The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

[Endarire]

Alert is still worth a feat. It's +5 initiative which is HUGE! And it gives other stuff.

Silence is a spiffy spell for muting casters, but also for preventing noise from entering an area. Want to sneak past a sleeping dragon/guard/golem? Silence that area! The spell may only delay a caster for one round, but that one round may be enough to incapacitate him otherwise!

[CrusaderJoe]

I'm trying to flesh out my Rodeo Master and I've decided to go cleric.

Stout Halfling Urchin Fighter (Battle Master) 5/Rogue (Thief) 4/Cleric (War) 11

The levels of cleric are fantastic. Hold spells and blade barrier make a fine addition to my build. War domain is just so fantastic with this. My nova is something like... 7d8 + 2d6 + 15

31.5 + 7 + 15 = Avg = 53

Or I'll replace 2d8+Dex mod damage (weapon attack and BM dice) and replace it with... Harm (14d6, save half) I'll do this attack first so my weapon attack may kill...

39 + 14d6 = 39+49 = 88 dmg once per day.

Oh, +20 dmg (or 10 if save) for Guardian of faith. 8 hour spell that I really like.

Potential = 108

Cleric was a nice add on. With this I wouldn't be using my concentration on anything. I would probably use it on a hold spell or divine favor (1d4 dmg)...

110 average Nova isn't too shabby.

But my character isn't about damage, but I guess if I need to...

[Yorrin]

Alert is still worth a feat. It's +5 initiative which is HUGE! And it gives other stuff.

Silence is a spiffy spell for muting casters, but also for preventing noise from entering an area. Want to sneak past a sleeping dragon/guard/golem? Silence that area! The spell may only delay a caster for one round, but that one round may be enough to incapacitate him otherwise!

I agree with you on Silence, thus why it got a good rating. But I must beg to differ on Alert. Other than level one where PCs can get killed in a single hit the only people that really care about initiative enough to spend a feat on it are Assassin Rogues and a few niche Bard builds.

Rodeo Master

Sounds like a fun character. Glad Cleric could help you out so much

[Yorrin]

Elemental Evil races added. Also put some dividers in the race section, to help people keep track of where to find each of them.

[Nod_Hero]

Elemental Evil races added. Also put some dividers in the race section, to help people keep track of where to find each of them.

Thanks for staying on top of it.
So how long until you have Elemental Evil spell ratings done?

[Giant2005]

Thanks for staying on top of it.
So how long until you have Elemental Evil spell ratings done?

There are no Elemental Evil Cleric spells.

[Yorrin]

There are no Elemental Evil Cleric spells.

I think (hope?) he was being sarcastic

[Galen]

I think (hope?) he was being sarcastic

Unfortunately, he wasn't.

[Nod_Hero]

Unfortunately, he wasn't.

I so was!

[Theodoxus]

Hope this isn't construed as raising the dead...

I'm building a character for an upcoming Red Hand of Doom 5th Ed conversion game. Thinking of going Life, but was considering a few options regarding race and multiclass.

We're starting at 4th level.

My first thought was Hill Dwarf, for warhammer & shield fun. Pretty basic, but effective.

Then I thought, maybe I should take a level in fighter, for the Protection fighting style and additional martial weapons profs. But then I was thinking, which would be better, 1st level fighter for Con saves or 1st level cleric for Wis saves.

Then that got me spiraling into 'do I go VHuman instead for the feat (perhaps magic initiate for shillelagh?)... or perhaps go Barb at 1st for the HP boost' and now I'm in a state of paralysis by analysis.

I know I want to stick with Life. Outside of that, I'd like to be effective, though not outshine the other players (there will be a monk (don't know tradition), a moon druid and probably warlock, though possibly rogue) in melee.

I don't know stat gen yet - might be PB, might be 4d6D1, might be 1d8+7...

Have played with the DM as players in a number of games, he's big on side plots and obfuscation. First time he's DMed this particular group of people - so I don't know his style or how open he'll be with items/magic

I've heard RHoD is pretty intense; survival is key to me. Hence the HDwarf/Barb HP angle.

Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Yorrin]

Hope this isn't construed as raising the dead...

I assume handbooks get a little leeway here...

I'm building a character for an upcoming Red Hand of Doom 5th Ed conversion game. Thinking of going Life, but was considering a few options regarding race and multiclass.

We're starting at 4th level.

My first thought was Hill Dwarf, for warhammer & shield fun. Pretty basic, but effective.

Then I thought, maybe I should take a level in fighter, for the Protection fighting style and additional martial weapons profs. But then I was thinking, which would be better, 1st level fighter for Con saves or 1st level cleric for Wis saves.

Then that got me spiraling into 'do I go VHuman instead for the feat (perhaps magic initiate for shillelagh?)... or perhaps go Barb at 1st for the HP boost' and now I'm in a state of paralysis by analysis.

I know I want to stick with Life. Outside of that, I'd like to be effective, though not outshine the other players (there will be a monk (don't know tradition), a moon druid and probably warlock, though possibly rogue) in melee.

I don't know stat gen yet - might be PB, might be 4d6D1, might be 1d8+7...

Have played with the DM as players in a number of games, he's big on side plots and obfuscation. First time he's DMed this particular group of people - so I don't know his style or how open he'll be with items/magic

I've heard RHoD is pretty intense; survival is key to me. Hence the HDwarf/Barb HP angle.

Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Options!

First of all, if you're starting at 4th then VHuman loses his edge rather quickly, so stick with Dwarf. I'm not familiar with RHoD specifically, so I can't comment on the content or relative deadliness, but Barbarian multiclass for survivability seems a bit like overkill since you'll already have heavy armor Prof. and most of your "I heal myself" features. My advice, therefore, with the options you're considering, is straight Cleric.

[ChubbyRain]

The cleric may be the best single target magic damage dealing caster, when you aren't trying to be a blaster.

I made a dwarven criminal knowledge cleric who was Wis/Con/Dex based. Took a couple damage spells just in case. Guiding Bolt and Inflict wounds looked fun.

Main tactic was to run around giving advantage (help action) and using Command to have some fun. However once things went... South (only one not paralyzed or down for the count) , I had to kill since I had no one to support. Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt in 3rd level slots? Holy hell 6d6 radiant (range) guiding bolt first really messed up the boss and then I followed it up with Inflict Wounds 5d10 the next turn as I got into melee (advantage due to guiding bolt). I had an AC of 17 so the boss was having issues hitting me. I rolled well, slightly above average on both damage rolls, but that's normal for everyone in my group (oddly enough).

I didn't even try to make a blaster and yet that's how we survived. My domain and other class features were not going to help against this target as my mental spells stopped being effective against it.

The cleric might be the most accidental broken class out there. You almost have to try in order to make a cleric that doesn't contribute to the game.

[TrexPushups]

The cleric may be the best single target magic damage dealing caster, when you aren't trying to be a blaster.

I made a dwarven criminal knowledge cleric who was Wis/Con/Dex based. Took a couple damage spells just in case. Guiding Bolt and Inflict wounds looked fun.

Main tactic was to run around giving advantage (help action) and using Command to have some fun. However once things went... South (only one not paralyzed or down for the count) , I had to kill since I had no one to support. Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt in 3rd level slots? Holy hell 6d6 radiant (range) guiding bolt first really messed up the boss and then I followed it up with Inflict Wounds 5d10 the next turn as I got into melee (advantage due to guiding bolt). I had an AC of 17 so the boss was having issues hitting me. I rolled well, slightly above average on both damage rolls, but that's normal for everyone in my group (oddly enough).

I didn't even try to make a blaster and yet that's how we survived. My domain and other class features were not going to help against this target as my mental spells stopped being effective against it.

The cleric might be the most accidental broken class out there. You almost have to try in order to make a cleric that doesn't contribute to the game.

Eh, 5d10 is about 25 damage typically which is about the damage an 18 str 5th level fighter with a great sword and the great weapon specialization does every turn if he doesn't miss.

[Yorrin]

Eh, 5d10 is about 25 damage typically which is about the damage an 18 str 5th level fighter with a great sword and the great weapon specialization does every turn if he doesn't miss.

I think the point he was trying to make is that he could do good damage without it even being a build focus, unlike the Fighter in view here. Clerics are just all around good at several party roles (damage, healing, buffing) without having to specialize.

[ChubbyRain]

I think the point he was trying to make is that he could do good damage without it even being a build focus, unlike the Fighter in view here. Clerics are just all around good at several party roles (damage, healing, buffing) without having to specialize.

Yup, not only do you not have to specialize but you can specialize in another area and then still be decent in whatever other area you want to be in.

I don't mean just against the martial classes, they don't stand a chance in this regard. But the other caster classes may be able to specialize in certain things and out perform the Cleric, the cleric can specialize in anything and still keep up with anything else.

Average damage may be lower, but you only need to bring a monster to 0hp, any excess damage is wasted damage. Cleric may not one shot as many enemies as a Wizard or Sorcerer but they will do enough to stay effective.

So my knowledge cleric specializes in support and battlefield control, he can still pull out a spell that will kill a creature. What's great is they have a good 1 2 combo of Guiding Bolt and then you have advantage on your next attack roll. Guiding bolt and Inflict wounds that anyone would take. Inflict Wounds is iconic from earlier editions (I recall people taking it in 4e, even if it wasn't the optimal choice) and Guiding Bolt is a decent damage + party support spell (advantage on next attack versus the target).

[Yorrin]

Guiding Bolt is a decent damage + party support spell (advantage on next attack versus the target).

Yeah, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Guiding Bolt is the new spell of choice for most Clerics. Damage + Support like that is a fantastic usage out of a spell that can be cast right from level one. Bards have a similar thing going with Vicious Mockery, but not with nearly as much damage. Now if only we could get a Wis-based Vicious Mockery on a Cleric... (or I suppose a Bard might choose to raid Cleric for Guiding Bolt, but that's a harder sell, considering the wealth of options for that slot).

[TrexPushups]

The cleric is great, and extremely versatile. But at 5th level he only has two 3rd level slots. While the fighter can do that every round and even double his output when it counts.

Just making the point that while the cleric will never let you down in a pinch it isn't the same as having that stabby fighter.

[Nod_Hero]

If you're going with V-Human I'd look at the Warcaster feat. That way you can melee around in your heavy+shield and not have to worry when it comes to spellcasting time. Pop your holy symbol onto your shield and you're dressed for any occasion!

[ChubbyRain]

Yeah, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Guiding Bolt is the new spell of choice for most Clerics. Damage + Support like that is a fantastic usage out of a spell that can be cast right from level one. Bards have a similar thing going with Vicious Mockery, but not with nearly as much damage. Now if only we could get a Wis-based Vicious Mockery on a Cleric... (or I suppose a Bard might choose to raid Cleric for Guiding Bolt, but that's a harder sell, considering the wealth of options for that slot).

Well let's look at Guiding Bolt

Range Spell Attack (Wisdom)
Damage Type = Radiant
Initial Damage = 4d6
Critical Damage = 8d6
Additional Damage = +1d6/level
Rider = Advantage on next attack

So it gives us a ranged spell attack, rolling a d20 makes you feel like you have more control of your fate. The damage type is great, not many things you will be fighting will have radiant resistance, at least usually and if so then you are higher level. The initial damage is half a fireball, a level 3 spell, so not to shabby. The rider down right helps yourself and others. Advantage may be one of the easiest things to get, inspiration and DM choice and stuff, but a low level spell that gives it on a hit? Nice.

The only downside, somewhat, that I see with this spell is that you have to target AC with it. Luckily attacks outpace AC (not as fast as in 3e of course) but adult red dragons have AC 19, which means that even at level 1 with +5 to hit you have a decent shot at hitting with this spell. As I was saying though, the downside is that you can roll a 1 with the attack roll. However the upside that is that you can crit and your level 1 spell instantly does level 3 damage.

As you use higher level spell slots there is always the chance you will autofail, but there is always the chance for double damage. Spells with attack rolls do crit.

A good way to really make things awesome is to use Hold Person on a target. Get within 5' of the paralyzed creature. Then blast them with a level X Guiding Bolt, your attack is a critical hit (yes paralyzation allows for this on spells) and will do double damage. A fireball can't do that. 24d6 radiant damage for a level 9 spell isn't the most optimal way to kill something but for when you want to nuke something and you don't meteor swarm... This would work. Average of 87 damage isn't too bad, and as you set yourself up, your allies get the crits also.

Yeah Guiding Bolt is the primary cleric spell, at all levels.

===

The cleric is great, and extremely versatile. But at 5th level he only has two 3rd level slots. While the fighter can do that every round and even double his output when it counts.

Just making the point that while the cleric will never let you down in a pinch it isn't the same as having that stabby fighter.

Yeah but the cleric has Sacred Flame, a really good cantrip that deals 2d8 radiant damage at level 5. And if you are a knowledge or light cleric at level 8 you will be doing 2d8 + Wis (5) damage. As you level up the Cleric will be doing this at 3d8 and then 4d8, all adding wisdom modifier.

Damage is something everyone can do, the fighter is not special in any way when it comes to damage.

However the spell we were talking about with the cleric doesn't just do damage, it helps the team out too. This wasn't a Cleric versus Fighter debate just a Cleric can focus on anything else and still be able to do good damage without trying.

The Fighter is always specializing in damage, that is pretty much all they can do effectively. The cleric can focus on buff/support/debuff and still pull out some damage when needed. Other casters tend to have to have their class features focus on buffing their damage while the cleric does not. And remember I ran into Guiding Bolt + Inflict Wounds by accident, I wasn't even trying to optimize.

[Thalas Rath]

Please keep your inputs coming guys. I am enjoying every word.

I've been playing Clerics from 1st Edition, and I am still going to play them now in 5th Ed.

The comparison between fighters and clerics was a poor one. Fighters are meant to deal damage in melee/range using weapons. They cannot do the whole range of things that a Cleric can do - which is to cast spells unique to it. Its like comparing apples and oranges. You simply shouldn't.

[DireSickFish]

What do you think about cleric spells at levels 6+? In my group a lot of people are underwhelmed by the options they get compared to other full caster classes. They seem to lack the game changing aspect that a lot of other spells at this level have. One guy went so far as to start multiclassing wizard at lvl11 because he didn't want to stagnate.

[ChubbyRain]

Please keep your inputs coming guys. I am enjoying every word.

I've been playing Clerics from 1st Edition, and I am still going to play them now in 5th Ed.

The comparison between fighters and clerics was a poor one. Fighters are meant to deal damage in melee/range using weapons. They cannot do the whole range of things that a Cleric can do - which is to cast spells unique to it. Its like comparing apples and oranges. You simply shouldn't.

Problem is that they have a level system. A level X fighter has the same experience and can take on the same challenges as a level X cleric. Thus you MUST compare them at some point. This isn't about Fighter battling a Cleric. But each dealing with the game with their class features and abilities.

Fighters are meant to be the best fighters. This just isn't so in 5e. Sure they can use the most weapons and swing their pretty swords faster but fighting is more than that. In a battle/fight whomever is standing last is the victor. The Fighter may be able to deal damage but that is all they effectively have. A cleric can do damage, enough to keep up with a group, and has a ton of great spells. A Fighter isn't even better than a Rogue or Barbarian when it comes to non-apell fighting. I've seen more fighters be taken down than Barbarians and Rogues.

The biggest issue is that you can only effects tively create one type of fighter even with three subclasses. These are all direct damage dealers. A cleric can be made to do almost anything you want to build. This ranges from direct damage, to control, to utility, to buffing. They are a bit weak of the control but have more of it than the fighter.

Again this isn't about a fighter and cleric duking it out, but how they deal with the game. Hell look at it from the eyes of a DM. Which is harder to prepare for, by a long shot, the fighter or the cleric. The cleric can do direct damage and can do all the improve that the fighter can. However the cleric has a ton of spells and features that you need to take into account.

It is easy to deal with a fighter in combat, even with feats, but if you want to challenge a cleric... Well... It will be triple the work.

Anyways....

I ran a few different clerics in some games when some gamers I knew were down a player or two.

Human Outlander Tempest Cleric 16 (Polearm Master and Sentinel feats)

Hill Dwarf Urchin Trickster Cleric 4/Rogue 2

Half-Elf Soldier Death Cleric 8

I have to say that the death cleric was probably the most fun to play. Two targets for necro cantrips? 4d8 chill touch each round was great for a ranged attack at level 8. Really makes creatures scatter (crowd control). We really need more necromancy cantrips though. Funny enough Spare the Dying also works with this feature, might be worth taking if you can target two creatures at once.... Nevermind, no it isn't.

Edit

What do you think about cleric spells at levels 6+? In my group a lot of people are underwhelmed by the options they get compared to other full caster classes. They seem to lack the game changing aspect that a lot of other spells at this level have. One guy went so far as to start multiclassing wizard at lvl11 because he didn't want to stagnate.

They have the best core abilities in order to not multiclass and to be able to change up their style. From guiding bolt to being in melee to sitting back and buffing... Just depends on how the player plays the game.

If the DM is allowing that wizard to cheat and copy down higher than first level spells from the wizard side then yeah nothing is going to really beat that.

The game itself starts to stagnate if you went from level 1 to level 11, since most of it will be the exact same stuff over and over. This can happen for any class. This tends to happen around level 6 for most fighters and some barbarians that I've seen and other classes it just tends to vary.

What type of Cleric was the friend playing?

[recapdrake]

I just wanted to say thank you for not dumping on the Light domain like other people have been want to do.

[Yorrin]

I just wanted to say thank you for not dumping on the Light domain like other people have been want to do.

You're welcome? I wasn't aware anyone was discounting Light Domain. It's a solid blaster-caster with all the joys of clerical healing and buffing. Medium armor + shield give it great base AC as opposed to a sorcerer warlock or wizard, too. Good domain for a well rounded combat caster.

[KorvinStarmast]

The reason Clerics are proficient in Cha despite it being their dump stat, is because in previous editions it was a secondary stat for them. So it's a legacy thing. For example in 3.5 Turn Undead was Cha based, and in 4e there were some secondary rider effects for Clerics with Cha.

Not in all previous editions. Before 1st Ed A D & D, Charisma was often underused to not used, depending on the DM. Greyhawk's application of it to the Paladin was a real boost to them having put it into the game in the first place. Early versions of the game had the Druid as a cleric sub-class with a charisma min score requirement (13, I think it was. (IIRC that was in Eldritch Wizardry when it came out).

Back to basics on what a cleric is. Clerics are people persons.
D & D of any edition is a role playing game (thanks, Dave Arneson). Charisma as a stat (with potential bonuses or penalties) figures into interacting with other characters and particularly with NPCs. As this isn't a metrics based activity in the game, unlike a lot of combat, it may not be as easy to quantify in the advantage / disadvantage decisions.

Charisma boosts personal interaction skills. Consider that a cleric will usually be
1. A proponent of his deity/faith/religion
2. Trying to get a few followers or henchmen for same
3. Required to interact with NPCs as he gets higher in level
4. May have to accrue the loyalty of anyone looking after his/her chapel/temple/holy ground if he/she is off on a mission to once again smite the enemies of the Faith, the World, this Town, etcetera.

Clerics need people skills. It's in the job description.

There is more to Cha than a "dump stat" or "a turn undead booster.' (Pet Peeve: IMO, turn undead has been overly nerfed in 5e, but I have gotten over it). Turn undead didn't always use Cha

If the objective is the "min-max" approach, Charisma as a dump stat is understandable ... but taking that route establishes either that the campaign is RP light, or that the cleric role is taken on without thinking through the fundamental role of a cleric in a campaign setting: interacting with people.

Charisma: not necessarily a dump stat.

There are spell saves on a Charisma basis that a point or two of boost can't hurt. You don't want your cleric being controlled by someone else due to a negative save on an intimidation type of spell.

[blingking]

Wizard: Not much to gain from a dip. Minor Conjuration might be worth looking at, as would Portent. Improved Minor Illusion could fit some niche builds, and Light Domain Clerics might look as Sculpt Spells.

I think it's worth noting that Sculpt Spells can also be particularly devastating for Tempest Clerics using Destructive Wrath, so much so that you could base an entire build around it. Additionally, Familiars in general are arguably even more useful to Clerics than Wizards because their ability to administer touch spells effectively turns your best healing and status removal spells into ranged spells.

[D.U.P.A.]

Is there any index of these guides? They are very hard to find on this forum.

[MrStabby]

Is there any index of these guides? They are very hard to find on this forum.

This might help?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...for-5E-D-amp-D

[D.U.P.A.]

This might help?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...for-5E-D-amp-D

Ah now I noticed that the link to that thread is finally in the sticky.

[Yorrin]

Ah now I noticed that the link to that thread is finally in the sticky.

It's about time, too. That thread has more views than nearly the rest of the board combined, with a few major exceptions (one of which is this thread ).