:
    1) since it's a perfect duplicate, perception/investigation can't figure it out
    2) interaction with it immediately reveals it as an illusion
    3) if somebody doesn't know it's an illusion, they'll interact with it like a new person appearing

    Does this square with how y'all are using it?

  15. - Top - End - #555
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Finieous View Post
    Consider EK instead of Battlemaster. At 11th level, you'll have an extra 4th and a 5th level spell slot, and the ability to cast absorb elements and shield is likely better than any combat maneuvers you're going to get IMO. I played the "fighter/magic-user/cleric" build to EK 3/War Cleric 9 and it was a lot of fun. I planned on going to EK 11/Cleric 9, but the campaign didn't go that long.
    EK 3 / War Cleric 9 sounds like a nice fit as well. I'll see how the campaign goes and how my character's synergy works out. We just started today at level 1 so we have a ways to go.

    Thanks for advise.

  16. - Top - End - #556
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I actually think that polearm master is also viable for nature clerics due to them often like using a staff and not just war and tempest clerics.
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  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I actually think that polearm master is also viable for nature clerics due to them often like using a staff and not just war and tempest clerics.
    Within Cleric I'd agree, but overall something like Fighter or Barbarian, or even Paladin, has more class support for that type of build. But yeah, PAM Clerics can certainly work.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Within Cleric I'd agree, but overall something like Fighter or Barbarian, or even Paladin, has more class support for that type of build. But yeah, PAM Clerics can certainly work.
    I think PAM clerics is not efficient, clerics already have a ton of bonus actions. That is usually a lot better than PAM. Need to cast healing word or spiritual weapon, no PAM. To add to it the additional damage at level 8 only applies to 1 attack so I just can't back a PAM build when feats are so scarce.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Concentration question:

    If you are a Varian Human who will stand next to a Paladin from L6 with +3 to Saves.

    Do you need just Warcaster at L1 and then go for +2 Wisdom at L4 and then Resilient Con at L8

    Or best to hold off Wisdom for L8

    This for a Spiritual Hammer / Spirit Guardians kind of guy

  20. - Top - End - #560
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemanarc View Post
    Concentration question:

    If you are a Varian Human who will stand next to a Paladin from L6 with +3 to Saves.

    Do you need just Warcaster at L1 and then go for +2 Wisdom at L4 and then Resilient Con at L8

    Or best to hold off Wisdom for L8

    This for a Spiritual Hammer / Spirit Guardians kind of guy
    I generally prefer to max Wis before going for feats other than Warcaster on pretty much all versions of Cleric, but neither option is terrible.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    About to play a cleric - the rest of the party for Hoard of the Dragon Queen is a Paladin, a Monk, and a Wizard, so I think some healing is needed for the meat grinder, plus ranged; therefore, Dex-Cleric.

    I figure a wood-elf war cleric, Acolyte background, fits the bill pretty well.
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    About to play a cleric - the rest of the party for Hoard of the Dragon Queen is a Paladin, a Monk, and a Wizard, so I think some healing is needed for the meat grinder, plus ranged; therefore, Dex-Cleric.

    I figure a wood-elf war cleric, Acolyte background, fits the bill pretty well.
    Valid, you'll get some use out of the longbow, with the bonus action attack sometimes.
    I think you'll get more benefit from a scaling cantrip, and suggest you look at Arcana domain, and the arcana domain builds that are posted about.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    One note about clerics, is that they aren't exactly meant to keep your party HP at max during the day. You use short rests and Hit Dies for that, at most. Cleric's Prayer of Healing as well as the Bard's Song of Recovery feature help with that, but they are not the major source of healing during short rests.

    What clerics are good at is emergencial healing. Healing Word for the fallen Comrage, Revivify in case a death happens. Mass Healing Word to avoid a TPK. In fact, a cleric with Deathward on could save the day after an otherwise TPK by surviving while he heals his friends.

    I make this distinction, because up to this day there's still plenty of players that believe a cleric should use his spell slots to heal the other party members. Even in combat. And that's honestly a very poor use of a cleric.
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudu View Post
    One note about clerics, is that they aren't exactly meant to keep your party HP at max during the day. You use short rests and Hit Dies for that, at most. Cleric's Prayer of Healing as well as the Bard's Song of Recovery feature help with that, but they are not the major source of healing during short rests.

    What clerics are good at is emergencial healing. Healing Word for the fallen Comrage, Revivify in case a death happens. Mass Healing Word to avoid a TPK. In fact, a cleric with Deathward on could save the day after an otherwise TPK by surviving while he heals his friends.

    I make this distinction, because up to this day there's still plenty of players that believe a cleric should use his spell slots to heal the other party members. Even in combat. And that's honestly a very poor use of a cleric.
    Great points. Unless your allies are down or nearly down it's generally a better use of your action to attack the baddie with weapon or spell. Your CC options as a Cleric are limited, and most of your best buffs are either pre-combat (Death Ward) or first round (Bless) type options, so most rounds you'll be going full offense.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Great points. Unless your allies are down or nearly down it's generally a better use of your action to attack the baddie with weapon or spell. Your CC options as a Cleric are limited, and most of your best buffs are either pre-combat (Death Ward) or first round (Bless) type options, so most rounds you'll be going full offense.
    I want to add that if your tank is a raging barbarian the calculus changes again since every hps healed is basically two so heal away on the barbarian, particularly if you are a life cleric.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I'm trying to decide how to build my Vuman arcana cleric of Mystra. I have a 32 pb so my stats are 10/14/14/10/16/14. We're only hitting level 15, so I'll miss out on the level 17 ability. I am thinking of multiclassing into sorcerer and focusing on non-save spells so I can ignore cha. How effective would a cleric 8/sorcerer 7 be? Could I contribute well by only upcasting low level spells or are my higher level spells more worth it?

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudu View Post
    One note about clerics, is that they aren't exactly meant to keep your party HP at max during the day. You use short rests and Hit Dies for that, at most. Cleric's Prayer of Healing as well as the Bard's Song of Recovery feature help with that, but they are not the major source of healing during short rests.

    What clerics are good at is emergencial healing. Healing Word for the fallen Comrage, Revivify in case a death happens. Mass Healing Word to avoid a TPK. In fact, a cleric with Deathward on could save the day after an otherwise TPK by surviving while he heals his friends.

    I make this distinction, because up to this day there's still plenty of players that believe a cleric should use his spell slots to heal the other party members. Even in combat. And that's honestly a very poor use of a cleric.
    And on our way into Greenest, second battle, the kobolds got lucky and dropped TWO critical hits, on different party members, plus a bunch more hits - and I used both of my L1 slots just to keep us alive long enough to reach the keep. HotDQ is like that; there's a lot of places where you can't logically take a short rest.
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Elric VIII View Post
    I'm trying to decide how to build my Vuman arcana cleric of Mystra. I have a 32 pb so my stats are 10/14/14/10/16/14. We're only hitting level 15, so I'll miss out on the level 17 ability. I am thinking of multiclassing into sorcerer and focusing on non-save spells so I can ignore cha. How effective would a cleric 8/sorcerer 7 be? Could I contribute well by only upcasting low level spells or are my higher level spells more worth it?
    unless you're specifically aiming for a particular level 4 sorcerer spell, i'd probably go 9 cleric/6 sorc. level 5 cleric spells have some pretty nice options imo. i mean, if dimension door and greater invisibility are things you were really dreaming of, then go right ahead, but i think level 9 cleric is pretty good... it gives you 3 more prepared cleric spells, access to restoration (which basically is the "fix everything that doesn't need wish" spell) and raise dead (if you can't raise someone immediately because you lack spell slots, time, or components, access to this is a pretty significant thing).

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    And on our way into Greenest, second battle, the kobolds got lucky and dropped TWO critical hits, on different party members, plus a bunch more hits - and I used both of my L1 slots just to keep us alive long enough to reach the keep. HotDQ is like that; there's a lot of places where you can't logically take a short rest.
    That's one of the reasons why I prepare Cure Wounds anyway. Cure Wounds, in fact, is healing great at lvl 1, since everyone is down to 10 something HP or even single digit.

    Also, that's why I argue lvl 1 is terrible for a session. I'm yet to play a session with a lvl 1 character that I really enjoyed. For veterans, you're limited to resources you already know off, so it's unexciting. Which makes many argue that lvl 1 is perfect for new players. But it's even worse for them. What happens when the kobold crits you 8 HP adventurer? Yes, he might fall with that lucky strike... from a kobold.
    Spoiler: Current Characters
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    Nicollo Corleone - The Scoundrel Malconvoker

    Dante Levasseur - The Crimsom Inquisitor (avatar) and his Lumi cohort, Eveline Dawn now being followed by an old acquaintance, Aurora, the voice of Barachiel.

    Minaerva - The Wild Caller from Rokiri Island.


    Requiem Macabre Doc

  30. - Top - End - #570
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Yorrin's Avatar

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    Mar 2010

    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Elric VIII View Post
    I'm trying to decide how to build my Vuman arcana cleric of Mystra. I have a 32 pb so my stats are 10/14/14/10/16/14. We're only hitting level 15, so I'll miss out on the level 17 ability. I am thinking of multiclassing into sorcerer and focusing on non-save spells so I can ignore cha. How effective would a cleric 8/sorcerer 7 be? Could I contribute well by only upcasting low level spells or are my higher level spells more worth it?
    Honestly... you're better off going single class of either. Full casters are pretty dependent on spell access for staying "on-curve." The multi could work with very specific setups: for example use arcana to get a cantrip that is boosted by draconic sorcerer, so that at Cleric 8/Sorc 6 you're getting +Wis and +Cha... but you're focusing a build on cantrip damage at that point, which is something that only Warlocks should focus on.
    Last edited by Yorrin; 2017-09-01 at 08:18 PM.

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