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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Whys the human light cleric picking up war caster?
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rfkannen View Post
    Whys the human light cleric picking up war caster?
    I expect it's primarily to get advantage on Concentration saving thows. Popping off a Guiding Bolt as a reaction might be nice too.
    Last edited by hymer; 2014-10-22 at 01:48 PM.
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rfkannen View Post
    Whys the human light cleric picking up war caster?
    A couple of reasons. For one- he's actually got room for it. For two- he's more dependent on his spells than the others, so having advantage on Concentration checks is more significant for him. For three- as a magic focused character he's more likely to take advantage of that AO with an Inflict Wounds or similar than a more martial Cleric that would just use a weapon.

    I've noticed people tend to think of the feat as a weapon-focused magic user thing, but that's just one of many things the feat does and it seems to be just as focused if not moreso on those without martial weapons to lean on.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    A couple of reasons. For one- he's actually got room for it. For two- he's more dependent on his spells than the others, so having advantage on Concentration checks is more significant for him. For three- as a magic focused character he's more likely to take advantage of that AO with an Inflict Wounds or similar than a more martial Cleric that would just use a weapon.

    I've noticed people tend to think of the feat as a weapon-focused magic user thing, but that's just one of many things the feat does and it seems to be just as focused if not moreso on those without martial weapons to lean on.

    Cool I have a half elf light cleric, and I think ill grab it as my first feat then.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rfkannen View Post
    Cool I have a half elf light cleric, and I think ill grab it as my first feat then.
    A solid choice.

    I've also added quick Knowledge and Nature examples to the builds.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Update: added Death Domain
    (which was posted here)

    It's a solid overall domain- one of my favorites, in fact.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Here's how I plan to build my cleric. Maybe you can add it to the list or explain why it's suboptimal.

    STR 16 CON 16 DEX 10 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 10
    Variant Human Life Domain Resilient: CON
    At level 4 boost WIS to 16, then bump CON to 20 and take War Caster and toughness at some point. Otherwise drop toughness and leave CON at 18 to have STR and WIS at 18 too. Focus on healing and Concentration spells and buffs. Being nearly unkillable and insanely hard to break your concentration is the goal. Spirit Guardians (your bread-and-butter) will be a bit easier to save against, but it still does half on save and you can be sure you and the spell will be up for the entire 10 minute duration!

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBear View Post
    Here's how I plan to build my cleric. Maybe you can add it to the list or explain why it's suboptimal.

    STR 16 CON 16 DEX 10 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 10
    Variant Human Life Domain Resilient: CON
    At level 4 boost WIS to 16, then bump CON to 20 and take War Caster and toughness at some point. Otherwise drop toughness and leave CON at 18 to have STR and WIS at 18 too. Focus on healing and Concentration spells and buffs. Being nearly unkillable and insanely hard to break your concentration is the goal. Spirit Guardians (your bread-and-butter) will be a bit easier to save against, but it still does half on save and you can be sure you and the spell will be up for the entire 10 minute duration!
    Out of curiosity, how did you end up with those stats? Because a Hill Dwarf with Con 16+/Wis 16+ would be more optimal for "nearly unkillable." My biggest concern about your build in general is low starting Wis. That being said, it's not a bad build for a thuggish healer, I'm just nitpicking at your request. I'm assuming you're planning to work toward Full Plate + Shied + Battleaxe/Warhammer/Longsword in terms of at-will offense?

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Out of curiosity, how did you end up with those stats? Because a Hill Dwarf with Con 16+/Wis 16+ would be more optimal for "nearly unkillable." My biggest concern about your build in general is low starting Wis. That being said, it's not a bad build for a thuggish healer, I'm just nitpicking at your request. I'm assuming you're planning to work toward Full Plate + Shied + Battleaxe/Warhammer/Longsword in terms of at-will offense?
    Point buy gives me 15 14 14 10 10 8. Racial +1 to STR and CON, plus Resilient:CON gives another +1. Hill Dwarf gives the same stats but I have to wait 3-7 levels for Resilient and I miss out on a feat like Toughness. VHuman gets more HP and starts with a better CON save early game, HDwarf gets a couple weapon proficiencies and res/adv vs poison. Minor differences, both races work. My cleric is a human for fluff reasons.

    The low starting WIS is acceptable because I will be doing most of my damage at low levels in melee and saving my spells for healing (buffed by domain) and buffs like Bless/SoF. I get the boost at 4 just in time for Spirit Guardians. Starting with the 16 in STR instead means my melee is a credible threat early game and I'm fully mobile in full-plate from the start. I've had several DMs hand out magic plate armor as early as level 2.

    Endgame I will still be rocking a mace and shield. Taking a feat to roll a d8 instead of a d6 once per turn is a waste, and being a cleric of Selune whose favored weapon is a mace this works perfectly.
    Last edited by ZenBear; 2015-01-17 at 10:56 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBear View Post
    Point buy gives me 15 14 14 10 10 8. Racial +1 to STR and CON, plus Resilient:CON gives another +1. Hill Dwarf gives the same stats but I have to wait 3-7 levels for Resilient and I miss out on a feat like Toughness. VHuman gets more HP and starts with a better CON save early game, HDwarf gets a couple weapon proficiencies and res/adv vs poison. Minor differences, both races work. My cleric is a human for fluff reasons.

    The low starting WIS is acceptable because I will be doing most of my damage at low levels in melee and saving my spells for healing (buffed by domain) and buffs like Bless/SoF. I get the boost at 4 just in time for Spirit Guardians. Starting with the 16 in STR instead means my melee is a credible threat early game and I'm fully mobile in full-plate from the start. I've had several DMs hand out magic plate armor as early as level 2.

    Endgame I will still be rocking a mace and shield. Taking a feat to roll a d8 instead of a d6 once per turn is a waste, and being a cleric of Selune whose favored weapon is a mace this works perfectly.
    Fair enough. Sounds like a solid build. The main reason I suggested Dwarf over VHuman for your build was the bonus hp that can't be replicated by any other race, but you've got a pretty good setup going on here.

    And sorry about the weapon thing- it was a brain fart on my part about proficiencies. But yeah, sounds like a solid and fun build overall. Especially if you're getting early Plate access.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Fair enough. Sounds like a solid build. The main reason I suggested Dwarf over VHuman for your build was the bonus hp that can't be replicated by any other race, but you've got a pretty good setup going on here.

    And sorry about the weapon thing- it was a brain fart on my part about proficiencies. But yeah, sounds like a solid and fun build overall. Especially if you're getting early Plate access.
    Danka! My biggest concern is that the offensive stats (STR/WIS) never get capped, which seems to be the cardinal requirement of every viable build for all classes. If you leave CON at 14 and only take Resilient and War Caster you can cap them, but you sacrifice a fair bit of survivability and concentration security.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBear View Post
    Danka! My biggest concern is that the offensive stats (STR/WIS) never get capped, which seems to be the cardinal requirement of every viable build for all classes. If you leave CON at 14 and only take Resilient and War Caster you can cap them, but you sacrifice a fair bit of survivability and concentration security.
    Well, there are two major schools of thought regarding that- the first, as you've said, is "CAP STATS NAO!" at the cost of all else. This has the advantage of being very good at the smaller number of things you do. The other extreme that I've heard supported on these very boards is "Forego all stat bumps because feats are always better!" This has the advantage of providing much more flexibility in a build, but at the cost of overall effectiveness. While I myself actually lean toward the stats side, I think you've found a happy medium of being within 5% effectiveness of a maxed build while still pursuing a worthwhile feat-based goal. I'd advise sticking with the 3 18s build with War Caster and Resilient.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Just wanted to publicly thank Yorrin for this guide and for his help with getting my 5e cleric set up correctly.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Well, there are two major schools of thought regarding that- the first, as you've said, is "CAP STATS NAO!" at the cost of all else. This has the advantage of being very good at the smaller number of things you do. The other extreme that I've heard supported on these very boards is "Forego all stat bumps because feats are always better!" This has the advantage of providing much more flexibility in a build, but at the cost of overall effectiveness. While I myself actually lean toward the stats side, I think you've found a happy medium of being within 5% effectiveness of a maxed build while still pursuing a worthwhile feat-based goal. I'd advise sticking with the 3 18s build with War Caster and Resilient.
    3 18's is a loss of 1 to CON saves and a whopping 60 hp at lvl 20 for a gain of 1 to attacks and spell saves... Perhaps that much hp is a little overkill though lol. Thanks for the advice and again, a great guide!

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Nod_Hero View Post
    Just wanted to publicly thank Yorrin for this guide and for his help with getting my 5e cleric set up correctly.
    Thanks, Nod!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBear View Post
    3 18's is a loss of 1 to CON saves and a whopping 60 hp at lvl 20 for a gain of 1 to attacks and spell saves... Perhaps that much hp is a little overkill though lol. Thanks for the advice and again, a great guide!
    Well, if you're that concerned about 18s you can always save your last feat for the last possible decision point between that or stats, and then decide if you'll need it. Either way, glad to help!

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quick question about multiple creature healing spells (Prayer of Healing, etc).
    Do they roll the 2d8 for themselves?
    If I roll, do I roll the 2d8 separately for each creature or is it one roll heals that amount for all?

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Nod_Hero View Post
    Quick question about multiple creature healing spells (Prayer of Healing, etc).
    Do they roll the 2d8 for themselves?
    If I roll, do I roll the 2d8 separately for each creature or is it one roll heals that amount for all?
    You roll once and apply it to all targets (based on the rule on page 196 for damaging multiple targets). Technically that's only the rule for damage, not healing, but I can't imagine that healing would be any different and I can't find any rule to the contrary.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    The reason that rule exists is to make things quicker on the table. To me that is a good reason to apply that damage rule to healing.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    One of my favorite builds is a Strength/Wisdom or Dex/Wisdom based Cleric as the main set up and dash in a sprinkle of Rogue.

    Take the Healer feat.

    So now you have a very mobile cleric that frees up spell slots with the healer feat.

    I'm actually building a new one now. Might experiment with a Rogue/Barbarian/Cleric build at some time but I'll stick with Rogue/Cleric.

    Thanks for the guide, I'll use this to help out a bit :)

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I actually enjoyed these and now i want to make a Death cleric, but i don't know if my DM would allow me, i will have to ask...

    DEX based Cleric, here i come°!
    Last edited by Maxilian; 2015-01-20 at 02:20 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    You should add Aasimar from the DMG as a race, as they are designed to be clerics. Elderan or whatever too I suppose.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    You should add Aasimar from the DMG as a race, as they are designed to be clerics. Elderan or whatever too I suppose.
    Good call. I knew I was forgetting something. It will be up within the hour.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Good call. I knew I was forgetting something. It will be up within the hour.
    The issue is that Aasimars get +2 Cha a dump stat for the 5e Cleric... I guess if you are going for a face cleric it will work out but... Meh.

    The spells that the Aasimars get are pretty useless for a race that gets dark vision.

    The Aasimar makes a pretty pathetic race for Cleric. The only redeeming qualities it gives you is the Resistances... And they aren't that popular of damage types.

    I would take the Eladrin over the Aasimar, Fey Step is at least useful.

    Edit:
    I missed lesser restoration, that's a good spell but you are a cleric... If you want that spell it wouldn't be that hard...
    Last edited by CrusaderJoe; 2015-01-20 at 08:35 PM.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    The issue is that Aasimars get +2 Cha a dump stat for the 5e Cleric... I guess if you are going for a face cleric it will work out but... Meh.

    The spells that the Aasimars get are pretty useless for a race that gets dark vision.

    The Aasimar makes a pretty pathetic race for Cleric. The only redeeming qualities it gives you is the Resistances... And they aren't that popular of damage types.

    I would take the Eladrin over the Aasimar, Fey Step is at least useful.

    Edit:
    I missed lesser restoration, that's a good spell but you are a cleric... If you want that spell it wouldn't be that hard...
    Which is why I put it as a "meh" option. It's not completely useless the way Tiefling is, but it's hardly "built for Cleric" the way the designers seem to think from the way it's written.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    First, super thanks for this!!

    Second, I'm a bit new to D&D and so not sure about all the rules.. But I'm curious why the cleric has charisma as a proficient saving throw? Seems this is a dump stat since wisdom is your spellcasting stat? Maybe I'm just not understanding... Or if I'm planning Life domain, is dex the dump stat?

    Thanks for any clarification!

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Yor will be along to give better answers but I can say with certainty that Dex should never be the dump stat. It's just too darn important to take a penalty in.
    Last edited by Nod_Hero; 2015-01-27 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Finrag View Post
    First, super thanks for this!!

    Second, I'm a bit new to D&D and so not sure about all the rules.. But I'm curious why the cleric has charisma as a proficient saving throw? Seems this is a dump stat since wisdom is your spellcasting stat? Maybe I'm just not understanding... Or if I'm planning Life domain, is dex the dump stat?

    Thanks for any clarification!
    Nod is right, never completely dump Dex- it's too well rounded of a stat in 5e. If you're not focusing on it I advise a Dex of 14.

    The reason Clerics are proficient in Cha despite it being their dump stat, is because in previous editions it was a secondary stat for them. So it's a legacy thing. For example in 3.5 Turn Undead was Cha based, and in 4e there were some secondary rider effects for Clerics with Cha.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Nod is right, never completely dump Dex- it's too well rounded of a stat in 5e. If you're not focusing on it I advise a Dex of 14.

    The reason Clerics are proficient in Cha despite it being their dump stat, is because in previous editions it was a secondary stat for them. So it's a legacy thing. For example in 3.5 Turn Undead was Cha based, and in 4e there were some secondary rider effects for Clerics with Cha.
    Also this edition all classes get one "primary" save : Dex, Con, or Wis
    and a secondary save : Str, Int, or Cha

    Charisma fits with the legacy of the cleric better, when there turning attempts were based around charisma. And they need to have high charisma to lead there flock of followers of whatever gods they worship.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Observant should be added to the list of Feats that could be taken. +1 Wis is nothing to sneeze at and if you get proficiency in Perception you are looking at +20 passive Perception from the start (Variant Human). Hard for things to NOT be noticed by you. Plus the ability to read lips can come in handy as can a high passive Investigation.

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mostlymad View Post
    Observant should be added to the list of Feats that could be taken. +1 Wis is nothing to sneeze at and if you get proficiency in Perception you are looking at +20 passive Perception from the start (Variant Human). Hard for things to NOT be noticed by you. Plus the ability to read lips can come in handy as can a high passive Investigation.
    Sure, I'll give it a mention.

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